I relied too much in defense firstly, because I knew SZ's arsenal cannot penetrate through Itachi's defense. It was later when I formed the Shinsuusenju, clone, and wood spikes as my final tactic to finish off Itachi. Thanks for the vote regardless.
Great debate you two. After reading over the debate a few time, I have come to my decision.
Adjudication
AGoodBoy Pros
You debated the Exploding Clones very well. You could've taken it a few steps further, since the normal Kage Bunshins combines with the exploding ones would've made a serious problems for SZ.
You were capable of defending almost all of MR's offensive strategies. There was little room for SZ to kill Itachi in combat.
Your claims of Basic techniques being proficient in high-level battles was delightful. Something that is often overlooked in debates was made very apparent in this debate.
Cons
You weren't capable of balancing your offence and defence, and ended the debate with a seemingly defensive stance.
You tried to tie manga in with logic. Try to keep real life out of manga, it usually doesn't end well in debates. Kakuzu, Konan and Sasori had shown eyes though. SZ has not shown the slightest signs of eyes.
You didn't take advantage of the time it would take for Zetsu clones to regenerate missing limbs. Given Itachi's speed (+clones), it should've been easy.
You made some assumptions which didn't necessarily help you in the debate, could've left them out (i.e. Tenpenchi tanked by v1, Kirin blocked by v1)
Dimitri Rascalov Pros
Your structure was superb throughout the debate.
Your were extremely proficient in countering the MS techniques Itachi had to offer. The Amateratsu and Tsukoyomi seemed like non-factors in the match.
Genjutsu, Itachi's most powerful weapon, was successfully countered. Not having attempted to use real life situations in a manga was a smart choice.
The regenerative powers of Zetsu, as well as the low stamina of Itachi, were argued well.
Cons
Your arguments were also focused more on defence than offence. Both of you seemed to focus on countering defensively instead of stopping the offence a defence followed by an offence.
Your lack of usage of spores was saddening. Spores are effective counter measures in many scenarios.
You didn't seem to understand the strength of basic techniques. You actually ended up going along with AGB's claims and basically have him a win an argumentation point with little effort.
My vote goes to MadaraRules. I had to read the debate several times to come down to a vote, due to the fact that the debate was so closely matched. Some of AGB's arguments, and his structure as a whole, seemed a bit rushed, whereas MR looked like he put hard work into each post. Nevertheless, good job to the both of you. Feel free to point out anything you disagree with in my adjudication.
v1 susano is ribcage susano. That wasn't ribcage, that was v2/incomplete susano.
The stuff you wrote about having no brain, organs, etc. I also meant it as in real life scenario logic. Logically, Kauzu and Sasori wouldn't visualise anything as you mentioned, but they do since they have eyes (mangalogic). On the other hand, SZ is hollow from within which makes it ever the more improbable that he can see.
v1 susano is ribcage susano. That wasn't ribcage, that was v2/incomplete susano.
The stuff you wrote about having no brain, organs, etc. I also meant it as in real life scenario logic. Logically, Kauzu and Sasori wouldn't visualise anything as you mentioned, but they do since they have eyes (mangalogic). On the other hand, SZ is hollow from within which makes it ever the more improbable that he can see.
I call it V1. for me ribcage is and V1 is same thing. V1 is just a fully formed ribcage.
huh? I'm a bit confused because what you're saying sounds like what I was saying... which is that, In paper form conan has no eyes, ears or brain yet she can see, hear and think and in EFG kakuzu has no visible ears/throat yet he can hear and talk... So just because I can't find zetsu's eyes wouldn't mean he couldn't see when every single other zetsu, including his original can see...
Anyway, That's fine. thanks for the judging U_U
EDIT: I probably didn't explain myself well through this anyway, because like you pointed out, I did actually rush through most of this. I'm a bit busy Zzz
You forgot many, many of Zetsu's arsenal that could've pinned down Itachi even worse; you could've used the Shin Sūsenju as an distraction while attacking Itachi with Mayfly from underground (though this was the method to counter Susano'Ō, but could've been used much earlier). You also underrated badly the statue's elemental jutsu's, which could've played a bigger part. Also, in my opinion, you were on constant defense; AGB managed to pin you down to the level of near-defeat with his arguments, and was more aggressive. Though you weren't defeated, a debater is supposed to be always countering with defense that is followed with offense. The second part didn't go quite well. This is though a very bad habit of yours, which I've noticed and discussed with you before (don't hate bro).
Defense | II
This played the best part. You countered nearly every technique AGB attacked you with, giving him less and less arsenal to compete with until it came down to Genjutsu argument. You even debated about this extremely well, when AGB constantly argued that Genjutsu would make his end and managed even then to repel the constant attacks. I really can't put it in words, it was just superb job.
A Good Boy
Offense | I
This went at first amazing, but then absolutely dropped. Your counter opening was absolutely astonishing; I thought you ended the debate there. But then MR came up with new counters, which some of you couldn't counter properly (what I saw), and started hesitating and dropping those jutsu's. MR landed a devastating blow on your Susano'Ō, which you couldn't handle. He picked off one by one jutsu's from your arsenal, and all you were left with in your sight was Genjutsu which didn't go that well in the end. In my opinion, if could've kept the pace you started, you could've ended this in two posts. I don't know what went wrong though.
