AGoodBoy[Itachi] Vs Dimitri Rascalov[Spiral Zetsu]

[DemonicAvenger]

dk tried to bait me once into debating him Lol Maybe I might take him up on that offer some time U_U

Just be ready for them spores haha.​

​

 

[AGoodBoy]

Just be ready for them spores haha.​

I'll get my Penicillin.

 

[Bronze]

First of All, I'd like to make it noted that, no, zetsu does not have knowledge on itachi's entire arsenal[x]. That already means that zetsu likely has no knowledge on aspects of Itachi's arsenal such as exploding clones, finger genjutsu, crow genjutu, or even yasaka magatamas. Infact, Itachi is so secretive, that white zetsu nor black zetsu had any idea he were even sick[x][x].

This debunks your claims that Zetsu Knows itachi's entire arsenal. When, in fact, he potentially doesn't know quite a deadly aspect of it. Itachi, however, likely has no idea what zetsu's capable of. Though, That won't be a problem, since Itachi's a calm and analytical man who understands one very important concept... Every technique has a weakness. Itachi doesn't need to know what zetsu can do. But, like many other intelligent ninja's have shown, he will See the tech -> Analyze it -> Understand it -> Counter it. Intelligence is a very deadly tool.

The jutsu you listed are hardly a factor in this game. Yes, I am fully aware that Zetsu is not 100% acknowledged in Itachi's arsenal, but Tsukuyomi, Amatersu, and Susanoo are the biggest factors in this game. But even if Itachi decided to use those forms of techniques you listed, spiral Zetsu will more than capable of countering attacking them.

Exploding clones - Kakashi and Kurinai were caught in the explosion and received none damage. Spiral Zetsu possessing a higher biological body and tanking water shot guns [

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]. after all, his body acts like an Armour.

Yasaka Magatama - These can be avoided with speed, and mayfly jutsu plays a counter for it.

Itachi's intelligence will be good, but that solely depends on how you utilizes its effectiveness, but Zetsu's brain works better than human [

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].​

I don't know where you got this from to be honest... Zetsu's have been caught in genjutsu before. While spiral zetsu spoke with white zetsu, to obito, he kept saying 'we', and also said 'we are watching you'. White zetsu himself says spiral zetsu is a clone of him. Spiral zetsu has vision; Genjutsu will screw him over. Even if you attempt to argue against this, the mere fact that you're using Shinshuu means that Spiral zetsu has the host inside. The host has eyes. The host will be zetsu's downfall at the very least.

Now, you've also stated that zetsu's a sensor so he can see through the genjutsu, etc. 'Being a sensor' doesn't make you immune to genjutsu by default. Visual sensors -- sharingan and byakugan users -- need to notice the presence of genjutsu. Physical Sensors need to do the same. Being a sensor helps you detect genjutsu, but it doesn't occur instantly, or automatically. Evidence:

- Sasuke was in itachi's genjutsu pretty much the moment he stepped into the uchiha hideout[x], yet, even with his sharingan, he only noticed it further down the line[x].
- Hinata, possessing a byakugan, had to actively check for the presence of genjutus(can't remem where this scan is among that jiraiya v pain mess)
- Karin, arguably the greatest sensor in this manga, had to actively check for the presence of genjutsu[x]

And there are more instances. In order for Zetsu to break the genjutsu, he must first spot it. That is the worst part about itachi's genjutsu; it's near impossible to spot within the first few seconds. A few seconds is more than enough time for itachi to kill you. To add salt to the wound, BZ, the sensor of the bunch, has been blitzed before.

1st of all, spiral Zetsu's design and body construction is completely different from white Zetsu and black Zetsu. They are only clones, because they share the same genes. However, spiral Zetsu's design differs and for this very reason, he wont be caught in Genjutsu. Please look at the scan:

Spoiler

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There is literally no visible human organ or vision organ the latter contains. Regarding your scan of ''We're watching you'', that can just be interpreted as spiral Zetsu has other sensory sources that makes him look as if he is seeing, but the panel I posted of the latter opening his body showed no organs or eyes what so ever. Also, your part of the vessel inside his body, the vessel appears to be unconscious, and Genjutsu doesn't work on unconscious spirit. Itachi's Genjutsu will be useless.

