Madara stated he controlled those particular Shinobi, not the entire mist village. Are you implying he was controlling the entire mist village including the Mizukage?
Since the bloody mist formed before Obito could have possibly controlled him, then its a plothole unless its explained how Madara did it. The mazou moving does not explain how Madara could have continued to control Yagura over an extended period of time.
I already explained how he could do it. He had the mazou to move and a very strong genjutsu. He could also have used the genjutsu to brainwash him like pictures and texts on a screen.
Ten Ten is a year younger than Neji and Lee. Gaara is two years younger than Kankuro and three years younger than Temari. Ebisu is two years older than Gai and three years older than Genma. Several teams have age differences.
About KA, it is permanent until the job of the Genjutsu is complete. Itachi wanted to put the command "protect Konoha" into Sasuke. Instead, he cast it on himself in edo form. That broke the control of the Edo Tensei command. If that had been cast on Sasuke, it would have changed his personality to protect Konoha, that's as close to permanent as you can get.
Danzo implanted in Mifune "Make me commander of the alliance". The only reason that wasn't as permanent is because he would have accomplished the KA command rather quickly.
The reason I say something on the caliber of KA is required to make Yagura create the bloody mist is because one command of "Create mass turmoil within the village that will last generations" would be enough to cause Yagura to create the graduation exam.
I like your thread simply because it views the bad and the good (maybe some point I disagree with but disregarded). Nevertheless, bleach is only a good action manga with the cliché storyline. It's degree of complexity is at pubescent . I dislike it because of the dearth of tact for arduous situations. Naruto is so much to assimilate (lore and techniques) but that's what makes me like it so much. It's not truly simple
No, I saying he may have used it to control the Mizukage.
Then you should acknowledge people's points rather than moving on, lest it comes off as you ignoring them.
I already explained how he could do it. He had the mazou to move and a very strong genjutsu. He could also have used the genjutsu to brainwash him like pictures and texts on a screen.
Ten Ten is a year younger than Neji and Lee. Gaara is two years younger than Kankuro and three years younger than Temari. Ebisu is two years older than Gai and three years older than Genma. Several teams have age differences.
Unless a Hyuuga or someone else could spot it.
There is no "permanent until or "as permanent. Permanent is permanent. Stop twisting your words to cut corners.
Or continual brainwashing with Madara's mazou genjutsu.
That isn't a fact. It's your assumption. We only ever saw Yagura alive once and that was when Obito was recruiting Kisame.
All of them were wearing anbu masks. None of them were low rank.
Through brainwashing, possibly. Through his mazou genjutsu, which was implied to be like a singular version of IT, definitely.
I find it funny how you claim I ignore your points when you blatantly cut out portions of my posts when responding. You claimed I said the Mizukage created the graduation exam, which is not true at all. I always stood by him being controlled when he created them.
I don't understand why you are continuing to claim Obito is of a different age. You already agreed that he did not start the Bloody Mist, you claim Madara did. If you agree with that, than there is no reason to support the theory of Obito being a different age. Again, your line of thought is strange to me.
Stop being so nit-picky with my words, what are you my teacher? I say its permanent because the Genjutsu does not stop until the task assigned by the caster is completed or the jutsu is interrupted by an outside source, ex. a Byakugan user butting in.
You speak of this Mazou genjutsu like its a fact and it makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying the Mazou itself casts a genjutsu? Your entire argument regarding Madara manipulating Yagura as an old man revolves around this point yet you seem to commit very little logic to it. So every time Madara wanted to brainwash Yagura, did he hop on the Mazou's back and walk into the village? You're saying he used it as transportation rather than summoning it right? How could he go unnoticed all this time if he needed the Mazou to walk him to the Mist village every time? My whole point here is that your argument is illogical and farfetched. You're basically just grasping at straws now. The whole point here is that its a plothole until its explained how Madara actually went about controlling the Mizukage without having to leave his cave.
The Mist shinobi in question were clearly below Kage level and that was only half my point, the other point was that they were very close to Madara's lair compared to the distance the Mizukage would be while in the Mist village.
I like your thread simply because it views the bad and the good (maybe some point I disagree with but disregarded). Nevertheless, bleach is only a good action manga with the cliché storyline. It's degree of complexity is at pubescent . I dislike it because of the dearth of tact for arduous situations. Naruto is so much to assimilate (lore and techniques) but that's what makes me like it so much. It's not truly simple
I'm not blatantly cutting out anything. The few things I don't respond to are not points and hold not relevance to the topic. Other parts are the same or similar elaborations answered earlier. I on the other hand make points that you have not responded to and instead just repeat your same assumptions.
The Bloody Mist and the graduation exam were created by the third Mizukage. After he died, the exam was stopped and Yagura revived it after being controlled through Obito. And yes, in your initial post, I got the implication you stated Yagura created it.
