[Theory] [FEAR] Analysis: How Madara is Absorbing Chakra

[FearxDeath]

not neccesary anymore.. pure kishi logic dictates madara can use ocular techniques like susanoó without his eyes.
RIP naruto.. for before you had to know the manga to see the flaws, now everyone can.

COME ON!!! REALLY? Ok now I have to invoke Occam's Razor. It has to be easier to believe my theory which may I add is backed up with manga scans and REINFORCED by what we have just scene in the manga. It has to be easier to believe that than it is to believe that Madara has a magical ability to absorb Chakra that has never been suggested or talked about, and then on top of that he can use Susan'o with out eyes... why? Because he is madara ofcourse...

On top of which I want to say something:

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Hashirama KNOWS that madara has Senju DNA and Mokuton... So then why is he surprised at the fact that he can absorb Chakra. Which is something you people are claiming is an ability Madara inherited from Hashirama when he stole Mokuton from him?

Answer: Hashirama cannot absorb Chakra.

 

[davidou]

That has already been considered and there are 2 other occasions where the Rinnegans absorption is used and we see no "bubble" effect. I dont know how this idea has taken off like this but it isnt correct, the bubble effect isnt used everytime the Rinnegan is used to absorb. Lastly and in all fairness Madara absorbing the Chakra is never depicted in the manga, all we see is Madara covered in Amaterasu, then Hashirama saying he absorbed the chakra, then Madara without Amaterasu on him.

One of which being when Madara absorbed Naruto's Rasenshuriken, the other being when Nagato absorbed Killer Bee's Tailed Beast Cloak.

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Secondly even if your assumption is correct you must then explain how Madara can use Susan'o without eyes? Or does Susan'o not require eyes now??? Oh what a wicked web we weave...

What?
Firstly , you misread my post.
I said that the way Madara absorbs chakra ( in chap 657 ) doesn't look like the way rinnengan users absorb chakra.
So , please reread my post.And maybe take a look at manga 657, it seems like you didn't see the bubbles.

Secondly,
What Susano'o is doing in this thread?
We have little information over Susano'o , now (658) we have another little one : Susano'o is not an eye technique.

 

[Mr Hiru]

What?
Firstly , you misread my post.
I said that the way Madara absorbs chakra ( in chap 657 ) doesn't look like the way rinnengan users absorb chakra.
So , please reread my post.And maybe take a look at manga 657, it seems like you didn't see the bubbles.

Secondly,
What Susano'o is doing in this thread?
We have little information over Susano'o , now (658) we have another little one : Susano'o is not an eye technique.

We need further information about this assumption. If you're talking about how Itachi used his Susano'o against Sasuke then you can think again... because the contrary case makes apparition in the battle of Sasuke vs Kakashi, when Sasuke couldn't use Susano'o when he went blind. So no, Susano'o IS an eye technique... The interesting question is "how did Itachi manage to mantain the Susano'o active without his MS, since Sasuke couldn't".

So, it makes a little more of sense to tell that Madara was able to use his Rinnegan remotely.

How do you think Nagato was able to use his puppet's Rinnegan remotely in first place? Proxy. So it's no farfetched to consider FearxDeath's possibility.

--- About the bubbles

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Clearly, there is a bubble, and it was drawn with the purpose of expressing graphically that Madara was absorbing Senjutsu chakra. That's my most objective observation.

I don't think of this being Mokuton property. As far as I remember, we have not seen any mokuton chakra-sucking technique that shows any kind of bubble.

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In the case of the Shinjuu, the chakra is absorbed and just dissappears with no bubbles. Take in mind that this is mokuton chakra-sucking.

---

In other words, yes, you have a valid point... these bubbles are indeed kind of out of place here. Then again, we need more information, that's why people makes theories.

PS: No, I'm not Fear's dog. But it seems I'm aligned with his reasoning this time, so I feel confident enough to give him some support.

 

[FearxDeath]

We need further information about this assumption. If you're talking about how Itachi used his Susano'o against Sasuke then you can think again... because the contrary case makes apparition in the battle of Sasuke vs Kakashi, when Sasuke couldn't use Susano'o when he went blind. So no, Susano'o IS an eye technique... The interesting question is "how did Itachi manage to mantain the Susano'o active without his MS, since Sasuke couldn't".