Please reared my portion on your counter. I merely relied on ''sensory'' on the part of Itachi casting Genjutsu on the sensory ball. Kakashi made it clear the only Genjutsu that's hard to counter from Itachi's arsenal is Tsukuyomi [

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]. Other than Tsukuyomi, Sharingan Genjutsu is normal and easy to fight. And, with spiral Zetsu's body system, Genjutsu doesn't work on him.​

Zetsu's have no regenerative capabilities as far as I'm away. If zetsu were lit on fire, he'd burn to ash. If he shed the burnt portion, like the juubi, he'd simply be missing that piece of his body. Notice that when madara cut zetsu's arm, it never grew back.
Zetsu is made from Hashirama's DNA; However, base hashirama has no regenerative properties[x][x]. Yet, madara said hashirama has regenerative healing. How is that, then? Because hashirama heals with SM. It's no coincidence madara, who was rocking hashi cells all along, suddenly begun to heal once he stole sm.

In short, If itachi lights zetsu's foot, and zetsu sheds it off, that foot is gone. Amaterasu disintegrates it, and zetsu's now a cripple.

I never claimed that spiral Zetsu had regeneration abilities. I merely said that he can remove that burned piece. Also, you are forgetting that spiral Zetsu having knowledge on Amatersu allows him to create clones at the beginning of the match. Unlike any clones, white's Zetsu's clones are real clones [

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]. In other words, even if spiral Zetsu by a chance was hit by Amatersu and removed that burned part, he can take the clone's part to replace as Madara shown. But either way, the clones will serve as counter, due to Itachi not knowing which one is the real.

There is also chakra sensory which you have forgetting about, allowing spiral Zetsu to sense the pressure in Itachi's eye and counter it via mayfly.​

Living Itachi has no problem holding up a susano'o for a prolonged period. In fact, it's entirely likely that he can hold up his susano'o for near as long as sasuke held his up against danzo. Let's look at it.

-> Itachi's exhausted and low on chakra. Even sasuke, 1 point higher in stamina is completely drained -stamina is converted into chakra, so sasuke essentially has more chakra.
-> Ontop of this, Itachi's blind in his right eye. This already means itachi's riding at his lower than lowest point in life...
-> Itachi then goes on to fully blind himself after popping a ribcage to survive kirin.

So, Quick recap. Itachi's Out of chakra. Itachi's Blind.
Let's continue...

-> Itachi then goes on to hold up V2/v3(highest level/most chakra intensive) Susano'o through... hydra assault, orochimaru talking bullsh*t, explosive kunai spam[x][x], his slow trek towards sasuke, and even death.

Let's go back over that last one. Watch closely. Itachi touches sasuke, susano'o's still active, he then collapses. Susano'o then disperses. That means, at time of death, itachi was not out of chakra; but, instead, as tobi even stated, itachi poured is remaining stock into sasuke, basically committing suicide. For reference, Sasuke couldn't maintain his sharingan, yet itachi maintained a V2 susano'o? One level below max of his most chakra intensive and body taxing technique. All this done by a blind guy who was definitely riding less than 30% chakra reserves. Now, what happens if itachi were to start off with V3 susano'o, or even use it before going blind/exhausted? By the simple process of extrapolation, he'd maintain it a very long time.

As for the point about shinshuu; Yata isn't even necessary for that. A V1 ribcage tanked lightning, and a Km cloak tanked juubi sized katons; those attacks won't break V1 ribcage. Itachi simply slices every single hand off with totsuka. End of. After all, Ay was slicing the hands off while his raiton armor was off.

Zetsu 'clone clones'(not ones made from the mazo, but from zetsu himself) aren't fit for battle. They're just distractions.