I don't understand why you are continuing to claim Obito is of a different age. You already agreed that he did not start the Bloody Mist, you claim Madara did.
I never claimed Madara did. I stated it was possible he too could have been manipulating the the Mizukages. The third mizukage on his own could have created the graduation exam and bloody mist for all we know. If you'd quit making invalid assumptions about people's ages, I'd quit arguing it. Until then, well..
Floyd, the whole "age discrepancy" is solved by the fact that the bloody mist was founded before Obito took control of Yagura and before Yagura was Mizukage.
Stop being so nit-picky with my words, what are you my teacher? I say its permanent because the Genjutsu does not stop until the task assigned by the caster is completed or the jutsu is interrupted by an outside source, ex. a Byakugan user butting in.
Your entire argument regarding Madara manipulating Yagura as an old man revolves around this point yet you seem to commit very little logic to it. So every time Madara wanted to brainwash Yagura, did he hop on the Mazou's back and walk into the village? You're saying he used it as transportation rather than summoning it right? How could he go unnoticed all this time if he needed the Mazou to walk him to the Mist village every time? The whole point here is that its a plothole until its explained how Madara actually went about controlling the Mizukage without having to leave his cave.
No, for all we know, he have only needed to do it once. Madara lived underground in a series of tunnels and was near the bloody mist so he may have had tunnels connecting to the village as well. Furthermore, the mazou possessed vines derived from Hashirama's Mokuton that he attached himself to.
The Bloody Mist and the graduation exam were created by the third Mizukage. After he died, the exam was stopped and Yagura revived it after being controlled through Obito. And yes, in your initial post, I got the implication you stated Yagura created it.
I never claimed Madara did. I stated it was possible he too could have been manipulating the the Mizukages. The third mizukage on his own could have created the graduation exam and bloody mist for all we know. If you'd quit making invalid assumptions about people's ages, I'd quit arguing it. Until then, well..
Floyd, the whole "age discrepancy" is solved by the fact that the bloody mist was founded before Obito took control of Yagura and before Yagura was Mizukage.
No, I'm saying being connected to the mazou strengthened his genjutsu to that of a miniature IT as he out right stated in the bubbles I circled.
No, for all we know, he have only needed to do it once. Madara lived underground in a series of tunnels and was near the bloody mist so he may have had tunnels connecting to the village as well. Furthermore, the mazou possessed vines derived from Hashirama's Mokuton that he attached himself to.
We're mostly repeating ourselves now but I'll try to make myself more clear on a couple points.
I know the age problem is solved if the Bloody Mist was founded before Obito became Tobi, but that's not my point here considering we already know that. The point is that we were told the Bloody Mist existed before him but have not yet gotten an explanation for it. One can rightly claim its a plothole because the only rationalization given to explain Yagura creating the Bloody mist at this point in time is that Obito was controlling him. Since that is not possible for a significant amount of time, its something that blatantly does not align with the plot we have been given. I don't want to explain myself in regard to this point again.... the only KNOWN explanation for the Bloody Mist being created was Yagura being controlled, that is not fully explained with Obito alone, there has to be more to it and we have not been given that information.
You have all these theories about the 3rd Mizukage and how he could have purposely started the Bloody Mist or was controlled to do it. Problem is, we know nothing about the 3rd Mizukage so these are obviously just theories. You seem to be trying to cover a variety of possibilities in order to increase the likelihood of your claims. The problem is that not only do we know nothing about the 3rd, but we don't know the range of Madara's mazou-connected Genjutsu either. While I finally understand your idea on this, your implying that he stays connected to the mazou, gets to the Mist unnoticed (which is possible yes) puts Yagura under the genjusu ONCE and from then forth is able to keep Yagura in the genjutsu indefinitely. But how do we know he can maintain it from a vast distance? He claimed that his Genjutsu was still "white". If the world he's creating is singular, how could Yagura have been trapped in there seeing another world? If you ask me, Madara never cast it on Yagura because he would have already filled it with images of the world in order to fool Yagura. I think its obvious that if he controlled Yagura, he didn't do it with that jutsu. I hope you understand why I don't believe this is a possibility.
You can't claim that a story has a pothole until the whole story has been told. It's unfair to yell "PLOTHOLE!!" When there is still plenty of time to explain. Wait a few years then make this thread. Then they'll both be done.
Naruto anime sucks, Bleach anime is very entertaining as more action in included. This is what most people complain about, the "lack of plot" but that's not the case. Bleach plot is just structured completely different.
At the very moment, Bleach is better in every sense.
P.S. Naruto is far from being unpredictable, it's very predictable
To me Bleach follows the exact same plot everytime. Ichigo see's an enemy, Ichigo fights enemy, Ichigo gets asspull powerup, Ichigo beats enemy, "A new challenger has arrived", rinse repeat. There seems to be no rhytmh or reason to bleach and its powerup, what was reallly strong yesterday is a fodder today.