So, it makes a little more of sense to tell that Madara was able to use his Rinnegan remotely.

How do you think Nagato was able to use his puppet's Rinnegan remotely in first place? Proxy. So it's no farfetched to consider FearxDeath's possibility.

--- About the bubbles

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Clearly, there is a bubble, and it was drawn with the purpose of expressing graphically that Madara was absorbing Senjutsu chakra. That's my most objective observation.

I don't think of this being Mokuton property. As far as I remember, we have not seen any mokuton chakra-sucking technique that shows any kind of bubble.

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In the case of the Shinjuu, the chakra is absorbed and just dissappears with no bubbles. Take in mind that this is mokuton chakra-sucking.

---

In other words, yes, you have a valid point... these bubbles are indeed kind of out of place here. Then again, we need more information, that's why people makes theories.

PS: No, I'm not Fear's dog. But it seems I'm aligned with his reasoning this time, so I feel confident enough to give him some support.

You keep me sane man, I dont understand how everyone is having such a huge problem with this idea.

Ive I were to judge I would say that the absorbing animations are strikingly similar. The only difference being that Madara is using specific area's to absorb as oppose to his entire body and thus we see the frivling at the end as the absorbing animation disolves, lets compare.

Madara Absorbing

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Pain Absorbing

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We have little information over Susano'o , now (658) we have another little one : Susano'o is not an eye technique.

So now Susan'o is not an MS technique? This is the kind of things people are willing to openly accept, as oppose to believing that Madara could use his Rinnegan via Proxy which is an idea SUPPORTED by the Manga itself?

 

[Floydical]

This chapter certainly adds merit to your theory but it certainly does not prove it.

1. If this were the case, it would have been easy for Kishi to explain it already. While there is still the possibility, it is very strange that he would not take a panel or two to do so.

2. If he can indeed use EMS/ Rinnegan through proxy, why does he need his Rinnegan at all? Clearly he wanted his real Rinnegan for a reason, why bother with the eye otherwise?

Considering what we've seen, the idea that Susanoo doesn't need an actual target to be cast and is simply a 'manifestation of chakra' as some people say is pretty logical. And just because Hashi cannot use this particular absorption technique does not mean it doesn't exist. The fact that Madara let himself get hit by things like Gaara's sand bullet instead of deflecting it with proxy god realm should be proof enough that he doesn't have access through proxy, add in the fact that he's happy to have his real Rinnegan back.

 

[FearxDeath]

This chapter certainly adds merit to your theory but it certainly does not prove it.

1. If this were the case, it would have been easy for Kishi to explain it already. While there is still the possibility, it is very strange that he would not take a panel or two to do so.

2. If he can indeed use EMS/ Rinnegan through proxy, why does he need his Rinnegan at all? Clearly he wanted his real Rinnegan for a reason, why bother with the eye otherwise?

Considering what we've seen, the idea that Susanoo doesn't need an actual target to be cast and is simply a 'manifestation of chakra' as some people say is pretty logical. And just because Hashi cannot use this particular absorption technique does not mean it doesn't exist. The fact that Madara let himself get hit by things like Gaara's sand bullet instead of deflecting it with proxy god realm should be proof enough that he doesn't have access through proxy, add in the fact that he's happy to have his real Rinnegan back.

1) Who would be the person explainging it? All the other non Uchiha that have no clue what it is, Kakashi who isnt there or Obito he who about to die and also isnt there, or the ever talkative Madara? How would Kishi logically incorporate an explanation?

2) So that he can see? Because fighting by sensing the Chakra of the people around you is disadvantageous? These questions are fairly weak man? Feels like your grasping straws...

- Obito cannot use Susan'o... Why?

- No it merely proves that Madara is not taking them seriously and is conserving Chakra consider that he will not only have to fight 4 Edo Hokages, but Naruto, Sasuke and an entire Shinobi Army... He even stated how the bullets werent damaging and lacked a finishing move, and was caught off gaurd by there hidden purpose, which was to block his movements.