1st of all, I would like to comment on that Itachi's last stand was merely because of his willpower. Obito Uchiha, on his deathbed controlled the Juubi merely through his willpower. And, lets not overrate Itachi's chakra to even put him on MS Sasuke's level. MS Sasuke, during the kage summit was already spamming Amatersu [

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], wheres Itachi can BARELY handle 1 Amatersu. Not to mention he said his limit of using MS techniques is 3 times mostly [

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]. To add on, his clone containing 30% of his chakra cannot use even 1 MS technique. His reserves are clearly not MS Sasuke's level, and by starting with Susanoo will tire him quickly [

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].

2nd of all, my tactic on Shinsuusenju is not based on raw strength. Shinsuusenju's purpose is to distract Itachi through the 5 elements, giving spiral Zetsu's clones to pierce Itachi through

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.

3rd of all, spiral Zetsu > white Zetsu. His clones will do the job.​

 

[Curse Mark]

Nothing against either debaters, but its a good thing that Dkdankong isn't the one using Zetsu. He'd be tearing some bootys apart.​

​

Oh, you. I've just always liked zetsu so writing for him comes naturally for me.

dk tried to bait me once into debating him Lol Maybe I might take him up on that offer some time U_U

(;
People still debate Dr.Proof with him using Gaara and i'm not nearly as good as he is with gaara.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Spoiler

The jutsu you listed are hardly a factor in this game. Yes, I am fully aware that Zetsu is not 100% acknowledged in Itachi's arsenal, but Tsukuyomi, Amatersu, and Susanoo are the biggest factors in this game. But even if Itachi decided to use those forms of techniques you listed, spiral Zetsu will more than capable of countering attacking them.

Exploding clones - Kakashi and Kurinai were caught in the explosion and received none damage. Spiral Zetsu possessing a higher biological body and tanking water shot guns [

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]. after all, his body acts like an Armour.

Yasaka Magatama - These can be avoided with speed, and mayfly jutsu plays a counter for it.

Itachi's intelligence will be good, but that solely depends on how you utilizes its effectiveness, but Zetsu's brain works better than human [

You must be registered for see links

].​

1st of all, spiral Zetsu's design and body construction is completely different from white Zetsu and black Zetsu. They are only clones, because they share the same genes. However, spiral Zetsu's design differs and for this very reason, he wont be caught in Genjutsu. Please look at the scan:

Spoiler

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There is literally no visible human organ or vision organ the latter contains. Regarding your scan of ''We're watching you'', that can just be interpreted as spiral Zetsu has other sensory sources that makes him look as if he is seeing, but the panel I posted of the latter opening his body showed no organs or eyes what so ever. Also, your part of the vessel inside his body, the vessel appears to be unconscious, and Genjutsu doesn't work on unconscious spirit. Itachi's Genjutsu will be useless.

Please reared my portion on your counter. I merely relied on ''sensory'' on the part of Itachi casting Genjutsu on the sensory ball. Kakashi made it clear the only Genjutsu that's hard to counter from Itachi's arsenal is Tsukuyomi [

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]. Other than Tsukuyomi, Sharingan Genjutsu is normal and easy to fight. And, with spiral Zetsu's body system, Genjutsu doesn't work on him.​

I never claimed that spiral Zetsu had regeneration abilities. I merely said that he can remove that burned piece. Also, you are forgetting that spiral Zetsu having knowledge on Amatersu allows him to create clones at the beginning of the match. Unlike any clones, white's Zetsu's clones are real clones [

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]. In other words, even if spiral Zetsu by a chance was hit by Amatersu and removed that burned part, he can take the clone's part to replace as Madara shown. But either way, the clones will serve as counter, due to Itachi not knowing which one is the real.

There is also chakra sensory which you have forgetting about, allowing spiral Zetsu to sense the pressure in Itachi's eye and counter it via mayfly.​

1st of all, I would like to comment on that Itachi's last stand was merely because of his willpower. Obito Uchiha, on his deathbed controlled the Juubi merely through his willpower. And, lets not overrate Itachi's chakra to even put him on MS Sasuke's level. MS Sasuke, during the kage summit was already spamming Amatersu [

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], wheres Itachi can BARELY handle 1 Amatersu. Not to mention he said his limit of using MS techniques is 3 times mostly [

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]. To add on, his clone containing 30% of his chakra cannot use even 1 MS technique. His reserves are clearly not MS Sasuke's level, and by starting with Susanoo will tire him quickly [

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].