Defense | II
This was quite disappointing. Even though MR didn't constantly attack you, you had no interest on countering his attacks; rather made up your own. Even if the offense lacked a final blow in the end, if you could've ended his strikes first, and then strike back, you would've been the last man standing. Though, you didn't take this course of action, which lead to an odd defending stalemate from both sides.
Conclusion;
In my opinion, MR took this debate by a narrow margin. He countered the attacks better, and even though had less offense, his were more deadly and ending. AGB was very good in offense too, and had much more potential. If he can learn from these minor mistakes, he may be able to beat MR sometime.
I noticed that to when I judged your other debate MR. Your a very rebuttal focused debater. You have think more on how your character is going to get the finishing blow.
I noticed that to when I judged your other debate MR. Your a very rebuttal focused debater. You have think more on how your character is going to get the finishing blow.
I've been on this account xD So I didn't see it. I'd rather not though, I've been really sick that last couple days and turned down someone else's invitation to judge their debate as well.
I've been on this account xD So I didn't see it. I'd rather not though, I've been really sick that last couple days and turned down someone else's invitation to judge their debate as well.
Lmao, its you!? I didn't recognize you. Don't worry about it. I have 2 votes currently, if the other judge votes me, then there is no need for another judge. If not, then I will request another one. Don't worry man.
Lmao, its you!? I didn't recognize you. Don't worry about it. I have 2 votes currently, if the other judge votes me, then there is no need for another judge. If not, then I will request another one. Don't worry man.
Lmao MR. It's obvious. ''The Avenger that turns into Demon''.
In my opinion, you didn't factor all the jutsu's so much. You could've debated the significance of for instance the Buddha's elemental attacks, his abnormal strength, and the fact that his clones can drain the Chakra of an opponent.
That can only happen if Zetsu bypasses Susanoo's defense, and SZ's Shinsuusenju element attacks and punches ave not harmed even Mei, so Susanoo wont be damaged. That's why I relied on tactic instead of brute strength.
No, I meant CQC. If Zetsu went on CQC with Itachi, he would've most likely beaten his insides badly. Even if Itachi is fast, Zetsu doesn't really care about physical damages. You could've used Zetsu's sensing precog. and brute strength to land a hit when Itachi gets exhausted, and create distraction through massive elemental jutsu's like Suiton. But Susano'O is a different story.
So, I addressed the main points of the debate and explained who I thought defended that topic better.
Intel - Dimitri Rascalov made the better argument. He pointed out that Zetsu has knowledge of most of Itachi's arsenal whereas Itachi does not know about Zetsu's capabilities (AGoodBoy admitted it himself.) Though AGoodBoy made some good points about Itachi's intelligence and analytical abilities, Dimitri Rascalov explained how Zetsu's brain works better than a human's - AGoodBoy didn't challenge that statement so it seems like it stands.
Exploding Clones - AGoodBoy made the better argument. The fact that Itachi used a suiton to protect himself despite the fact that he was a good distance away proves that the explosion was pretty deadly. Kakashi's slightly tattered clothes do not prove that he was directly in the blast area, and he was probably only minimally affected by it. Although Spiral Zetsu's armour is tough, we already know that water gun bullets can tear through it and in the case of a point blank explosion, it would definitely affect Spiral Zetsu.
Genjutsu - Dimitri Rascalov made the better argument. The scans he posted showed Spiral Zetsu opening up his body, proving that he has no eyes. AGoodBoy gave examples of other characters with no "logic" behind them, and to be honest that's just not an acceptable argument in my opinion; logic doesn't apply in Naruto, and you have to have eyes to have vision. Dimitri Rascalov countered the clone argument by explaining how they were only clones because they shared the same DNA, so examples of White Zetsu being caught in genjutsu are moot. Though AGoodBoy made some good points about sensors still being able to be caught in genjutsu, I see that as more of a side point, and irrelevant since Spiral Zetsu has no eyes.
Amaterasu - Dimitri Rascalov made the better argument. I don't really need to explain myself here since AGoodBoy just said fair points well made and moved on.
Itachi's stamina - AGoodBoy made the better argument. You can't use jutsu with sheer willpower, you need chakra for that. He displayed Itachi's stamina feats, proving that something like the 5 element attacks won't exhaust him and can be tanked with a V1. He included more scans and feats. AGoodBoy proved Itachi won't go down after one or two Susano'o uses or several MS techniques. Does not mean that Itachi cannot run out of chakra though!
Magatamas/Blitzing - AGoodBoy made the better argument. He proved that Itachi could potentially blitz with his speed, and throw magatamas, as well as pointing out how a SM user with better sensing was blitzed, proving that sensing won't help against it. Dimitri Rascalov didn't address this as thoroughly as he should have.
"Buddha/elemental attacks as distraction while Zetsu clones go under the Susano'o" strategy - Dimitri Rascalov made the better argument. While it's true that sharingan can see through solid earth to see the clones, that is the purpose of Shinsuusenju - to distract Itachi. Even if he sees the attacks and dodges, he would just be overwhelmed by clones constantly mayfly-ing to his location and having to maintain Susano'o continuously against the elemental attacks.
My vote goes to...
Dimitri Rascalov. You both did great though. If you have further questions or feel that there was something important that I didn't address, feel free to ask.
