-> Hirashin users lose to EMS Madara

[Unorthodox]

Waltz is the only dude who i consider to be more knowlegefull about naruto series then myself great thread asual

 

[Waltz]

You've sucessfully proved that tagging is redundant. However, Minato, at the very least, has an alternate method of enabling FTG usage against susanoo.

First off, I strongly disagree about it not constantly being charka for several reasons. First of, your example of it not being solid by no means demonstrates that it is not chakra. Chakra, in general, is not solid without shape transformation. So it may very well be that susanoo, when intangible, is released of its shape transformation and goes to its natural chakra state.



Minato's counter would be chakra transfer. In order for it to work, it requires physical contact or contact with chakra. As I've stated above, there's nothing truly indicating that Susanoo is pure yin energy and isn't just intangible, natural, chakra. Upon touching the chakra of Susanoo, Minato can transfer a piece of his chakra into the susanoo user. Unlike what you said earlier, susanoo, in general, needs to have a constant source of chakra to be maintained. In other words, once the chakra source(the user) is severed, it will fade shortly after, so no, there still is a connection. Throwing a sword is no different from ransenshuriken. It's like saying SM chakra isn't connected to the user because it can be used to throw a ransenshuriken.



After transfering chakra to Madara, Minato can teleport to the susanoo user whenever he pleases as this would fit the condition for FTG. Also, by extension, this means that he could teleport Madara himself to any of his marks.


Here's the counter I devised for both Minato and Tobirama. The real ones can teleport to a mark. They have their clones touch susanoo's chakra. The end result is 1 of 2 things.


A. Susanoo is connected to the user, and thus, the susanoo and its user are teleported to the mark, which automatically put the FTG users inside of the susanoo.


B. Susanoo is not connected to the user. If this is the case, then they teleport the susanoo away from the susanoo user. When they do this, they simultaneously drop a kunai in that location. This enables the originals to teleport right back to the susanoo user before they can reactivate susanoo.

Intangible Susano'o cannot be chakra lacking shape transformation when chakra is a molding of two energies which takes place within the users body As well as:

-> The entity, though intangible has a form
-> The entity is visible to the naked eye.

@Red: Susano'o is a form made out of nothingness. Chakra is an intangible form made out of nothingness. 'Chakra' is the moulding of Yin and Yang energies together within the body and can thus be used to produce jutsu. Depending on the nature of the Jutsu it may require more of either energy. The Uchiha's brain is saturated with Inton energy which is inherent to them from Hagoromo: Spiritual-Mental energy. This energy causes a change in their optic nerve to bring about the Sharingan and it's following jutsu which are all also based on this Inton energy: Amatearasu, Genjutsu, Susano'o.

@Green: There is a difference. Naruto cannot freely manipulate Rasen-Shuriken after it's been thrown at the opponent. The type of control Madara has over Susano'o cannot be pitted against something such as the Rasengan. It negates your argument.

@Blue: It still depends on the version of Susano'o teleported. Given the size of the Stabilized Kanzentai Susano'o I highly doubt this tactic would be of any help against Madara. they would remove his Susano'o and he would be in the air above the original Hirashin user.


​

 

[ntel]

Lol

This was my original Argument, which still holds




Now as for the 4 points:

1. Madara can manipulate his Susanoo just like any other member but he didn't manipulate the trajectory of the TBB after it was fired. That's pure BS. Hashirama didn't want the the layout of the battlefield to be changed that's why he used Rashomon to change it's trajectory. So as said in my quote, the Jikukan Keekei i.e. S/T barrier works!

2. The Hiraishin user doesn't need to "Tag" Susanoo. A chakra link via a shadow clone is enough. Again in my quote I never said Minato/Tobirama "tags" Susanoo I only said "touch" meaning a link is all that is needed Lol

3. Link between Susanoo and it's user:

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The four possibilities written in my quote work fine U_U

4. Other:

(i) Hiraishin Users have Large Chakra pools. Minato mastered the Perfect SM that alone confirms he had a very large chakra pool. Tobirama was a Senju who battled Madara for days, killed his brother Izuna. There never was a question about his chakra pool Lol

(ii) The Kyuubi gets teleported and a contract seal could be used at any time. Aslo Madara could re-summon it but before he does that he gets blitzd seeing how Hiraishin users are the fastest of their era, sai by Madara himself U_U

(iv) Nidaime has never once been caught in a genjutsu Lol Edo Tensei beats Madara without much difficulty

(v) Minato has never once been caught in a genjutsu, even the best genjutsu user by feats i.e. Obito couldn't put Minato under.