Remember back when he was figting kenpachi and how badass that was, then bankai came out of no ****ing where, then he becomes god at the end of the manga for no ****ing reason other than bankai can do that... Not sure why Aizens bankai never showed him that final technique or why ANY ONE ELSES BANKAI DOESNT DO THAT SHIT, do you know how many people would be alive right now? Are you telling me that bankais are so selfish that they would rather die along with their owners than give them the power of god? Power to EASILY defeat a guy who defeated the entire 13 squads without breaking a sweat..There is no method to the madness, just a shameless cycle of one power up after another with no attention paid to the last power up.
Where was the growth or character development behind Ichigo getting his Final Tetsuga power up? It litterally happened in 1 Manga episode, no one ever talked about it before, no one knew about it before, but for some reason when Ichigo is about to die his Bankai spills the beans on how to get unlimited power? And DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED on the fillerbringer arc, I gave up on bleach (Anime and Manga) at that point. I will prob pick up on the manga just to see how things are going though, last I hear the King of the soul societies bankai has the heat of the sun and disintegrates anything it cuts... "The hits just keep on coming"
Naruto on the other hand has progression, when Naruto gets stronger you understand why, you see it coming, and it links to the plot. It doesnt come completely out of left feild, even with the Sages transmigration, which was an ass pull, it still felt kind of legitimate. When he learned Rasengan, when he spent the span of 15+ Chapters learning senjutsu inspired by the death of his master, beating the Kyubi and mastering Bm and the KCM, these are feel legit as they are linked to the plot and feel realistic. One can argue the Kyubi giving Naruto power is the same as Ichigos bankai giving him power but its not the same. For one the Kyubi was introduced in the FIRST chapter and we all know its strong, secondly we all knew the kyubi had power to give Naruto because it had been teased since his fight with neji and we can understand why only Naruto can have this power. In bleach EVERYONE HAS Swords, why in the world is Ichigo the only one whose sword comes to him at the verge of his death to teach him how to use this special power. Did everyone elses sword not care? Did they not react fast enough? Why are all the swords keeping this power so hush hush.
Well thats my rant on this, spent 15 minutes typing it, should be working on this essay... procrastination is a cruel mistress.
By differences I'm not going to talk about the obvious ones, I'm going to talk about the way the story is told and how things are revealed throughout the story.
We are all very familiar with Naruto and how Kishi goes about telling it. If we can say anything for certain, its that Kishi is unpredictable. Can anyone say they truly expected the manga to be where its at now? I think not. But in addition to being unpredictable, Kishi is also historically inconsistent. I don't want people to take this the wrong way, but its true. It is extremely common on NB to see threads about plot holes and mistakes in Naruto. Now while these threads are common, most claims of 'plot hole' are unfounded and not accurate. But if you ask me, there are however, at least 1 or 2 true plot holes in the Naruto story. Others may claim there are more, but I don't think its necessarily true.
The point I'm trying to make with this is that, at the very least, Kishi creates circumstances to where he is setting himself up to be criticized. Now its not that he has created various plotholes, but he has certainly created various circumstances that cause people to question his work. And if a writer is consistently creating situations that cause his readers to question his work, is he truly going about things the right way? Now I know I will get flack like 'Well why don't you try making your own manga and see if you can do better?', or 'Well then why don't you stop reading the manga?', but I'm simply accessing Kishi's way of story telling and comparing it to another author. With that, I want to talk about Bleach a little bit.
Now when it comes to the popular manga titles of our age, Bleach's writer Kubo has the infamous reputation of being a troll. Now why is he considered a troll? I guess its mostly the way he will often leave a chapter with a cliff hanger and not come back to the issue several chapters later. He goes about things his own way and some people don't like it. But in all honesty, can any Bleach reader ever say in a million years that Bleach has any plotholes? Please rack your brain and tell me with a straight face that you can claim Bleach has even 1 plothole. I think you'd be hard-pressed to do so. The reason you can't is because Kubo has never introduced anything that conflicts with what he's already revealed.
Now the primary reason for this is that Kubo has simply been very vague with the details of his manga. Many things he reveals seem out of left field because its a topic he never really covered or only quickly passed over without revealing much. In addition, while its very common for him to give his characters upgrades, they don't really break any rules of his manga because, honestly, he has left his manga world open to almost any possibility. The point here is that Kubo will often leave things extremely vague or unexplored so that when he later sheds light on the topic, you honestly have no room to question it.
