The major differences between Naruto and Bleach

[Floydical]

Spoiler

Any work of fiction can be criticized, as any and every work of fiction is as imperfect as the writer. You're looking at it too subjectively. Every person to a degree is different. Different personalities, traits, tastes, styles, intellects, emotional maturity, inspirations, environments, etc, and this effects their interpretations and opinions of things. For example, many believe the Lord of the Rings is a perfect series, whereas I believe in certain parts it is too elaborated, esoteric, poorly paced, one-sided and anticlimactic.



Floydical...let me explain something to you, if wish for people to take your threads, opinions, theses and criticisms seriously, you shouldn't use urban dictionary terms. There's absolutely no literary objectivity to them. The correct terms you are looking for are deus ex machina and diabolus ex machina.



Wrong. People refer to him this way when they dislike a certain direction or cannot see it coming. When their favorite characters are defeated in a way they dislike, when there is a revelation or plot device they do not understand, etc.



Exactly.



I agree. I believe he foreshadows most of his devices and is consistent, though I wouldn't say Bleach is without any plot holes or inconsistencies at all.



It's called minimalism. It's a literary principle used to keep a number of aspects in mystique and suspense in order to use them in later or on multiple occasions.



Agreed.



More or less. Kishimoto tends to constantly expand on lore throughout the series while Kubo either keeps it vague or reals it all at once. Kubo also still makes most of his supporting characters more pivotal to the story, yet keeps is antagonists vague, while Kishimoto in part two steered a bit away from that and focused almost primarily on the development of the two main protagonists and antagonists. I think they both suffer from pacing issues at times.



Retcons are very common in fictional media, especially in comics, TV series, manga and graphic novels that continue as a series for years.



True, but this is often an issue with most mainstream mangakas. With more time, they can pace themselves and their concepts. That's why several of them only release chapters monthly. When they become weekly however, they become subject to a timeframe or deadline and annoying editors and publishers that favor their own ideas and those of the audience and often force the mangaka to do what they want. This has happened numerous times with Kishimoto and Kubo. Kishimoto was forced to cut Hidan's backstory and elaborated fight and techniques out because the editors wanted him to rush things in order to get to the hunt for Itachi arc faster so they could make their big bucks, while Kubo's publishers forced him to make his manga weekly rather than monthly, as was most of the SS arc, and his editors asked him to let several characters he wished to kill off such as Hinamori and Byakuya survive, due to the fan bash lash they feared. They also made him completely cut Ashido from the canon. It was the same thing I believe with Neji and Chouji in the Rescue Sasuke arc.

Your opinion of LotR is that of a personal preference. Does LotR have plotholes? No. What I'm doing is explaining the fact that Kishi has created the potential to confuse his readers by creating situations that can cause them to question his work. This is completely independent of my personal liking of the series.

Deus ex machina and diabolus ex machine? I think I'll stick with troll. I did feel that my explanation in regard to him being was troll was lacking though, so thank you for adding your input.

I was curious about the Hidan revelation. Kishimoto had written somewhere that he didn't have time to expand on Hidan as much as he wanted to, it makes sense it was because of his publishers. I'm quite curious what the Hidan fight and his abilities were like un-edited.

The Bloody Mist is still a vague timeline and plot, but I believe we learned enough to put things together. Madara clearly still possessed a powerful genjutsu with the sharingan he had after he gave his rinnegan to Nagato. And since Nagato was in another country, it was apparent Madara had to have gone there. Before you say he was immobile, you need to remember that the mazou could move on its own on or under ground and carried Obito in and Madara in the war. With these facts in mind, it's safe to say he could still have manipulated Yagura, or the unrevealed third mizukage, who is implied to be the true creator of the bloody mist. In further regards to Yagura, he stated to Naruto that though he appeared as a child, he was actually an adult.

Your talking about a Genjutsu on the level of KA. But if he had such a genjutsu, why would Obito need to control him later? Madara has shown no capability to use something on that caliber. Like I said before, there is enough inconsistency in regard to this issue that is in fact a plot hole until the author expounds upon it.