This^^^^

EMS Madara alone against Minato or Tobirama would be a good battle,Kyubi is abit of overkill,doubt Madara would use him since he only needed it against Hashirama to try and match his power.

Shadow Clones counter Genjutsu,I doubt Minato would get caught as he didnt with Obito and knowing a genius prodigy like himself while being the 4th Hokage...yeah aint going to happen.

 

[Rosae]

Waltz, this is a well thought out thread. It answers a lot of questions that people may have been pondering about certain hypothetical scenarios. With this said, I'll address a few of the final points of your argument.

-> No hirashin user maintain chakra pools that could rival Madara's and would simply be outlasted.
-This is hypothetical at best. We're not entirely sure of the amount of chakra a single instance of Hiraishin consumes. This can be evidenced by the fact that it requires a team of 3, outside of the 2nd and 4th, to utilize it correctly. It's fallacious to assume that by fighting for an extended period of time is equivalent to overall chakra capacity. To my knowledge, It's not known for how long in the battle of Hashirama and Madara, Madara had Kyuubi summoned, or engulfed in his PS. To add to this, Uchiha's are known for their chakra potency, not capacity. It implies that the chakra cost for their sharingan-based techniques only consume a fraction of their chakra in comparison to a non-Uchiha (I.E. Kakashi). To further add onto this, observe the only two hiraishin users in the manga. One is a Senju. This is the group which inherited the sages body. This equates to relatively high chakra amounts. Next, let's look at Minato. This is a man who's reserves were large enough that he had the ability to drawn in natural energy, and obtain the sage mode. The only individuals who've accomplished such a feat naturally have been Jiraiya, Hashirama, Minato, and Naruto. Corporal deficiencies necessitated that Kabuto and Orochimaru alter their biochemical composition to create a body that could handle it. With this said, I see Madara having more "potent" chakra, but not more overall.

-> Even if teleported, the Kyuubi can be re-summoned.
-This again is based on assumptions without knowing an individuals overall chakra capacity. Summons consume massive amounts of chakra. We're not certain of how much chakra is consumed each instance, and whether the sharingan compensates by diminishing overall chakra cost.

-Concerning your points about Nidaime and Yondaime being captured in a genjutsu, observe the words of "Ei". He, who was caught in genjutu by Madara himself, lie astonished that such a thing could happen. Mind you that he was easily bested by Minato in this department. Excessive speed, paired with heightened reactions, has consistently been shown to be the most plausible counter to sharingan based genjutsu (direct contact variant only).

Like I said, you have a good thread. My problem lies in that certain assumptions were made. Assumptions that sway the argument in your favor.

 

[Behemoth55]

doesn't mean it can stop all hostile illusions, as evidenced by the fact that sasuke and Itachi could not break out of tayuya's sound based genjutsu without help from each other.

Actually, they used just the easiest way to release Mateki Mugen Onsa(They didn't even tried to release it of their own though). It's also clear since Part 1 that Tayuyas Genjutsu loose it's power, if the target feels pain and we should consider Sasuke escaped already out of stronger Genjutsu than Mateki Mugen Onsa. I guess, these scene should just emphasize their team-work as brothers. However, maybe you're right though.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Intangible Susano'o cannot be chakra lacking shape transformation when chakra is a molding of two energies which takes place within the users body As well as:

-> The entity, though intangible has a form
-> The entity is visible to the naked eye.

@Red: Susano'o is a form made out of nothingness. Chakra is an intangible form made out of nothingness. 'Chakra' is the moulding of Yin and Yang energies together within the body and can thus be used to produce jutsu. Depending on the nature of the Jutsu it may require more of either energy. The Uchiha's brain is saturated with Inton energy which is inherent to them from Hagoromo: Spiritual-Mental energy. This energy causes a change in their optic nerve to bring about the Sharingan and it's following jutsu which are all also based on this Inton energy: Amatearasu, Genjutsu, Susano'o.