2nd of all, my tactic on Shinsuusenju is not based on raw strength. Shinsuusenju's purpose is to distract Itachi through the 5 elements, giving spiral Zetsu's clones to pierce Itachi through

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.

3rd of all, spiral Zetsu > white Zetsu. His clones will do the job.​

You're underestimating the deadliness of simple jutsu. transformation jutsu, one of the most basic techniques, has defeated some of the most powerful opponents in the manga(ex. deva path). Susano'o, ama and tsukuyomi are deadly, but they're far from being the only threat... There's nothing more deadly than being comatose in a genjutsu world while your opponent has precious time to do what he pleases with you. In fact,

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scan alone proves how deadly simple techniques are. Deidara was nearly solo'd by basic sharingan genjutsu. Now, Replace Deidara with SZ, and the centipede with Shinshuu. SZ just killed himself with his own elemental attack.


You're mistaken. Kakashi and kurenai simply weren't in the blast zone. From the perspective of the image, it's impossible to tell where exactly kakashi and kurenai were, but it's highly likely they weren't in danger close. Let me show you why...
[

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] - In that rough colouring, the important bits are highlighted in blue and red. The blue is the water thrown up during the explosion. Pay close attention to the red part; It can be seen that itachi used a suiton jutsu to defend himself from the explosion. Now, why would he do that? Because he was too close and he knew the jutsu would do some serious damage to him if he didn't defend himself or get out of the blast area. Explosive tags blow off limbs, are large explosion like that would seriously maim. This alone leads me to believe kakashi and kurenai were already out of the blast zone after kakashi lunged at her.
I'd also like to point out that in your scan, zetsu didn't tank the water gun. The part that was hit was destroyed. Sure, the person inside wasn't harmed, but what good is that if half of SZ's body is blown off?

And exactly how is zetsu going to react in time to a point blank magatama in his belly?[

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] Zetsu isn't that fast(outside of mayfly). Hence the reason he was...

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,

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,

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, and more. As far as I'm aware (you may correct me), this is about the speed of zetsu activating mayfly[

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][

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]. During mayfly, he's incredibly fast, no doubt, but I don't see how he's dodging a high speed magatama in time. I don't know of any feat even suggesting he can get into mayfly that quickly, or even move that quickly himself.

---

Black zetsu is a black glob[

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][

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], yet he has an eye. Where's the inter connective nerves which allow him to see? Where is his brain even located in that soft body? The fact is, he was called a Clone of white zetsu. White zetsu wasn't called a clone of him, he was called a clone of white zetsu. Now, why would anyone make 10s of sighted clones and one blind one?
In fact;
- Where was the logic when Kakuzu had threads sprouting from half his face and his neck?
- Where was the logic when Orochimaru was a giant snake head on 10000 snakes as a body?
- Where was the logic when sasori, an apparent puppet with chakra in it's chest, could see, speak and hear? Please, tell me how sasori could see or hear? Chakra can't see, nor can it hear. His puppet didn't have actual eyeballs considering he was puppet hopping with no regard.
- Even better, where was the logic when Konan turned entirely into paper? Did she destroys her eyes, ears, brain, organs and then reform them later on? Is konan sightless also?[

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][

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][

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][

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][

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][

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] Clearly she isn't because we saw eyes, yet she can completely

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?

Just because SZ is some shell casing doesn't mean he can't see. Unless explicitly stated by the manga that this guy has no eyeballs what so ever, a scan of him opening up isn't conclusive evidence. Like previously stated, people like kakuzu, orochimaru, sasori, even konan, shouldn't be able to do what they do, yet they can?

"Other than Tsukuyomi, Sharingan Genjutsu is normal and easy to fight. "
Really now... Is that why chiyo, in that very chapter, said to

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? Is that why deidara

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? Is that why

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? Is that why danzo

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? You're thinking of only power. Power is irrelevant without skill. Madara, using a twig, would probably still beat the shit out of Itachi. Give Sakura perfect susano'o and unlimited izanagi and she might just end up killing herself. Obito put it nicely, "

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"

---

Fair points well made.