- Hashirama cant absorb Chakra, other people with Uchiha + Senju DNA cant absorb Chakra, but Madara can... Why? because he is Madara...

1000 bad arguments dont add up to make 1 good argument.

 

[Mr Hiru]

At least it is already proven that Rinnegan is indeed a doujutsu that can be used via proxy. This is not something invented at all, it has been put in our faces during the entire Pain's arc, making use of the black bars as support for channeling chakra.

The thing is, even if Nagato was able to use the black bars, the one with the original eyes was Madara. The later one knows better.

Furthermore, it makes more sense to think that Madara was able to control the Rinnegan via proxy with the help of certain someone.

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Black Zetsu = Black Bars

Don't you agree, Fear? Everything is related to the Rinnegan at this point. If people needs proof of Doujutsus being controlled via proxy, you have an entire arc at your disposal to explain the effect of the black bars on its target, a chapter that proves that the next level of the EMS is the Rinnegan, and a chapter that shows the relationship between Black Zetsu and the Black rods. That's the connection.

and

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.

 

[valandil988]

Well it seems your vindicated in that Madara does indeed have some control over his Rinnegan powers inside his own body without them being present. However it is apparent that the connection is indeed tenuous otherwise he wouldnt care where his eyes are.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Well it seems your vindicated in that Madara does indeed have some control over his Rinnegan powers inside his own body without them being present. However it is apparent that the connection is indeed tenuous otherwise he wouldnt care where his eyes are.

Indeed. That's why in Pain's arc it is stated that for remote control over a dead body Pain had to be in a place near Konoha, in a high place. The technique was alike to Yamanaka's mind control.

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So, if FearxDeath hunch is right, then Madara could be using this technique through Black Zetsu, and he would be needing the eyes so he can recover full control over his techniques (since he only summoned a 'low leveled' Susano'o, compared to what he can really do).

 

[Floydical]

1) Who would be the person explainging it? All the other non Uchiha that have no clue what it is, Kakashi who isnt there or Obito he who about to die and also isnt there, or the ever talkative Madara? How would Kishi logically incorporate an explanation?

2) So that he can see? Because fighting by sensing the Chakra of the people around you is disadvantageous? These questions are fairly weak man? Feels like your grasping straws...

- Obito cannot use Susan'o... Why?

- No it merely proves that Madara is not taking them seriously and is conserving Chakra consider that he will not only have to fight 4 Edo Hokages, but Naruto, Sasuke and an entire Shinobi Army... He even stated how the bullets werent damaging and lacked a finishing move, and was caught off gaurd by there hidden purpose, which was to block his movements.

- Hashirama cant absorb Chakra, other people with Uchiha + Senju DNA cant absorb Chakra, but Madara can... Why? because he is Madara...

1000 bad arguments dont add up to make 1 good argument.

1. Madara could easily have explained it himself. Within just 2 short panels, Madara could have clearly stated something like, "At least I can still access some of my power since Black Zetsu and my Rinnegan are close by." That would have been all we needed.

2. Madara has already shown enough battle skills without eyes that one could argue that simply being able to see, not having a doujutsu but just having normal eyes, would not be beneficial to him. At the end of the chapter he is pleased to have his Rinnegan back, he treats it with great importance and strongly implies that his powers will increase greatly by having the Rinnegan, ie he'll be able to use his abilities. The fact that you think the significance of getting his actual Rinnegan is just the benefit of seeing is the only weak argument here.

- Obito cannot use Susanoo because he never had 2 MS to begin with. The theory is that since Madara unlocked Susanoo already, he can use it without eyes because its a manifestation of chakra and does not require a target with the eyes, unlike other MS techs.

- Madara very likely has even more chakra than prime Nagato, considering how many times Nagato used Shinra Tensei through the course of the Konoha invasion, Madara can clearly spare the chakra. Especialy when it comes to the logic behind saving himself those wounds. Certainly not being wounded like that is far more detrimental to his well being than using a single Shinra Tensei

- I don't really feel like arguing this next point again. You state that you can't believe that Madara has a technique that no one yet in the manga has while we see new techniques created for even the lowliest ninja all the time. Just because something does not have a history in the story that we know of does not mean its impossible to exist.