 

[Ultimateone]

bleach
sometimes the powerscaling can be confusing to some in bleach, and sometimes it can be kinda inconsistent.
kubo also likes to waste entire pages of just white or black.
kubo is kinda a troll. he'll leave you with a cliff hanger, then next chapter he'll go back to things that happened before or during that cliff hanger than show what happens next at the end of the chapter. example of this has happened twice in the past month or so with the reveal of kenpachi's zanpakuto and ichigo's return.

naruto
naruto does tend to have plothole, or just straight up retconned. remember when hiruzen was the god of shinobi. that wa until we saw what the other kage could do.
kishi sucks at writing female characters. there is no way any sane female would still be inlove with someone that has tried to kill them twice. there are literally two girls that have almost been killed by the same person and they are both in love with them. thats just stupid writing.
also one of the main cruxes of the story relies on the friendship of the 2 main characters, but there was never truly one there. we were mostly just told that they are, so we had to just take it at that. in bleach, we see how they are all good friends.
kishi also likes to make another character look cool at the expense of another. case in point, naruto. naruto is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but when kishi has him and sasuke together he like to make naruto look way dumber than he usually is, to the point of absurdity.

 

[kageking]

Bleach doesn't have enough plot to have a plothole U_U

Very well said sir.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Your opinion of LotR is that of a personal preference.

As is yours that Kishimoto creates inconsistencies.

Does LotR have plotholes? No.

There's no basis for that. An inconsistency doesn't have to be a plot hole per se but numerous other aspects in a story, as I said with pacing, characterizations, twists, etc.

What I'm doing is explaining the fact that Kishi has created the potential to confuse his readers by creating situations that can cause them to question his work. This is completely independent of my personal liking of the series.

Lol it's not a fact. It's an interpretation. A number of those people do not take the time to fully interpret the manga's content and thus forget or miss things. I myself forget things in fictional media. I'm not a recorder.

Deus ex machina and diabolus ex machine? I think I'll stick with troll.

Suit yourself, but you've been warned. I don't recommend using such terms in real life or in an objective online debate.

I did feel that my explanation in regard to him being was troll was lacking though, so thank you for adding your input.

No problem, but I wouldn't use it, period.

I was curious about the Hidan revelation. Kishimoto had written somewhere that he didn't have time to expand on Hidan as much as he wanted to, it makes sense it was because of his publishers. I'm quite curious what the Hidan fight and his abilities were like un-edited.

From what I read, he was going to be much like Sasori and Shurado, equipped with a bukijutsu arsenal in his scythe.

Your talking about a Genjutsu on the level of KA.

Why does it have to be on the level of KA? o_0 Well, for all we know, it may have, or at least been close to it. We don't know the exact abilities of the eye old Madara was using. He may have had a bunch of eyes like Obito. All the same, a sharingan genjutsu is what it is. Itachi's base genjutsu was very strong on it's own and Obito's base genjutsu manipulated Kurama while Sasuke's manipulated Orochimaru's snake dimension and Manda.

But if he had such a genjutsu, why would Obito need to control him later? Madara has shown no capability to use something on that caliber.

Of course he has. He manipulated Kurama and cast a genjutsu on Ay. Like I said, the Bloodmist timeline is too vague. It may have been Yagura being controlled by both of them, or it may have been the third Mizukage originally controlled by Madara since it's implied he started the bloody mist era based on Zabuza's timeline.

Like I said before, there is enough inconsistency in regard to this issue that is in fact a plot hole until the author expounds upon it.

Could you explain what about it exactly is a plot hole to you?

 

[AndreJNZ]

First, to the OP: You did a very good job writing this piece of work. Your quality is top notch. For a wall of text edited into hidden boxes to save space and negate the WOT problems is good. Your point if view is told clearly and without me trying to figure out what you are trying to say. Many people fail in this.

Now then. I agree with many of you about the style of the two Mangaka. When people disagree with certain things, why not just write your own FFiction and get it over with?

Well, no need for that, AJ....Ok. Good show. Loved reading it. I would read more of this stuff if you post more. +1 rep for good writing.

 

[flyingpigwaffle]

I'll just post it here.

The major plot hole in the story revolves around Obito and the Mizukage. History of the Mist village tells us that the Mizukage was being controlled and is the reason the graduation exam was created. We see Obito controlling the Mizukage when he recruited Kisame. Yet, if you look at the timeline, a true plothole comes out of it. Zabuza is similar in age to Kakashi. We know Kakashi and Obito are the same age. This means Zabuza is roughly the same age as Obito.

