how strong is tobirama really?

[WolfHaley]

As in; Minato's move set means he can take on more enemy's than Tobirama and win (mainly because of the lack of screen time for Tobirama.). But Minato isn't beating Tobirama.

 

[Bogard]

As in; Minato's move set means he can take on more enemy's than Tobirama and win (mainly because of the lack of screen time for Tobirama.). But Minato isn't beating Tobirama.

How? He is faster, powerful close range jutsu(Rasengan), better mobility and versatility with space-time jutsu, superior summons, sealing techniques and a trump card(Sage Mode)

 

[Conspirator.]

We can nor definelity say, that Tobirama is also good at Edo Tensei like Kabuto-Orochimaru cuz i think they really are much better at it, with stronger summons.
Also when he will use Edo Tensei then he will not be able to fight himself, cuz he will have to control them with Handseals = He is just a spectator or his Edo Tensei will have there own will.

Hmm did he warp a Bijuudama ? I dont remember ( i am not hating, just asking, i really dont remember)

Not really. The weaker the edos, the easier to control. And tobirama didn't use his edos the way kabuto/orochimaru did. He used his edos to blow up battlefields.

 

[WolfHaley]

Don't go trying to use Sage Mode as an argument Bogard, you're better than that. A slight edge in speed isn't going to make a difference when Tobirama's reacted to enemies far faster than Minato ever will be. Minato hasn't shown any sealing techniques outside of RDS that will counter ET. And Tobirama's reserves mean that he'll outlast Minato easily, especially if he starts using summons.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Minato> Tobirama

lol Tobirama's explosive tags destroy Sage Art gates, which not even the juubi could destroy.

 

[Bogard]

Don't go trying to use Sage Mode as an argument Bogard, you're better than that. A slight edge in speed isn't going to make a difference when Tobirama's reacted to enemies far faster than Minato ever will be. Minato hasn't shown any sealing techniques outside of RDS that will counter ET. And Tobirama's reserves mean that he'll outlast Minato easily, especially if he starts using summons.

I said trump card. Trump card is something you rarely use, depending on the circumstances. And actually Tobirama reacted to a mindless opponent(Minato isn't), but he was still cut in half. Without edo regeneration, he doesn't have a second chance.

Minato actually showed shishou fuin which has been mentioned to be stronger than the armour seal holding the Hachibi inside Bee, as well as the Hakke fuin no shiki or the contract seal that would remove any control Tobirama may have on his edos and if they actually don't like him, they may actually help Minato instead.

I'm also not so sure Tobirama's reserves are better than a Sage Mode user. Not to mention Minato most likely has better chakra control(creating rasengan in human form, balancing natural energy perfectly, changing shape of chakra to match any individual)

 

[WolfHaley]

Please tell me how intelligence is directly proportional to speed. If it were Tobirama would be the fastest in the manga. The Bijuu dama has no intelligence at all, so it shouldn't be able to move, right?

Shisho fuin was what he used on Naruto, correct? You think he's going to seal the Edoes within himself? Doesn't it need prep?
Tobirama's chakra runs through the Edo Zombies, if they are separated from Tobirama's control (which they won't as Minato needs to touch him.) he can teleport them back to himself and take them over again.

Might help Minato? That's not how a Vs match works Bogard.

Lol, so Minato's reserves are higher than Nagato's? The Third Raikage's? Madara's? No, aside from a botched Sage mode, there's no evidence to suggest Minato's reserves are comparable to Tobirama's.
Tobirama using Ninjutsu when he shouldn't be able to mold chakra at all is enough for me to say with certainty that Tobirama is superior.

 

[Bogard]

Please tell me how intelligence is directly proportional to speed. If it were Tobirama would be the fastest in the manga. The Bijuu dama has no intelligence at all, so it shouldn't be able to move, right?

With intelligence you use your speed better because when you know what you're doing, it helps you to move and react accordingly

As an example just notice how the slower Madara could counter-act a blindsiding attack from this same Tobirama

Shisho fuin was what he used on Naruto, correct? You think he's going to seal the Edoes within himself? Doesn't it need prep?

It can be used to seal inside objects as well

As the result of a fuuinjutsu, a sealing formula is carved into, for instance, a human body or an object. The "Four Images Seal" is one of these. This sealing formula is mainly used when a giant enemy or evil spirit needs to be sealed.

Tobirama's chakra runs through the Edo Zombies, if they are separated from Tobirama's control (which they won't as Minato needs to touch him.) he can teleport them back to himself and take them over again.

The chakra only helps to bind them. To control them, you must put those kunais in their head that helps the user of the edo to control them. When Madara broke the edo contract, Kabuto could no longer control him despite being the one who summoned him

Might help Minato? That's not how a Vs match works Bigard.

What do you mean?