The bottom line here is that there was no definite proof that what you said was true. If Madara sprouted metal canons with Asura path or pulled out a soul with Human realm or even deflected one blow with Shinra Tensei then one couldn't argue with your theory. Yet, the only things we saw him use were a passive ability that could be classified as healing and a MS technique that does not require a target to be cast on. Surely you understand that explaining things like this is possible without a proxy pair of eyes unlike most other abilities he should have access to under your theory.

At least it is already proven that Rinnegan is indeed a doujutsu that can be used via proxy. This is not something invented at all, it has been put in our faces during the entire Pain's arc, making use of the black bars as support for channeling chakra.

The thing is, even if Nagato was able to use the black bars, the one with the original eyes was Madara. The later one knows better.

Furthermore, it makes more sense to think that Madara was able to control the Rinnegan via proxy with the help of certain someone.

You must be registered for see links

Black Zetsu = Black Bars

Don't you agree, Fear? Everything is related to the Rinnegan at this point. If people needs proof of Doujutsus being controlled via proxy, you have an entire arc at your disposal to explain the effect of the black bars on its target, a chapter that proves that the next level of the EMS is the Rinnegan, and a chapter that shows the relationship between Black Zetsu and the Black rods. That's the connection.

and

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.

Nagato's case is completely different from Madara's. He was not accessing those jutsu from a source separate from his actual body. Rather, Nagato was focusing his power through a medium at a certain distance. The two are completely separate points. Madara directed Obito to use the rods when he used the Sage's techniques. This means Madara was the original creator of the method that Nagato seemingly pioneered. But again this method is not at all the same as what Madara is doing right now.

To re-establish my point, one cannot firmly confirm or deny this theory at this point. Considering the nature of the jutsu we have seen Madara use without his Rinnegan, one cannot confirm without a shadow of a doubt for either side. Again, if Madara clearly used any Rinnegan tech whatsoever it would have been un-arguable for your side.

 

[FearxDeath]

1. Madara could easily have explained it himself. Within just 2 short panels, Madara could have clearly stated something like, "At least I can still access some of my power since Black Zetsu and my Rinnegan are close by." That would have been all we needed.

2. Madara has already shown enough battle skills without eyes that one could argue that simply being able to see, not having a doujutsu but just having normal eyes, would not be beneficial to him. At the end of the chapter he is pleased to have his Rinnegan back, he treats it with great importance and strongly implies that his powers will increase greatly by having the Rinnegan, ie he'll be able to use his abilities. The fact that you think the significance of getting his actual Rinnegan is just the benefit of seeing is the only weak argument here.

- Obito cannot use Susanoo because he never had 2 MS to begin with. The theory is that since Madara unlocked Susanoo already, he can use it without eyes because its a manifestation of chakra and does not require a target with the eyes, unlike other MS techs.

- Madara very likely has even more chakra than prime Nagato, considering how many times Nagato used Shinra Tensei through the course of the Konoha invasion, Madara can clearly spare the chakra. Especialy when it comes to the logic behind saving himself those wounds. Certainly not being wounded like that is far more detrimental to his well being than using a single Shinra Tensei

- I don't really feel like arguing this next point again. You state that you can't believe that Madara has a technique that no one yet in the manga has while we see new techniques created for even the lowliest ninja all the time. Just because something does not have a history in the story that we know of does not mean its impossible to exist.

The bottom line here is that there was no definite proof that what you said was true. If Madara sprouted metal canons with Asura path or pulled out a soul with Human realm or even deflected one blow with Shinra Tensei then one couldn't argue with your theory. Yet, the only things we saw him use were a passive ability that could be classified as healing and a MS technique that does not require a target to be cast on. Surely you understand that explaining things like this is possible without a proxy pair of eyes unlike most other abilities he should have access to under your theory.