Yet, when Zabuza graduated by killing his classmates, he was only 8 or 10 years old (I forget which) which puts Obito back in the Leaf village. Obito did not control the Mizukage when the graduation exam started. This directly conflicts with the plot we have been given and Kishi has yet to explain it. Outside of Madara somehow remotely controlling a Kage from miles away, there is no true explanation.

One of the many inconsistencies I mentioned that cause people to question the manga is Madara using Susanoo without eyes. Its not truly a plot hole, but it is a very questionable decision on Kishi's part and is not consistent with that we've seen previously. There are more, but the timeline one regarding Obito and the Hidden Mist is the primary plothole in the story.

Black Zetsu couldve done it hes very good at controlling as weve seen recently

 

[Madara Uzumaki Uchiha]

bleach is riddled with massive plotholes.

aizen not using his Shikai against ichigo.

Yamamoto supposedly being a 2,000 year old supreme commander but acts like a idiot
- could have finished aizen off with Bankai,- could have easily killed off all the arrancar with Shikai, but instead just stood there floating.
- against fake yuha, he knew that they stole Bankai, what does he do? Go Bankai without even trying to win via Shikai. What happens? He gets his Bankai stolen and get mirked.

Also, the captains ( head two) have not even used Bankai yet, even though they clearly should have in the arrancar arc

- Unahana should have fought aswell.

- then you have ichigo owning aizen, could easily defeat him ( aizen could not even touch him) and he does final getsuga, which should be a last resort-

recently, gremmy was defeated, which is ridiculous, he could have easily imagined ken into a cookie.


Kubo is known as a troll because he gives characters incredibly haxed powers, and later illogically restricts them.

- about the bloody mist- the bloody mist has been around since the second mizukage, way before obito was born.
Second, we don't even know if the guy manipulating the 3rd was obito ( it could have been madara, moving around inside the zetsu suite)

 

[ShiroShonen]

I'll just post it here.

The major plot hole in the story revolves around Obito and the Mizukage. History of the Mist village tells us that the Mizukage was being controlled and is the reason the graduation exam was created. We see Obito controlling the Mizukage when he recruited Kisame. Yet, if you look at the timeline, a true plothole comes out of it. Zabuza is similar in age to Kakashi. We know Kakashi and Obito are the same age. This means Zabuza is roughly the same age as Obito.

Yet, when Zabuza graduated by killing his classmates, he was only 8 or 10 years old (I forget which) which puts Obito back in the Leaf village. Obito did not control the Mizukage when the graduation exam started. This directly conflicts with the plot we have been given and Kishi has yet to explain it. Outside of Madara somehow remotely controlling a Kage from miles away, there is no true explanation.

One of the many inconsistencies I mentioned that cause people to question the manga is Madara using Susanoo without eyes. Its not truly a plot hole, but it is a very questionable decision on Kishi's part and is not consistent with that we've seen previously. There are more, but the timeline one regarding Obito and the Hidden Mist is the primary plothole in the story.

That is a good point

 

[ShinjuMadara]

Plotholes in bleach? How about it takes 1000 years to learn a bankai, and Ichigo does it in a few days or any other of his asspull powerups

 

[AWSUM SID]

in bleach, concentrate less on character development and more on action

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Plotholes in bleach? How about it takes 1000 years to learn a bankai, and Ichigo does it in a few days or any other of his asspull powerups

It doesn't take a thousand years. It takes ten and he did it via the tenshintai method Urahara developed to learn his own. It's a doll derived from mod soul technology in a training ground also conceived through mod soul technology that forces the zanpakuto to materialize when its bearer stabs it. They can only attempt this once and the deadline is three days.

 

[Shiroyasha]

My Oh My.. so much hate for Bleach. Oh well, before i begin my explanation i'd like to say i'm a Bleach fanboy so i might sound a little biased. Of course i watch and read Naruto as well but i just prefer Bleach.

Naruto:

Unnecessary Filler Arcs (Konoha History Arc, The time when Naruto was going to the Island)

Useless Flashbacks (Kakashi's Past, What happened before Minato and Kushina Died)

Kishimoto has this obsession to make fans forget about characters besides the main protagonists (Yamato, Killer Bee, Kabuto)

Kishimoto just loves to over power his Characters e.g Naruto. Naruto is basically a freaking God Now. He saved Gai even though he was practically turning into ashes, he gave Kakashi a brand new eye... just like that. Alrighty before you began to use the ''He's the main Character'' excuse, Naruto doesn't deserve all the power he gets. It's not even his to begin with except Sage Mode of course.