In conclusion, I guess what I'm saying is that Kishi is a much more detail-oriented writer than Kubo. While Kishi undoubtedly had the major plotlines of his story figured out from day one, he is very likely guilty of changing things along the way. The more detailed he made his story, the more complicated it became for him to make small story changes down the line. In at least one or two cases, I feel this has created a true plot hole in the story. This is in addition dozens of lines of story that might not be plot holes but are at the very least questionable decisions on Kishi's part and might have benefited from better planning. While some people consider Kubo to be a troll in Bleach, he is certainly not guilty of creating plot holes and has achieved that by keeping his manga generally simple, thus creating no real room to question his work when new things are revealed.
Summary:
The meaning of this thread was to compare two very popular mangas created by two very different writers. I feel that while Kishi's work is very good and worthy of praise, it contains numerous examples of questionable lines of plot that cause people to question his work. Most of these inconsistences can be explained and are not true plot holes. But can you look at all these instances that cause people to question it and say that there is not at least something wrong about the writing? Surely Kishi could have changed some things to not create so much controversy. I feel that this is largely a result of over-complication of his manga. By adding more and more depth as the story went on, Kishi made it more and more difficult to keep things in one consistent line. I think he eventually strayed from this line and we are seeing the results of it.
I feel this differs greatly from a writer like Kubo who may get flack for trolling his readers, but never creates instances that make his readers question his work. I think he owes this largely to the simplicity of the manga he created (when compared to Naruto). He wrote his manga in such a way that whenever something new is revealed, there is truly no significant room to question things and call 'plot hole'. He simply never introduces anything that could contradict his own story.
Anyway, I just wanted to explain my thoughts when comparing these 2 mangas because while they are both highly successful mangas I feel that the level of depth of story differs greatly between them and creates a completely different community of discussion based on them. Thoughts, comments, concerns, suggestions?
I think comparing Naruto to bleach is an insult. Naruto has a strong plot line that tells the readers to expect an unfolding that will end only at the end of the story. Bleach on the other hand is a very bad joke in which the writer wake up a morning with an idea he think everyone will love, and build up the idea to set a context of fight. Bleach story lines are so bad that it is not even funny. The current arc of bleach can speak for itself.
Now, speaking of plot holes in Naruto, those who find such plot holes are themselves guilty of not having enough skills to understand the story of Naruto. You could say I am being harsh, but lets deal with it.
Can you say there is a plot hole in a story where flashbacks are a storytelling device, especially before the end of the manga? The answer to this question will give you the first sign that Kishi does not leave any hole in the story. Anything that is left unsolved is considered as mystery, and will be reveal as characters who know the mystery are introduced. For example, we are told that Uzumaki are distant blood relatives to Senju, but we don't know how, and we don't know why it is not mentioned that they are relatives of Uchiha. This fact could be called a hole by impatient readers, but the truth is that the main character is half Uzumaki, and therefore, Kishi can use him to solve such pending issues.
The second mistake that those who point pothole make is that they fail to understand that kishi has used a very interesting method in his storytelling - that is each character is responsible for what he says, not Kishi. For example, Obito was brainwashed by Madara into thinking that Madara was awesome and equal to Hashirama, and that the Uchiha were a match for the Senju under the leadership of Madara. Clearly, this was Madara trying to look cool, and trying to make Obito inherit his grudge so that he can go for his project. Many people built their believes on this character-specific knowledge, and they cried wolf when it was revealed that Madara was a sore loser to Hashirama, and that the Uchiha could not even give a competition to the Senjus of Hashirama and Tobirama. There are many other issues like that where some readers complain after Kishi show a different view. A perfect example is that most readers have been locked in the past by using the commonly mistaken view of Naruto as dropped out by the village. They failed to understand that the village was completely ignorant of Naruto's potential and genetics, and now, they are complaining about Naruto being a Jesus. These are not Kishi's mistakes. Rather, they the results of bad reading from readers who chose to ignore the obvious.
To make it short, I would say that Kishi is not unpredictable at all. Sure, we cannot predict events with 100% accuracy on how, when, where, and by who they will occur. However, we have been really good on many facts. For example, we have (1) Tobi is Obito, (2) Naruto will meet the sage, (3) Madara is himself a pawn, etc. All these are prediction that were given by many groups of fanbase. I can even use this to say that Naruto is to Sasuke what Hagoromo was to his brother, and though Hagoromo's brother was introduced only lately, I have always considered Naruto as more representative of Hagoromo himself. The reason we can make all these predictions that come true is that Kishi uses a very logical line of plot where causes lead to proper consequences.
Clearly, readers of Naruto who complain must blame themselves for their wrongly stubborn denial of the facts. Naruto is too good to be compare to bleach. That guy who is writing Bleach is a very lazy person - I am pretty sure of it. His plot has no depth most of the time, and when there is any depth, he throw it at the reader without any elaboration.
you are all so dense,madara just told obito he was remotely controlling the mist ninja,so that means he probably had control of the mizukage before obito came into the picture,