1) So he should have told Zetsu something that Zetsu already knew? Why would he tell Zetsu that? For the sake of conversation? And because he didnt do that, therefore that cannot be the reason? But he also didnt say "Its a good thing I can now absorb Chakra with this Senju Uchiha Secret power no one knows about??"

2) What.... So because he is strong, he does not need to have eyes? Dude... Dude... come on... How could anyone argue that being able to SEE!!! would not be beneficial to ANYONE! Hashirama has shown great skill with Taijutsu, but you wouldnt then say that having Ninjutsu wouldnt be beneficial...

- So he got MS... but because he didnt have both eyes when he got MS he didnt get Susan'o... But... He had both eyes to get MS, but technically he didnt... lol

- So now there is the argument that because Madara has alot of chakra he would be ok with wasting chakra? And if he doesnt then THAT is the strange thing?

- No, that is not what I said at all. But I like how you B-lined around the point I was making and built that straw man of yours. My point was that if Madara absorbing ability was inherited from Hashirama then Hashirama would have it, but it is implied that he doesnt, and it is also implied that other Senju + Uchiha's do not have it either, so why does Madara have it? Because he is Madara...

I will say this again, I do not judge prediction theories by right and wrong, rather I judge them by how likely they are to be true. And given Occams Razor and base rational I find it easy to believe that my theory is far more likely than the [Madara can do it because he is Madara] theory. Your response above were very very weak and arguable at best, and 100 weak arguments do not equal up to be 1 good argument.

 

[davidou]

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You say that is a rinnengan jutsu.The eye is very far away from this scene.
( 1 )We generally don't see bubbles when rinnengan users are absorbing ninjutsu...

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( 2 )Why did Madara move his arms to protect his face?He wants to protect his face , he didn't use a rinnengan ability , for exemple black rods , why?
Why didn't Madara use one rinnengan ability fighting the beasts?


Your theory is too simple , unelaborate and not very plausible.

Shortly , I hope you are wrong , and hope you will respond to my 2 points( 1 ) ( 2 )

 

[Floydical]

1) So he should have told Zetsu something that Zetsu already knew? Why would he tell Zetsu that? For the sake of conversation? And because he didnt do that, therefore that cannot be the reason? But he also didnt say "Its a good thing I can now absorb Chakra with this Senju Uchiha Secret power no one knows about??"

2) What.... So because he is strong, he does not need to have eyes? Dude... Dude... come on... How could anyone argue that being able to SEE!!! would not be beneficial to ANYONE! Hashirama has shown great skill with Taijutsu, but you wouldnt then say that having Ninjutsu wouldnt be beneficial...

- So he got MS... but because he didnt have both eyes when he got MS he didnt get Susan'o... But... He had both eyes to get MS, but technically he didnt... lol

- So now there is the argument that because Madara has alot of chakra he would be ok with wasting chakra? And if he doesnt then THAT is the strange thing?

- No, that is not what I said at all. But I like how you B-lined around the point I was making and built that straw man of yours. My point was that if Madara absorbing ability was inherited from Hashirama then Hashirama would have it, but it is implied that he doesnt, and it is also implied that other Senju + Uchiha's do not have it either, so why does Madara have it? Because he is Madara...

I will say this again, I do not judge prediction theories by right and wrong, rather I judge them by how likely they are to be true. And given Occams Razor and base rational I find it easy to believe that my theory is far more likely than the [Madara can do it because he is Madara] theory. Your response above were very very weak and arguable at best, and 100 weak arguments do not equal up to be 1 good argument.

1. SMH he wouldn't tell Zetsu anything, he'd simply say it. After using Susanoo, he said its time to put the biju back on the lease, he could have just said 'its a good thing I can still access some of my power because Black Zetsu and my Rinnegan are close by' [ie via proxy]. Again, he'd simply state it so his opponents could hear, not directly to Zetsu.

2. I'm saying that Madara is so strong without his eyes that simply having normal eyes would not help him a great degree. Logic will tell you that he wanted to Rinnegan back because he needs it to use Rinngan techs, what's so hard to understand?

- Your response is jumbled and makes no sense. Obito does not have Susanoo. Obito unlocked MS for the first time after he had given his sharingan to Kakashi. He never had both MS in his head at one time. He can not use Susanoo.