Kishi loves to mess up his own logic. Making Madara able to use Susanoo without his Sharingans.. Really???

He also loves to just toss aside his main villians. e.g Obito, and now even Madara. And lets not forget the almighty TnJ.

Basically, i'm saying that Kishimoto never sticks to the story. He never planned the story from the beginning. He's just making it up as he goes. AND he loves to troll the readers.

BLEACH

Bleach actually has a solid story, and it's pretty obvious Kubo planned the story from the very beginning. Right from Masaki being a quincy to Ichigo unlocking his full potential.

Now hold on, you might say ''OMG Ichigo is waay too OP.'' But that's not true at all. Unlike Naruto, Ichigo actually deserves his power. Why do i say that?? Because it's HIS own power. Naruto constantly relies on Kurama as his power source. You take that away and what do you have? An average Shinobi. Ichigo on the other hand never relies on something that's not his. You might say that Hollow Ichigo keeps saving his ass, but if you actually read the manga you'll find that Hollow Ichigo is actually his Zanpaktou Spirit fused with the hollow that bit Masaki. And what he was constantly using was actually his Quincy powers, not his Shinigami powers.

Unlike Kishi, Kubo actually takes time to explain everything step by step. For example after the first Quincy invasion, he took 5 chapters to explain Ichigo's heritage. Look it up: ''Everything But The Rain''. And that was actually needed to complete the story. Another factor which separates Bleach from Naruto are the fillers. You see, Bleach fillers actually make sense and are very interesting. Ok, i'll admit the first filler arc (Bount Arc) was quite boring. But besides that, the Zanpaktou tales Arc and The Gotei 13 Invading Army Arc were both very entertaining. At one point, you wouldn't even notice that you were watching a filler arc. You'd actually think that they were both part of the main story.

Another difference is strength. In Naruto, the main protagonist is constantly being relied on. He basically has to do everything. e.g Invasion of Pain Arc when they kept crying out for Naruto. Another time was during the Fourth Shinobi War when Naruto had to make clones and send them to different divisions. In Bleach, it's not like that at all. All the Captains can hold their own against their enemies, and they rarely heavily emphasize on Ichigo to do the work with the exception of defeating Aizen. Even that, Old man Yama could have easily went Bankai and killed Aizen. Yet, he was afraid that it'd destroy Soul Society in the process.

Heck, even Juha said Yamamoto hates relying on the humans due to the fact that all Gotei 13 matters doesn't concern them. Which is even why he didn't ask Orihime to heal his arm when he sacrificed it in Battle against Aizen. Another instance was when he was going to trap Aizen in the pillars of fire and he told Ichigo to leave the scene, as it didn't involve him. This just shows that in Bleach, everyone is strong in their respective way. Bleach is much more diverse than Naruto. Every Shinigami has a Zanpaktou with Completely different abilities and power. Unlike Naruto where almost anyone can learn a certain Jutsu, or anyone can implant a Sharingan in his eye and use it freely.

Bleach also has better Villains. Aizen was practically the most badass Villain ever created with the exception of Freiza haha. His power, his intellect, his confidence, his flawlessness was unrivaled. And now with the introduction of the Quincies and their ability to steal Bankai, and Juha's ultimate Troll Trump card whereby if any of his Subordinates die, he gets their raw power due to the fact that he has distributed pieces of his soul into all of them. The Same rule applies to the Shinigami as well.

Well, i'm tired of writing. Anyone who wishes to challenge my opinion is free to do so.

 

[Floydical]

bleach is riddled with massive plotholes.

aizen not using his Shikai against ichigo.

Yamamoto supposedly being a 2,000 year old supreme commander but acts like a idiot
- could have finished aizen off with Bankai,- could have easily killed off all the arrancar with Shikai, but instead just stood there floating.
- against fake yuha, he knew that they stole Bankai, what does he do? Go Bankai without even trying to win via Shikai. What happens? He gets his Bankai stolen and get mirked.

Also, the captains ( head two) have not even used Bankai yet, even though they clearly should have in the arrancar arc

- Unahana should have fought aswell.

- then you have ichigo owning aizen, could easily defeat him ( aizen could not even touch him) and he does final getsuga, which should be a last resort-

recently, gremmy was defeated, which is ridiculous, he could have easily imagined ken into a cookie.


