[Discussion] Is this an a$$pull or is kishimoto taking this somewhere?

[ShinjuMadara]

Zetsu wasn't even trying with Obito. He just needed the body, not to kill him. Either that or BZ caught Madara by surprise

 

[so12p]

Sorry OP but you are wrong.

First, Kaguya's soul was trapped inside God Tree so Black Zetsu couldn't do too much on his own
Second, It was Kaguya will which wake up and immobilized Madara allowing Black Zetsu to pierce him and connecting with her spirit make Madara's body transforming in her own body most likely.

In what way? You seem to be suggesting that Kishi is going somewhere with this, but connect the dots. It is supposition that Kaguya was trapped in the tree. I agree it seems like that, but there is a lot Kishi has not explained, especially about what happened to Kaguya.

I don't see anything, though, to indicate Madara was somehow paralyzed by Kaguya's will. So that is just conjecture on your part.

 

[InvaderRaz]

Just remembered that obito seemingly did a great job warding off black zetsu, at least long enough to fight around against Madara, get to kamui land, and get naruto in touch with the SO6P (not to mention resurrecting him).

Now we learn black zetsu is Kaguya. Putting aside my other complaint for the moment (that supposedly Madara had absorbed Kaguya) are we now to assume obito was strong enough to go toe to toe with Kaguya for so long?

I find that hard to believe, so I am thinking a$$pull by kishi.

Thoughts?

You're missing the point that BZ is just the "will of kaguya" not kaguya herself. In the same manner he was expected to be the will of madara... being kaguya's will does not make him any stronger, it just makes his goals and actions different.

 

[so12p]

You're missing the point that BZ is just the "will of kaguya" not kaguya herself. In the same manner he was expected to be the will of madara... being kaguya's will does not make him any stronger, it just makes his goals and actions different.

I am not missing that at all. It just strikes me as incongruent. You are basically suggesting that Madara has been duped through half the manga. I personally don't like the Madara character, but I have not seen anything in the manga to suggest he is dumb enough to fooled for so long. Kishi has actually made him out to be one of the more clever characters.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Just remembered that obito seemingly did a great job warding off black zetsu, at least long enough to fight around against Madara, get to kamui land, and get naruto in touch with the SO6P (not to mention resurrecting him).

Now we learn black zetsu is Kaguya. Putting aside my other complaint for the moment (that supposedly Madara had absorbed Kaguya) are we now to assume obito was strong enough to go toe to toe with Kaguya for so long?

I find that hard to believe, so I am thinking a$$pull by kishi.

Thoughts?

I believe he is really taking the series to somewhere. Madara's will was very strong, but his motives are way too void, a falseness. The destiny of the world needed some motives.

This alone shows the greatness of Obito's will , don't understimate him . He went against the world by himself , believing that his path was right . Sorry but Madara is no where Obito's will .

Wrong. Obito's will was nothing, and this was demonstrated from the moment when the Ame no Nuboko was destroyed by Sasuke and Naruto. Obito got owned by a pair of kids which motives were not as strong as his, and Madara's will was strong enough to be mantained after death.

 

[so12p]

I believe he is really taking the series to somewhere. Madara's will was very strong, but his motives are way too void, a falseness. The destiny of the world needed some motives.

...

Interesting. So you think his motives blinded him and that allowed for him to be fooled? Or when you say "void" you mean that he had no real motive and therefore he could not succeed? What would cause a character written to be intelligent to be so unaware that he was caught off guard?

 

[Mr Hiru]

Interesting. So you think his motives blinded him and that allowed for him to be fooled? Or when you say "void" you mean that he had no real motive and therefore he could not succeed? What would cause a character written to be intelligent to be so unaware that he was caught off guard?

Both.

First of all, it was Hagoromo himself who stated a simple fact: Madara was being overtaken by power, just like Hagoromo's mother. Power corrupts... even Kaguya was corrupted by this power.

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And also, by transitivity, even if Madara could originally have motives for peace, this peace is a farse.

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...this is what last chapter told us. It is a meaningless peace, which is not constructed by a society by using free will, but by force.

And there is also a problem if we take both variables in consideration: As power corrupts and this false peace needs power to be imposed, nothing guarantees that this peace last forever, thus making Hagoromo's words to become a tautology:

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...infinite tsukiyomi = end of the world, it is a paradox, because power can't last forever under control. IT is taking effect... but as time passes, the one who used it will lose control, and then... people will die.

Madara needed to understand from the start that Infinite Tsukiyomi was destined to fail. It was already used once, and here we are... so his plan was destined to fail from the start.

This or... there is the little possibility that I stated long time ago, the twist of the century.

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Well, this would justify how did the previous IT ended.

 

[so12p]

Both.

First of all, it was Hagoromo himself who stated a simple fact: Madara was being overtaken by power, just like Hagoromo's mother. Power corrupts... even Kaguya was corrupted by this power.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

And also, by transitivity, even if Madara could originally have motives for peace, this peace is a farse.

You must be registered for see links

...this is what last chapter told us. It is a meaningless peace, which is not constructed by a society by using free will, but by force.

And there is also a problem if we take both variables in consideration: As power corrupts and this false peace needs power to be imposed, nothing guarantees that this peace last forever, thus making Hagoromo's words to become a tautology:

You must be registered for see links

...infinite tsukiyomi = end of the world, it is a paradox, because power can't last forever under control. IT is taking effect... but as time passes, the one who used it will lose control, and then... people will die.

Madara needed to understand from the start that Infinite Tsukiyomi was destined to fail. It was already used once, and here we are... so his plan was destined to fail from the start.

This or... there is the little possibility that I stated long time ago, the twist of the century.

You must be registered for see links

Well, this would justify how did the previous IT ended.

I follow you, but still a lot of unanswered questions.

I have read that theory of yours before. I think it is unlikely, but I guess it was not intended to be serious.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I follow you, but still a lot of unanswered questions.

I have read that theory of yours before. I think it is unlikely, but I guess it was not intended to be serious.

My theory may look as some joke, but you should think a bit...

Kaguya used IT in the past.

How did this IT end? Or or is this IT still in effect and nobody has noticed it, even Madara? It's quite the question if you analyze it with care.

 

[AaaaNinja]

Maybe Zetsu was just dicking around.

"Maybe sempai will finally notice me."

 

[Whiteknight]

Just remembered that obito seemingly did a great job warding off black zetsu, at least long enough to fight around against Madara, get to kamui land, and get naruto in touch with the SO6P (not to mention resurrecting him).

Now we learn black zetsu is Kaguya. Putting aside my other complaint for the moment (that supposedly Madara had absorbed Kaguya) are we now to assume obito was strong enough to go toe to toe with Kaguya for so long?

I find that hard to believe, so I am thinking a$$pull by kishi.

Thoughts?

The best explanation I can come up with is this: Black Zetsu willingly took a ride on Obito in order to keep track of the Rinnegan.

 

[Torche]

Yeah, I think this is an asspull, he stated that he didn't know how to finish Madara and this is what he came up with... He is literally digging a bigger hole.. I also think that the Reincarnations was an asspull, no way that was planned for long. Otherwise why did Hashirama, "The no good Ashura" always stomp Madara, "The excellent Indra"? Makes no sense..