- It is stranger that Madara would willingly take a significant flesh wound like he did rather than waste a little bit of chakra releasing a small Shinra Tensei blast. keep in mind that while he can heal his wounds, he will ultimately use chakra to do so. So not taking the hit in the first place is a better plan.

- I'm not saying it was inherited by Hashirama directly. The bubbles from his absorption actually resemble the kyuubi cloak more than anything. The fact is its possible it has either some other origin, or an origin beyond Hashirama. Wood jutsu predates Hashirama so its possible abilities in regard to the heritage go beyond even him.

As I said before, I think your theory is possible but it does not have strong enough backing at this point. You continue to fail to admit that there is an obvious lack of offensive Rinnegan techs being used through proxy and an obvious need to have his Rinnegan back beyond simply seeing which is a disadvantage he is clearly minimizing.

 

[FearxDeath]

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You say that is a rinnengan jutsu.The eye is very far away from this scene.
( 1 )We generally don't see bubbles when rinnengan users are absorbing ninjutsu...

You must be registered for see images

( 2 )Why did Madara move his arms to protect his face?He wants to protect his face , he didn't use a rinnengan ability , for exemple black rods , why?
Why didn't Madara use one rinnengan ability fighting the beasts?


Your theory is too simple , unelaborate and not very plausible.

Shortly , I hope you are wrong , and hope you will respond to my 2 points( 1 ) ( 2 )

1) The reason we dont generally see bubbles is because we dont general see people use the Rinnegans absorbing abilities with specific portions of their body, instead we saw pain who used it with his entire body. The bubbles are there just to reflect the edge of the jutsu.

2) Because Rinnegan Abilities are not something people spam, even Obito didnt use his Rinnegan abilities because it was too much on a strain for him. Madara only used it because he had no choice, for the reasons that I explain in the manga. Using it to absorb chakra nullifies the strain to an extent, but wasting it to deflect sand balls that Madara himself said werent enough to stop him would be moot.

3) Which one would you have him use and Why? He didnt use them for the same reason he didnt walk up to them and start absorbing all of their Chakra?

You can "Hope" I am wrong all you want but I dont deal with Hope. I deal with logic, and if your only defense is "If it were true then he would be spamming his Rinnegan abilities" then I am sorry but that wont cut it.

1. SMH he wouldn't tell Zetsu anything, he'd simply say it. After using Susanoo, he said its time to put the biju back on the lease, he could have just said 'its a good thing I can still access some of my power because Black Zetsu and my Rinnegan are close by' [ie via proxy]. Again, he'd simply state it so his opponents could hear, not directly to Zetsu.

2. I'm saying that Madara is so strong without his eyes that simply having normal eyes would not help him a great degree. Logic will tell you that he wanted to Rinnegan back because he needs it to use Rinngan techs, what's so hard to understand?

- Your response is jumbled and makes no sense. Obito does not have Susanoo. Obito unlocked MS for the first time after he had given his sharingan to Kakashi. He never had both MS in his head at one time. He can not use Susanoo.

- It is stranger that Madara would willingly take a significant flesh wound like he did rather than waste a little bit of chakra releasing a small Shinra Tensei blast. keep in mind that while he can heal his wounds, he will ultimately use chakra to do so. So not taking the hit in the first place is a better plan.

- I'm not saying it was inherited by Hashirama directly. The bubbles from his absorption actually resemble the kyuubi cloak more than anything. The fact is its possible it has either some other origin, or an origin beyond Hashirama. Wood jutsu predates Hashirama so its possible abilities in regard to the heritage go beyond even him.

As I said before, I think your theory is possible but it does not have strong enough backing at this point. You continue to fail to admit that there is an obvious lack of offensive Rinnegan techs being used through proxy and an obvious need to have his Rinnegan back beyond simply seeing which is a disadvantage he is clearly minimizing.

1) Yes, He "could" have done that... but the fact that he didnt doesnt take away from what I am saying? Because he has just as much reason not to say it than he does to say it. And your only real reason you have for him to say it is "That way kishi can let us know and we wont have to wonder about it", but why wouldnt kishi want us wondering? It is a way to build suspense...