Kubo is known as a troll because he gives characters incredibly haxed powers, and later illogically restricts them.

- about the bloody mist- the bloody mist has been around since the second mizukage, way before obito was born.
Second, we don't even know if the guy manipulating the 3rd was obito ( it could have been madara, moving around inside the zetsu suite)

Those are not plot holes buddy. If a writer decides to save the revelation of certain abilities for certain times in the story, that is his business. A plot hole is something in the story that directly contradicts our knowledge of some other fact in the story. You're simply referring to your preference regarding how Kubo is revealing his characters' abilities.

The point about Madara controlling the Mizukage is that he was in his cave for his later life. He couldn't have logically controlled the Mizukage unless he was using a KA caliber Genjutsu.

Could you explain what about it exactly is a plot hole to you?

Explained above, its a fact that in the story that directly contradicts another fact and causes the story to no longer intertwine orderly. The story tells us Obito controlled the Mizukage, which is impossible for a number of years before Obito became Tobi. There is nothing in the story that explains this lapse.

Plotholes in bleach? How about it takes 1000 years to learn a bankai, and Ichigo does it in a few days or any other of his asspull powerups

Again these are not plotholes. Asspull powerups are also not plotholes given we are talking about an aspect of the plot only the writer knows.

First, to the OP: You did a very good job writing this piece of work. Your quality is top notch. For a wall of text edited into hidden boxes to save space and negate the WOT problems is good. Your point if view is told clearly and without me trying to figure out what you are trying to say. Many people fail in this.

Now then. I agree with many of you about the style of the two Mangaka. When people disagree with certain things, why not just write your own FFiction and get it over with?

Well, no need for that, AJ....Ok. Good show. Loved reading it. I would read more of this stuff if you post more. +1 rep for good writing.

Thank you. I did think it was too long for people to bother so I thought breaking it up would make people not shy away.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

History of the Mist village tells us that the Mizukage was being controlled and is the reason the graduation exam was created.

No, the bloody mist existed before Obito joined Madara, based on their appearance and using Rin when Obito left the cave.

We see Obito controlling the Mizukage when he recruited Kisame.

You saw a shadow. You didn't see Obito.

Yet, if you look at the timeline, a true plothole comes out of it. Zabuza is similar in age to Kakashi. We know Kakashi and Obito are the same age. This means Zabuza is roughly the same age as Obito. Yet, when Zabuza graduated by killing his classmates, he was only 8 or 10 years old (I forget which) which puts Obito back in the Leaf village. Obito did not control the Mizukage when the graduation exam started. This directly conflicts with the plot we have been given and Kishi has yet to explain it. Outside of Madara somehow remotely controlling a Kage from miles away, there is no true explanation.

Actually, Zabuza was the exact age as Kakashi, (when he was alive anyway) and Obito is implied to be older. He graduated the academy at nine, but became a chuunin at eleven. That is moot however to the fact that the bloody mist was founded before Obito joined Madara.

One of the many inconsistencies I mentioned that cause people to question the manga is Madara using Susanoo without eyes. Its not truly a plot hole, but it is a very questionable decision on Kishi's part and is not consistent with that we've seen previously. There are more, but the timeline one regarding Obito and the Hidden Mist is the primary plothole in the story.

That's easily explained by he using the gedo rods in his body to resonate with his eyes that were both in the vicinity at the time and in the hands of the zetsus, also filled with the rods and powered by the mazou.

The point about Madara controlling the Mizukage is that he was in his cave for his later life. He couldn't have logically controlled the Mizukage unless he was using a KA caliber Genjutsu.

I already explained the mazou can move above and under ground and that the sharingan's base genjutsu is powerful enough. If you're going to ignore those points, then we're done here because you're being unreasonable. And your consensus that it requires "KA caliber" holds no basis.

Explained above, its a fact that in the story that directly contradicts another fact and causes the story to no longer intertwine orderly. The story tells us Obito controlled the Mizukage, which is impossible for a number of years before Obito became Tobi. There is nothing in the story that explains this lapse.

Where does it state it was Tobi? The silhouette behind Yagura was a long-haired man Kisame referred to as Madara whose face we did not see.

 

[beast7960]

Same to me in my opinion, both main characters are only capable of spamming 1 ability.