@Green: There is a difference. Naruto cannot freely manipulate Rasen-Shuriken after it's been thrown at the opponent. The type of control Madara has over Susano'o cannot be pitted against something such as the Rasengan. It negates your argument.

@Blue: It still depends on the version of Susano'o teleported. Given the size of the Stabilized Kanzentai Susano'o I highly doubt this tactic would be of any help against Madara. they would remove his Susano'o and he would be in the air above the original Hirashin user.


​

Separating chakra into yin and yang does not make them not chakra.

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Part of "yin" is powerful chakra, not just spiritual manifestations. There have been countless instances that have implied that the Uchiha's yin power is, itself, chakra. It's also been hinted numerous times that susanoo is chakra.

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Even if it's yin, it's still chakra. The yin power is the chakra of the Uchiha getting stronger. If it wasn't chakra, it wouldn't even be visible. Also check this out.

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This further supports my chakra argument. Notice how the susanoo goes from its solid state to chakra "flames?" Notice how it looks exactly the same as Naruto's Kurama cloak disappearing? Kurama is not yin and nature. In fact, it's the yang half. This is clearly what chakra does when it becomes less solid. However, it's still chakra, and thus, FTG can be used.

 

[KCN]

Smh bunch of try hards. Ot, no bogard ended ur entire thread. Whether minato will ever get close is irrelevant.

 

[Behemoth55]

There have been countless instances that have implied that the Uchiha's yin power is, itself, chakra.

Nah, I guess, you're misunderstanding something, Naruto.

Yin=spiritual energy=>only a part of the concept of chakra

Spiritual energy+physical energy=chakra

But the Seishitsuhenka Inton on the other hand is chakra, yes. The components of Inton-chakra are unbalanced though~for example Makyō no Ran.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Nah, I guess, you're misunderstanding something, Naruto.

Yin=spiritual energy=>only a part of the concept of chakra

Spiritual energy+physical energy=chakra

But the Seishitsuhenka Inton on the other hand is chakra, yes. The components of Inton-chakra are unbalanced though~for example Makyō no Ran.

I'm not familiar with all the japanese terms so I have no idea what you just said. My point is, susanoo's nature is rooted in chakra, and it's not simply yin energy implanted with yang energy. It's chakra, pure and simple, even when it appears to be intangible.

 

[Xlad]

Haven't seen a good thread in a while. Really nice.

 

[Behemoth55]

I'm not familiar with all the japanese terms so I have no idea what you just said. My point is, susanoo's nature is rooted in chakra, and it's not simply yin energy implanted with yang energy. It's chakra, pure and simple, even when it appears to be intangible.

Actually, I was wrong, sorry. The base of Inton is only the spiritual energy -Seishin Enerugi- in the body of a person which rules over the image. Inton can be used to create form with from nothing. Shikamarus Hiden(Shadow-Jutsu) has also to do with Inton.

Yes, Susanoo is made out of chakra. But there is more in it than meets the eye.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Actually, I was wrong, sorry. The base of Inton is only the spiritual energy -Seishin Enerugi- in the body of a person which rules over the image. Inton can be used to create form with from nothing. Shikamarus Hiden(Shadow-Jutsu) has also to do with Inton.

Yes, Susanoo is made out of chakra. But there is more in it than meets the eye.

It's Ok I guess?????:dunno:

More than meats the eye? Are we dealing with transformers?! Maybe susanoo becomes a jet.

 

[TrollingSage]

It's Ok I guess?????:dunno:

More than meats the eye? Are we dealing with transformers?! Maybe susanoo becomes a jet.

It turns to mother****ing megatron and ***** slaps any FTG user that dares to touch it.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

@Shendu really dude? Unless you are talking about the Juubi size Katon version then ill agree. Any other is just plain ridiculous. *looks at name* Aww, :\.

@ unorthodox lol Waltz will take that as an insult if you compare yourself to him

 

[Behemoth55]

More than meats the eye? Are we dealing with transformers?! Maybe susanoo becomes a jet.