2) Rinnegan/Sharingan are regular eyes? I will answer the rest of this with qoutes from other members:

Well it seems your vindicated in that Madara does indeed have some control over his Rinnegan powers inside his own body without them being present. However it is apparent that the connection is indeed tenuous otherwise he wouldnt care where his eyes are.

Indeed. That's why in Pain's arc it is stated that for remote control over a dead body Pain had to be in a place near Konoha, in a high place. The technique was alike to Yamanaka's mind control.

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So, if FearxDeath hunch is right, then Madara could be using this technique through Black Zetsu, and he would be needing the eyes so he can recover full control over his techniques (since he only summoned a 'low leveled' Susano'o, compared to what he can really do).

- So he needs both eyes to "Unlock" Susan'o but afterwards you dont need any eyes to use it... Which goes against every MS ability so far, but then again by this logic Susan'o isnt an MS ability, its just some strange thing that Uchiha's can do now... I mean if that makes sense to you then I cant really argue against it. We both know what the other one is saying but were seeing it differently.

- Significant flesh wound that didnt even stop his movements... Use a little Chakra like the same little amount of chakra that kept Obito from using Rinnegan abilities. Sigh... Once again we both know what each other is saying but were seeing 2 different things.

- Madara can do it because he is Madara, I know that your saying, I just dont give Madara so much credit that he is capable of something we didnt even see Obito, the Jinchuriki of the Juubi and reborn Sage of 6paths, use. But whatever, once again we are seeing 2 different things.

I mean you saying Lack of Rinnegan techs, but he did used the absorb tech quite alot. So its a lack of other Rinnegan techs, but then the question would be, what would you have him do. Why didnt Itachi use Izanami on Obito and make him see the error of his ways? Why didnt Obito use Rinne Tensie to revive Rin? Why doesnt Edo Minato just use FTG and RDS Madara in an instant? I mean, questioning the actions of a person is one of the lowest ways of discrediting it.

It has some merit when the actions of a person directly contradict what is being done. But thats not the case I have, instead we have you saying that if he did have a certain something then he should be doing this, but that is opinion and conjecture.

Perhaps I am being a little less than understanding because this is my thread and I could be defensive, but the case your presenting is far from being sufficient in my eyes.

 

[valandil988]

The six paths technique is not an Uchiha one. This seems to have slipped by everyone. It is in fact connected more with the Senju not the Uchiha, its a chakra technique of the body not of the eyes. You may say its a technique of the Rinnegan but this is incorrect we can see the black rods spring forth from zetsu clones what are Hashirama androids. Hence if the original knew this technique he likely could use it.

Also as stated by previous threads Naruto himself is very close to creating the same or has created a very similar technique with his sharing of kyuubi chakra. If Naruto is indeed a Senju/Uzumaki he is expressing his ability to do something no Uchiha could do. Six paths technique (Transmitting and controlling ones chakra from afar).

The Rinnegan techniques are a culmination of both Senju and Uchiha powers melded together. Hence we should see aspects of the rinnegan in both clans. Which we do. Mokuton and Sharingan etc and their associated techniques. Everyone seems to think that the Rinnegan is an Uchiha ability, that its a progression of "their" power but not really.


Want to know who really used Sasunoo in this situation? Zetsu (black in this case I believe) he used the six paths technique on Madara not the other way around.

How embarrassing for Madara....

 

[Mr Hiru]

The six paths technique is not an Uchiha one. This seems to have slipped by everyone. It is in fact connected more with the Senju not the Uchiha, its a chakra technique of the body not of the eyes. You may say its a technique of the Rinnegan but this is incorrect we can see the black rods spring forth from zetsu clones what are Hashirama androids. Hence if the original knew this technique he likely could use it.

Also as stated by previous threads Naruto himself is very close to creating the same or has created a very similar technique with his sharing of kyuubi chakra. If Naruto is indeed a Senju/Uzumaki he is expressing his ability to do something no Uchiha could do. Six paths technique (Transmitting and controlling ones chakra from afar).