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How was that willpower...? This is a discussion about itachi's stamina. In no way does sheer willpower give you enough chakra to sustain a V3 Susano'o for several seconds, if not minutes, while drained of chakra. Being able to Control the juubi and having remaining chakra isn't even nearly the same thing... When kakashi used the last drop of his chakra, he

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. Will power didn't keep itachi alive, chakra did.

That scan you posted doesn't say itachi definitely can't put out more than 3 MS techs. All it says is that when he uses Ama and tsuku, he should rest. That could be because a) He was just trying to get kisame to follow him out of konoha so they wouldn't start a war. Or, B) He didn't want to blind himself like sasuke did in 1 week. Itachi had his MS for years; He wouldn't have if for so long by throwing his vision away spamming techs. As for that Sasuke scan, I understand the body crippling effects of susano'o, but that has nothing to do with Chakra, it's all about withstanding the bone crushing pain of susano'o. The same sasuke who was in so much pain by using ribcage, went on to battle danzo for 10 minutes with susano'o on near the entire time. Pain can be fought through, the same way itachi was clearly doing it during his battle with sasuke [

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][

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]. A little pain isn't going to save Zetsu from destruction incarnate.

I'm not seeing how 5 elemental jutsu are going to be remotely useful. In order to use that attack you're talking about, Zetsu has to be within close range. How exactly is he getting that close to itachi? Let's make 2 scenario's here...

a) Zetsu does his 5 elemental combos and Itachi tanks it with V2; Zetsu's still too far away to use this attack... Ribcage is strong enough to tank lightning, and V1 is strong enough to tank Tenpechii. Zetsu's 5 elements, that hiruzen could match, surely isn't near the power of the juubi.
b) Zetsu uses shinshuu's attack, does mayfly, for argument sake we'll say he successfully kills itachi, and now he dies to his own attack? It's highly unlikely he can do this attack, or any jutsu really, while using mayfly, so he'd have to expose himself to danger to draw this match.

In order to use the tech, he has to be within range. Seeing as obito used it while at point blank range, the range is most likely very short[

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].
Apart from that, when a ground attack like that is occuring, there's enough time for an opponent to see[

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][

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][

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] the attack coming and attempt to react accordingly if they possess the skill - something made far easier for itachi by the fact that the sharingan can see chakra through solid earth[

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]. Once zetsu launches this attack, Sasuke just lets his V1-V3 susano'o casually tank Shinshuu's elemental attacks, then he proceeds to rip down this incoming mokuton attack, slice off Shinshuu's arms

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, and

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.
Or, hey, if that's too much of a bother, he can always use plan B, and Run away from the attack. Seeing as Hiruzen, who was

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, had time to

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, with his lovely 3 points in speed, itachi should have no problem just straight up hauling ass away from shinshuu and zetsu's attack.

can i get evidence that spiral Zetsu, white zetsu's clone, is > white zetsu?

---

BTW, how many posts are we making..?

 

[Hokage Jay]

Itachi better win this I bet 10k dollars on him

 

[Bronze]

I will make my final post and you can either counter it or leave it for judges to choose the winner.

 

[Curse Mark]

I will make my final post and you can either counter it or leave it for judges to choose the winner.

Bring honor to Zetsu!

 

[Bronze]

Bring honor to Zetsu!

And I shall

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[AGoodBoy]

I will make my final post and you can either counter it or leave it for judges to choose the winner.

Alright. Expect A possible great wall of text from me as final post.

 

[Hokage Jay]

Alright. Expect A possible great wall of text from me as final post.

That's my boy

 

[Bronze]

---

''Then I guess its time for you to witness the full power of Dimitri Rascalov''

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---

Deva path was not defeated by transformation jutsu. It was tricked by it. And how does Itachi make it effective against spiral Zetsu? He is a sensory, so he can detective flaws in Itachi's flow of chakra. The Genjutsu portion has been addressed that doesn't work on spiral Zetsu.