 

[Floydical]

No, the bloody mist existed before Obito joined Madara, based on their appearance and using Rin when Obito left the cave.

You saw a shadow. You didn't see Obito.

Actually, Zabuza was the exact age as Kakashi, (when he was alive anyway) and Obito is implied to be older. He graduated the academy at nine, but became a chuunin at eleven. That is moot however to the fact that the bloody mist was founded before Obito joined Madara.

That's easily explained by he using the gedo rods in his body to resonate with his eyes that were both in the vicinity at the time and in the hands of the zetsus, also filled with the rods and powered by the mazou.

I already explained the mazou can move above and under ground and that the sharingan's base genjutsu is powerful enough. If you're going to ignore those points, then we're done here because you're being unreasonable. And your consensus that it requires "KA caliber" holds no basis.

Where does it state it was Tobi? The silhouette behind Yagura was a long-haired man Kisame referred to as Madara whose face we did not see.

Yes, the Bloody Mist was founded before Obito joined Madara, this is why its a plot hole. Want me to prove to you that the long haired man controlling Yagura was Obito? You're making this too easy:

Spoiler

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Kisame called him both Madara and Mizukage. He's the man Kisame saw controlling Yagura, Obito.

I'm not ignoring your posts, I'm stating the fact that Obito had to be very close to Yagura in order to control him. You can create all the theories you want, but the truth is that your explanations are not logical considering the distance Obito had to be to Yagura in order to control him, that and the fact that Kishi has not given a good explanation for it. I say its KA caliber because how else could Madara control Yagura while trapped in his cave? KA puts a permanent genjutsu on someone, that would be the only way for Madara to have remotely controlled Yagura like that.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Yes, the Bloody Mist was founded before Obito joined Madara, this is why its a plot hole. Want me to prove to you that the long haired man controlling Yagura was Obito? You're making this too easy:

And you're making it overly complicated lols. Your whole argument collapses with the fact that the bloody mist and graduation exam existed before Obito came and the fact that Madara himself stated he was already manipulating the bloody mist shinobi. Obito was not nine when he was presumed dead, he was thirteen.

Kisame called him both Madara and Mizukage. He's the man Kisame saw controlling Yagura, Obito.

And your point is? You still have yet to prove an age discrepancy.

I'm not ignoring your posts,

You are blatantly ignoring my posts. You didn't acknowledge the mazou being able to move above or under ground, the blood mist being founded before Obito, or Madara still having a sharingan. Instead, you cut corners by making invalid statements such as Yagura creating the bloody mist graduation exam, and at the, only when Obito was in control and then go on to say it would require KA calibur genjutsu to control the blood mist. Where the hell is the basis in that? None of those are facts and none of them are stated in the manga.

I'm stating the fact that Obito had to be very close to Yagura in order to control him. You can create all the theories you want, but the truth is that your explanations are not logical considering the distance Obito had to be to Yagura in order to control him, that and the fact that Kishi has not given a good explanation for it.

Distance? It sounds like you're completely changing your argument now. What does distance have to do with anything and what exactly is illogical about my statements. Yes, I made a mistake about Madara being the one who recruited Kisame. Whoop tee doo. It's moot to your argument because you still can't find irrefutable proof of age or timeline discrepancies.

I say its KA caliber because how else could Madara control Yagura while trapped in his cave?

By traveling with the gedo mazou for the umpteenth time.

KA puts a permanent genjutsu on someone, that would be the only way for Madara to have remotely controlled Yagura like that.

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KA is not permanent. It's just a genjutsu that is cast without the opponent being aware of it unless someone else like a byakugan user can see it. Mifune was not permanently made into Danzo's slave.

 

[Byron123]

Your possibility of Obito and Kakashi being different ages is a fantasy, they are the same age. Want undeniable proof Obito did not start the Bloody Mist?

Spoiler

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The Bloody Mist that Obito apparently created was created before he became Tobi, its a fact and is therefore a plothole that is yet to be explained.

That's not a plothole. When was it stated that Obito was the one who made the Mist the "bloody"? As far as I'm concerned, it was known for Obito under the allias of Madara to have done that BUT it's not the first time Obito presented something that madara had done as his actions. For instance, he said that he was the one who gave nagato the rinnegan while in reality it was Madara but since he was posing as him it wasn't contradicted. Same happened here, Madara had control over the Mist and it was because of him that the Mist village was called "Bloody" and the same way it happened with Nagato's case, once Obito took control of the Mizukage as "Madara" he presented real Madara's control as if it was his own from the beginning.