The Rinnegan techniques are a culmination of both Senju and Uchiha powers melded together. Hence we should see aspects of the rinnegan in both clans. Which we do. Mokuton and Sharingan etc and their associated techniques. Everyone seems to think that the Rinnegan is an Uchiha ability, that its a progression of "their" power but not really.


Want to know who really used Sasunoo in this situation? Zetsu (black in this case I believe) he used the six paths technique on Madara not the other way around.

How embarrassing for Madara....

Black Zetsu is Madara's will. So in essence, it is one and the same.

But yes, that's a valid point of view.

 

[valandil988]

Black Zetsu is Madara's will. So in essence, it is one and the same.

But yes, that's a valid point of view.

Thanks,

That's another thing I'm not quite clear on. Black zetsu while a manifestation of Madara's will seems to be a separate creature, Ie Madara had to issue orders instead of Black zetsu just "knowing" what to do. Ergo it seems very likely that while black zetsu has an intimate connection with Madara he is still a separate being and likely observed the problem he was having.

Lets face it without the six paths technique Madara was finished he couldn't form seals or move. Zetsu is the only one that could have intervened. I wonder if Madara even asked for help LOL.

The way we know the Six paths tech works is by transmission of chakra to a host body from the user. Not from a host body back to the user. Only time we have seen that is when Naruto used sage mode on Nagato and that was a forceful reversal of the connection by another user (much like black zetsu could do).

Hence I would suggest that black Zetsu used Sasunoo on Madara using his masters body as the host body. Much like Nagato used tendo through Yahiko.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Thanks,

That's another thing I'm not quite clear on. Black zetsu while a manifestation of Madara's will seems to be a separate creature, Ie Madara had to issue orders instead of Black zetsu just "knowing" what to do. Ergo it seems very likely that while black zetsu has an intimate connection with Madara he is still a separate being and likely observed the problem he was having.

Lets face it without the six paths technique Madara was finished he couldn't form seals or move. Zetsu is the only one that could have intervened. I wonder if Madara even asked for help LOL.

The way we know the Six paths tech works is by transmission of chakra to a host body from the user. Not from a host body back to the user. Only time we have seen that is when Naruto used sage mode on Nagato and that was a forceful reversal of the connection by another user (much like black zetsu could do).

Hence I would suggest that black Zetsu used Sasunoo on Madara using his masters body as the host body. Much like Nagato used tendo through Yahiko.

Well, under Narutoverse perspective (aluding to Occam's Razor), Will = Mind = Spiritual Energy = Imagination.

So maybe it is Telepathy behind the curtains. This of course is also possible for someone with Madara/Zetsu abilities...

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[valandil988]

Well, under Narutoverse perspective (aluding to Occam's Razor), Will = Mind = Spiritual Energy = Imagination.

So maybe it is Telepathy behind the curtains. This of course is also possible for someone with Madara/Zetsu abilities...

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I had a notion that Will meant something more along the lines of a directive laid down within Zetsu by Madara to always progress towards the plan as Madara himself envisioned it and not Obito's re-interpretations. Kinda like programming.

 

[osba]

i'm going to read this thoroughly and see if i agree... it seems to be getting as much "counter fire" as my mukuton and mukuton sage mode theories did.

i'd like to put this possibillity forward thoughther than genjutus, wich are actual ocular prowels, a sharingan makes you capable of mastering a jutsu further than a normal human being could.. the path of pain's abillities were never just the sage's, they were just extremely well executed jutsu that require molding and control that a normal human being never could...

chakra absorbtion
advanced fire jutsu
bringing a soul back from the dead, or even in that old lady wich i forgot the name of, complete ressurection.
chakra cloaks or armors
perceiving the enviroment from multiple entities at once
space time ninjutsu
and so on and so on..

i bet you every single non-doujutsu sharingan abillity could be achieved as long as you have the knowledge.. now i'm also sure that for example the susano is indeed only achievable by those that have attained the mangekyo sharingan BUT that might just be because before you got that far, there is simply no way to get a connection with said susano