Explosion spreads after donated. This picture demonstrates it [

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]. Kakashi and Kurenai weren't even that far away. They were only 1 step, and judging from Kakashi's cloths, he was caught in it [

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]. Spiral Zetsu's body acts as an Armour [

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]. In fact, Obito's body that is made of the same artificial substance as spiral Zetsu have been shown to survive powerful attacks, such as:

-Naruto's KCM Rasengan
-Suigetsu's sword strike

Obito only contains half of the substance, while spiral Zetsu is fully constructed of it. So, he should be able to take clone explosion without serious side-effect.

Your scan of Tsunade being hit by Yasaka Magatama was because she charged in recklessly and was on point blank range. Itachi's Yasaka Magatama weren't shown to be destructive [

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]. And there is no absolute feat of Yasaka Magatama's speed attacks. With some distance and fact acknlowed most of Itachi's arsenal spiral Zetsu should be able to avoid it via mayfly.

---

Black Zetsu has a yellow eyeball that can be seen. White Zetsu is only a clone, because he shares the same genes as spiral Zetsu. Does that change the fact that his construction design is completely? No it doesn't. We have twins in real life who count as clones, yet the look different and example is my oldest brother and sister. Sharing genes =/= looking the same [

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]. The example fits exactly to white Zetsu and spiral Zetsu. Furthermore, the panel shows spiral Zetsu opening his body:

Spoiler

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Point them out for me. You wont be able to, because spiral Zetsu's base design differs from everyone else. To say that he has some sort of vision that you cannot even see is a baseless claim and will need evidence to support it.

Not sure what you are trying to point out from that list. Its not logical for them to do so, yet its logic for spiral Zetsu to have eyes when there is no evidence or scan shows he does.

What do you think the clones are exactly for? They are to help spiral Zetsu [

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]. Besides, they will give him advantage in number.

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1st of all, Kisame is not stupid enough to fall for Itachi's words as the point you made. The second point you made, not really since Sasuke against Killer Bee used 1 Tsukuyomi and 2 Amatersu and didn't go blind. The same wont happen with Itachi. We have seen his battle against Sasuke and using Tsukuyomi hurt badly:

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After using 3 MS techniques, he was on the brink of death and most chakra were deleted. Its pointless adding his Katons, clones, and normal Genjutsu as those barely tax chakra. And you posted the scan of him caughing blood after sustaining Susanoo for minutes. Itachi's stamina and chakra reserves does not help him in this fight and by risking Susanoo straight away will put a risk on his life which leads to his loss in this match.

No, you're understand my tactic on this. Spiral Zetsu is not going to kill himself. I will explain it:

The 5 element attacks are not close range. Read the description that says range:

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All of them are long ranges, because of that, it will take advantage of Itachi's distraction by sending out a spiral Zetsu clone to kill Itachi via Mokuton branches. Regarding your point about the Sharingan seeing through rocks, the attack has to be right in front of Itachi, but the clone is behind the blind spot of Sharingan, so its impossible to react. And you're wrong. The Shinsuusenju is attacking the clone, not the original, so its not a suicide.

White Zetsu is a failed experiment. Also, the conditions says spiral Zetsu has the person and combination of black and white Zetsu's abilities. Therefore, the clones he would make are more powerful and suited for battle as spiral Zetsu himself.

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[video=youtube;VN4upVaDFFs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN4upVaDFFs[/video]​

 

[Apêx1]

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This debate is heated. Keep it up.

 

[shelke]

Nice Debate you guys have going on here.

 

[Bronze]

Nice Debate you guys have going on here.

Thank you.​

 

[Yolobito Swagchiha]

Interesting debate.

 

[Bronze]

Interesting debate.

Thank you.​

 

[AGoodBoy]

Dim I'll respond to this tomorrow. Just came online.. .If i make a rebuttal now, sun will rise on me before I even finish Zzz

 

[Hokage Jay]

I'll back up Itachi if he loses

 

[Beans2]

Interesting debate so far guys.