Lol, so Minato's reserves are higher than Nagato's? The Third Raikage's? Madara's? No, aside from a botched Sage mode, there's no evidence to suggest Minato's reserves are comparable to Tobirama's.
Tobirama using Ninjutsu when he shouldn't be able to mold chakra at all is enough for me to say with certainty that Tobirama is superior.

It has never been said it's impossible to mold chakra. Hashirama said it only stops you to create more chakra than you have at your disposal. The people you mention have been hyped to possess strong chakra reserves when Tobirama didn't receive such a hype

 

[Touken]

Minato vs. Tobirama debate? Brings me back to the summer of '13.

 

[Europa]

He is barely Kage level.

 

[Bogard]

He is barely Kage level.

So is Kisame U_U

 

[Europa]

So is Kisame U_U

Kisame is on Madara's tier stated by Madara himself u_u.

 

[Kamui Sama]

He is a more manly Minato mixed with Kakashi's looks mixed with Oro and Danzo's intelligence + personality XD

 

[Bogard]

Kisame is on Madara's tier stated by Madara himself u_u.

I need the scan or it didn't happen U_U

 

[KidGamer65]

Tobirama is almost dead equals with Minato.

 

[WolfHaley]

With intelligence you use your speed better because when you know what you're doing, it helps you to move and react accordingly

As an example just notice how the slower Madara could counter-act a blindsiding attack from this same Tobirama

This is a load of rubbish, intelligence has no effect on how something moves, this is something you and your boys have thought up, and tried to pass off as fact. It isn't. Intelligence isn't proportional to speed

And the thing with Madara? You know what Sage mode does. Limbo finished him off.

It can be used to seal inside objects as well

Objects can be destroyed.

The Eight Trigrams seal requires a ritual and the object having the thing sealed inside it needs to be placed on a throne. [

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] Is Minato going to be able to perform the ritual - which you have no idea how it's finalised, otherwise you could claim Minato could seal any thing or person within himself regardless of who they are - whilst fighting Tobirama, his clones and his zombies? No.

The chakra only helps to bind them. To control them, you must put those kunais in their head that helps the user of the edo to control them. When Madara broke the edo contract, Kabuto could no longer control him despite being the one who summoned him

It still runs through them. If Tobirama has used the Edo Tensei before - which numerous sources claim he has, then he obviously has used the Kunai to control them, meaning, like what Kabuto was going to do to Itachi, he can do it again.

What do you mean?

Tobirama's arsenal isn't going to turn against him and help someone they don't know, that's not how a Vs matchup works.

It has never been said it's impossible to mold chakra. Hashirama said it only stops you to create more chakra than you have at your disposal. The people you mention have been hyped to possess strong chakra reserves when Tobirama didn't receive such a hype

Hashirama stated molding chakra was near impossible, and Tobirama had far more rods in his back and head than Hashirama did.

When a Tobirama got up, he stated he could only send one person to Madara at a time.

The people I mention don't have sage mode, but still have higher reserves than those that do. Jiraiya can access Sage Mode, but doesn't have any ridiculous chakra feats to speak of except having sage mode. You're low balling Tobirama here, being a Senju (which does matter.) and lasting a whole day against EMS Madara means his reserves are huge.

 

[Bogard]

This is a load of rubbish, intelligence has no effect on how something moves, this is something you and your boys have thought up, and tried to pass off as fact. It isn't. Intelligence isn't proportional to speed

And the thing with Madara? You know what Sage mode does. Limbo finished him off.

Well i'm not going to explain this further. I think i've tried my best, so you can believe what you want

Objects can be destroyed.

The Eight Trigrams seal requires a ritual and the object having the thing sealed inside it needs to be placed on a throne. [

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] Is Minato going to be able to perform the ritual - which you have no idea how it's finalised, otherwise you could claim Minato could seal any thing or person within himself regardless of who they are - whilst fighting Tobirama, his clones and his zombies? No.

He can easily place that throne far from the battle location and teleport the target there with the sealing jutsu already prepared. He isn't forced to put the throne right infront of the enemi

It still runs through them. If Tobirama has used the Edo Tensei before - which numerous sources claim he has, then he obviously has used the Kunai to control them, meaning, like what Kabuto was going to do to Itachi, he can do it again.

But if the summoning contract is broken, they is no longer under his control

Tobirama's arsenal isn't going to turn against him and help someone they don't know, that's not how a Vs matchup works.

I only mentioned the possibilty

Hashirama stated molding chakra was near impossible, and Tobirama had far more rods in his back and head than Hashirama did.

When a Tobirama got up, he stated he could only send one person to Madara at a time.