Nah, that's not what I mean. :<

Susanoo represents the material and spiritual world.
If we transfer this statement of the databook on Sasuke and Itachi, then we should realise:

-each of them use one eye especially for Genjutsu(Tsukuyomi) and Enton. I am sure, because Enton was associated with Keitaihenka -the form-giving strength, Inton plays here an important role. Yin=Inton

-the other eye contains Amaterasu. Amaterasu represents the material world and light=> Yang=Yoton

Therefore, Sasuke doesn't need Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo, because he controls, finally, already the form-giving strength with one of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Susanoo is the result of Inton and Yoton.

 

[Waltz]

Waltz, this is a well thought out thread. It answers a lot of questions that people may have been pondering about certain hypothetical scenarios. With this said, I'll address a few of the final points of your argument.

-> No hirashin user maintain chakra pools that could rival Madara's and would simply be outlasted.
-This is hypothetical at best. We're not entirely sure of the amount of chakra a single instance of Hiraishin consumes. This can be evidenced by the fact that it requires a team of 3, outside of the 2nd and 4th, to utilize it correctly. It's fallacious to assume that by fighting for an extended period of time is equivalent to overall chakra capacity. To my knowledge, It's not known for how long in the battle of Hashirama and Madara, Madara had Kyuubi summoned, or engulfed in his PS. To add to this, Uchiha's are known for their chakra potency, not capacity. It implies that the chakra cost for their sharingan-based techniques only consume a fraction of their chakra in comparison to a non-Uchiha (I.E. Kakashi). To further add onto this, observe the only two hiraishin users in the manga. One is a Senju. This is the group which inherited the sages body. This equates to relatively high chakra amounts. Next, let's look at Minato. This is a man who's reserves were large enough that he had the ability to drawn in natural energy, and obtain the sage mode. The only individuals who've accomplished such a feat naturally have been Jiraiya, Hashirama, Minato, and Naruto. Corporal deficiencies necessitated that Kabuto and Orochimaru alter their biochemical composition to create a body that could handle it. With this said, I see Madara having more "potent" chakra, but not more overall.

-> Even if teleported, the Kyuubi can be re-summoned.
-This again is based on assumptions without knowing an individuals overall chakra capacity. Summons consume massive amounts of chakra. We're not certain of how much chakra is consumed each instance, and whether the sharingan compensates by diminishing overall chakra cost.

-Concerning your points about Nidaime and Yondaime being captured in a genjutsu, observe the words of "Ei". He, who was caught in genjutu by Madara himself, lie astonished that such a thing could happen. Mind you that he was easily bested by Minato in this department. Excessive speed, paired with heightened reactions, has consistently been shown to be the most plausible counter to sharingan based genjutsu (direct contact variant only).

Like I said, you have a good thread. My problem lies in that certain assumptions were made. Assumptions that sway the argument in your favor.

Doable on Tobirama's behalf as the Senju were granted Stamina; which in turn is the basis of chakra where as the Uchiha were granted Chakra powers and Mental Energy. However, as Namikaze is not of Senju descent he shouldn't be mentioned in this scenario. He himself deemed Obito's ability to control the Kyuubi an incredible feat as it take's a great toll to control the Kyuubi. Judging by the size of Madara's Katon Jutsu, it isn't farfetched to say that his chakra pools are highly notable but in the end may be triumphed by those of Senju Descent. I'll agree to your second point that it lies in uncertainty.

As for the third: Minato's and Tobirama's abilities do not deny the fact that they have no counter to Mangekyo Genjutsu, if faced with it directly. ​

Separating chakra into yin and yang does not make them not chakra.

Spoiler

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Part of "yin" is powerful chakra, not just spiritual manifestations. There have been countless instances that have implied that the Uchiha's yin power is, itself, chakra. It's also been hinted numerous times that susanoo is chakra.

Spoiler

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Even if it's yin, it's still chakra. The yin power is the chakra of the Uchiha getting stronger. If it wasn't chakra, it wouldn't even be visible. Also check this out.

Spoiler

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This further supports my chakra argument. Notice how the susanoo goes from its solid state to chakra "flames?" Notice how it looks exactly the same as Naruto's Kurama cloak disappearing? Kurama is not yin and nature. In fact, it's the yang half. This is clearly what chakra does when it becomes less solid. However, it's still chakra, and thus, FTG can be used.

"Chakura" isn't "Energy" but rather then molding of two energies. Inton/Spiritual Energy/Yin Energy is one of the two foundation energies upon which Chakra is formed.