 

[Jack Spicer]

Stupid levels are so high here. Can't even look...

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[Floydical]

And you're making it overly complicated lols. Your whole argument collapses with the fact that the bloody mist and graduation exam existed before Obito came and the fact that Madara himself stated he was already manipulating the bloody mist shinobi. Obito was not nine when he was presumed dead, he was thirteen.

And your point is? You still have yet to prove an age discrepancy.

You are blatantly ignoring my posts. You didn't acknowledge the mazou being able to move above or under ground, the blood mist being founded before Obito, or Madara still having a sharingan. Instead, you cut corners by making invalid statements such as Yagura creating the bloody mist graduation exam, and at the, only when Obito was in control and then go on to say it would require KA calibur genjutsu to control the blood mist. Where the hell is the basis in that? None of those are facts and none of them are stated in the manga.

Distance? It sounds like you're completely changing your argument now. What does distance have to do with anything and what exactly is illogical about my statements. Yes, I made a mistake about Madara being the one who recruited Kisame. Whoop tee doo. It's moot to your argument because you still can't find irrefutable proof of age or timeline discrepancies.

By traveling with the gedo mazou for the umpteenth time.

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KA is not permanent. It's just a genjutsu that is cast without the opponent being aware of it unless someone else like a byakugan user can see it. Mifune was not permanently made into Danzo's slave.

Madara stated he controlled those particular Shinobi, not the entire mist village. Are you implying he was controlling the entire mist village including the Mizukage?

The point is that Obito was the one seen controlling Yagura.

You clearly don't understand my posts. I didn't mention the mazou moving because its a fact it can move, so I didn't counter it. I agreed that the bloody mist was founded before Obito. I never said Yagura created the graduation exams, I said he was influenced to do so, who's posts are you reading? I'm saying that Yagura did not do it and its implied Obito did. Since the bloody mist formed before Obito could have possibly controlled him, then its a plothole unless its explained how Madara did it. The mazou moving does not explain how Madara could have continued to control Yagura over an extended period of time. He spent most of his time in his cave, so he must have been able to remotely control Yagura over a vast distance.

I don't need irrefutable proof about Obito's age. They were in the same team of 3, that means they are the same age. You seem to agree that the one who met Kisame and controlled the Mizukage was Obito. That implies the stories of suspicion regarding the Mizukage being controlled are true. Yet Obito could not have controlled the Mizukage when the bloody mist started. This implies Madara controlled Yagura for years yet no explanation has been given as to how he remotely controlled Yagura over a mass distance for a number of years. This is why I'm saying something on the caliber of KA is required.

About KA, it is permanent until the job of the Genjutsu is complete. Itachi wanted to put the command "protect Konoha" into Sasuke. Instead, he cast it on himself in edo form. That broke the control of the Edo Tensei command. If that had been cast on Sasuke, it would have changed his personality to protect Konoha, that's as close to permanent as you can get. Danzo implanted in Mifune "Make me commander of the alliance". The only reason that wasn't as permanent is because he would have accomplished the KA command rather quickly. The reason I say something on the caliber of KA is required to make Yagura create the bloody mist is because one command of "Create mass turmoil within the village that will last generations" would be enough to cause Yagura to create the graduation exam.

That's not a plothole. When was it stated that Obito was the one who made the Mist the "bloody"? As far as I'm concerned, it was known for Obito under the allias of Madara to have done that BUT it's not the first time Obito presented something that madara had done as his actions. For instance, he said that he was the one who gave nagato the rinnegan while in reality it was Madara but since he was posing as him it wasn't contradicted. Same happened here, Madara had control over the Mist and it was because of him that the Mist village was called "Bloody" and the same way it happened with Nagato's case, once Obito took control of the Mizukage as "Madara" he presented real Madara's control as if it was his own from the beginning.

Yes but the fact is that Obito was in constant close proximity to Yagura in order to manipulate him. Madara showed the ability to persuade the Mist shinobi that took Rin, but these Shinobi were relatively close to his cave and low ranking Shinobi. For Madara to have controlled the Mizukage while in his cave as an elderly man.... is simply normal Sharingan genjutsu enough to achieve this? I think not considering the efforts Obito went through to control Yagura, being so close to him and everything.