Ah you're right. After re-reading i noticed the *********** version(only version available of the chapter) mention it, but notice how while saying it stops them from molding chakra, yet he could give his remaining chakra to Sasuke. I'll ask for the viz to be sure

The people I mention don't have sage mode, but still have higher reserves than those that do. Jiraiya can access Sage Mode, but doesn't have any ridiculous chakra feats to speak of except having sage mode. You're low balling Tobirama here, being a Senju (which does matter.) and lasting a whole day against EMS Madara means his reserves are huge.

Tsunade is a senju, yet she "only" has 4/5 in stamina when Jiraya has 5/5. Once again, you have no proof he has more than a sage user, so don't say it as if it was a fact

 

[WolfHaley]

Well i'm not going to explain this further. I think i've tried my best, so you can believe what you want

It's fan fiction. Speed isn't directly related to intelligence.

He can easily place that throne far from the battle location and teleport the target there with the sealing jutsu already prepared. He isn't forced to put the throne right infront of the enemi

Leaving the battlefield counts as BFR. If Minato teleports the Zombie away, Tobirama can bring it back.

But if the summoning contract is broken, they is no longer under his control

It doesn't mean he can't regain control over his zombies. How is Minato touching Tobirama again?

I only mentioned the possibilty

Which wouldn't occur in a Vs matchup.

Ah you're right. After re-reading i noticed the *********** version(only version available of the chapter) mention it, but notice how while saying it stops them from molding chakra, yet he could give his remaining chakra to Sasuke. I'll ask for the viz to be sure

Plus Tobirama did it without hand seals.

Tsunade is a senju, yet she "only" has 4/5 in stamina when Jiraya has 5/5. Once again, you have no proof he has more than a sage user, so don't say it as if it was a fact

Data booklets are often invalid. Part one Neji is faster than Hiruzen? Faster than Kakashi? No.

A five can be a broad category. Naruto is five, but is less than a third of Kisame's, also a five. And Hashirama is a head and shoulders above the rest.

When Minato lasts more than a day at fighting, maybe then you'll have something credible to back up your claim. Naruto's reserves are only three times more than Kakashi's, but I guess Minato's two-second sage mode means he can fight for a whole day against an opponent like Madara.

And you're trying to make Tobirama out as the black sheep when every other person from a clan with large reserves aside from sick Itachi has them.

 

[Bogard]

Data booklets are often invalid. Part one Neji is faster than Hiruzen? Faster than Kakashi? No.

A five can be a broad category. Naruto is five, but is less than a third of Kisame's, also a five. And Hashirama is a head and shoulders above the rest.

When Minato lasts more than a day at fighting, maybe then you'll have something credible to back up your claim. Naruto's reserves are only three times more than Kakashi's, but I guess Minato's two-second sage mode means he can fight for a whole day against an opponent like Madara.

And you're trying to make Tobirama out as the black sheep when every other person from a clan with large reserves aside from sick Itachi has them.

You're the one trying to discredit Minato here

Proof of it you mention irrelevant things in the debate like his timelimit in the mode when it has nothing to do with his chakra reserve, more like a capacity issue. It takes him longer to accumulate natural energy than others most likely because he was still new in the mode. Minato is someone who has been described to have better potential than Naruto, so i'm sure if he lived longer, he would have mastered the mode better.

So once again, it has nothing to do with his chakra reserve. You can't use Sage mode if your chakra reserves aren't already incredibly high

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I'm not saying for sure he has more than Tobirama. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt if anything, but i'm just saying there is no proof and you can't deny it

Hagomoro already countered that clan = high chakra reserve thing by saying children don't always born with their parents full chakra/potential, Asura(descendant of Senjus) being the perfect example of this. His chakra reserves were piss poor at the beginning.

 

[WolfHaley]

You're the one trying to discredit Minato here

Proof of it you mention irrelevant things in the debate like his timelimit in the mode when it has nothing to do with his chakra reserve, more like a capacity issue. It takes him longer to accumulate natural energy than others most likely because he was still new in the mode. Minato is someone who has been described to have better potential than Naruto, so i'm sure if he lived longer, he would have mastered the mode better.

So once again, it has nothing to do with his chakra reserve. You can't use Sage mode if your chakra reserves aren't already incredibly high

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I'm not saying for sure he has more than Tobirama. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt if anything, but i'm just saying there is no proof and you can't deny it

Hagomoro already countered that clan = high chakra reserve thing by saying children don't always born with their parents full chakra/potential, Asura(descendant of Senjus) being the perfect example of this. His chakra reserves were piss poor at the beginning.

Because he was new to the mode? Naruto maintained his for far longer than Minato the first time we saw him do it. For reasons I already said, high reserves can mean any number of things; orochimaru had the reserves needed for sage mode, but he doesn't stand close by someone like Kisame where feats are concerned. You can't use one vague feat to try to assert that Minato 'might' have higher reserves than Tobirama, when Tobirama has a superior feat to anything Minato has shown.

And so Tobirama, generally seen as a genius, is the black sheep based on what?