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I'm not seeing where you're getting an alternate interpretation; is it possible that you could detail your thoughts? How does Yin equate to Chakra? How does this differ from the Yin which is molded within individuals..? ​

Smh bunch of try hards. Ot, no bogard ended ur entire thread. Whether minato will ever get close is irrelevant.

I will agree that Bogard brought one of the most convincing arguments thus far but it is indubitably a failure on your behalf to say that his post "ended" my thread when it is entirely subjective.

My advise to you is: Don't wank unless you're aware of what you're wankin'. ​

 

[Conspirator.]

Agreed with the thread. I also believe that EMS Madara(no kyuubi) beats Tobirama and alive minato. Although tobirama has a slightly better chance due to having more firepower(so might be able to destroy madara's lower level susanoo)

 

[Penguin]

No one besides a couple of people believe Minato or Tobirama beat Madara, and those people usually show huge favoritism towards the Yondaime or Nidaime. Common sense and manga portrayal leads us to believe Tobirama loses at mid/high diff from this scan [EMS Madara without Kyuubi].

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Now, since everyone is a feat *****, they believe EMS Madara steamrolls him laughable diff because Madara has hug AoE techniques. But they don't know how Kishi will write the battle. But again, I could care less on other people's opinions on this match-up since common sense tells us Madara will win.

 

[FleeOnSight]

So what happens when they tagged Madara? Lol GG

 

[ajpn920]

Most of what I read was purely speculation. You concluded that Minato or Tobirama will lose because of these following factors

1. Madara controls Susano'o like a remote.
2. Tagging Susano'o is redundant
3. Link between Susano'o and the user is misunderstood
4. They will fall because of genjutsu

These 4 listed above are your main argument. No matter how many times I read it, it is all about Susanoo and it's properties. You are implying that they will lose Madara just because they can't get inside Susanoo. Can we conclude the battle just by these factors alone?

No hirashin user maintain chakra pools that could rival Madara's and would simply be outlasted

While there are evidence to support that Minato has a large chakra pool, you downplayed it by saying it can't rival Madara's chakra pool. You are speculating because there is no single scan comparing their chakra pools. It is your belief that Madara has higher chakra pool. There is no way for us to guage their chakra pools if both of them was shown to have large chakra pool. How did you determine that Madara has a higher chakra pool? Right! It's your opinion.

The Kyubi being an element provides Madara an inevitable victory

He already loses to Hashi even with Kyuubi. This alone nullifies your argument of him having an inevitable victory. Minato has a contract seal

Even if teleported, the Kyuubi can be re-summoned

You're ignoring the fact the he's facing the fastest shinobi with FTG. One touch and it's over

Madara could utilize the Sharingan on Nadaime in order to cancel the Edo Tensei

Speculation. It could happen and it could not happen. He was not able to utilize the Sharingan against Hashi who is slower than his brother

Minato fails before Genjutsu

Speculation. We have not seen Minato getting caught in a genjutsu and you're saying like capturing Minato in a genjutsu is as easy as abc when in fact Madara failed to use genjutsu on Hashi which is slower than Minato

So, saying that Madara wins because they can't get past Susanoo is pure BS! Why?

1. You're ignoring the fact that maintaining Susanoo takes a lot of chakra
2. You're implying that Madara will be hiding inside Susanoo the whole time.
3. You're ignoring the fact that whatever jutsu he will launch against Minato will be redirected back at him
4. We saw that Madara do taijutsu battle even against several opponents.
5. A clone from Hashi was able to sneak and stab him. I wonder how difficult for a FTG user to be near him
6. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can transfer his chakra
7. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can seal chakra
8. You're ignoring the fact that Madara can't defend Gamarinsho with his Susanoo
9. You're ignoring the fact that FTG has radius
10. You're ignoring the fact that he will get Obitoed once he will allow the kunai to pass

There are lots of factors to determine the outcome of a battle but there's one thing you fail to analyze. He can't win a battle if he can't hit his opponent. This is common sense. No one can win a fight if the attacks can't land.

Can you at least answer this.

1. How can he harm Minato when Minato has ST barrier capable of redirecting his attacks and has the speed to avoid attacks? Can he win without hurting Minato?

2. How can he defend against Gamarinsho?