[Theory] [FEAR] Analysis: How Madara is Absorbing Chakra

[Floydical]

I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy, although I am skeptical of criticism due to the high number of people who disagree for really dumb reasons.

Dont get me wrong, I am not parading this around like everyone is suppose to agree with it. I can understand someone saying that to them it just doesnt seem likely. But to me, in my head, it seems like the most likely possibility given the scenario we are in.

The idea of it being a special new Uchiha/Senju ability never crossed my mind until someone suggested it. It is just hard for me to swallow because:

- There is no such technique, so in affect people are just imaginging/creating a new technique out of thin air to explain a situation that does not require it as oppose to relying on the manga for facts and explaining it that way.

- Obito was also an Uchiha who also possessed Senju DNA, and yet he cannot do this, and so we are left with the [Madara can do it because he is Madara] theory.

It just seems like so much of an ass pull that anything else, even a questionable theory about Madara accessing his Rinnegan through proxy (which we all agree to be possible), would have to true.

Thing is, until a jutsu is actually revealed in the manga, every single theory that turned out to be true would be considered among your "imagining/ creating a new technique out of thin air" category. What I'm saying is that it is not uncommon for Kishi to come up with a new BS technique that had no prior backing in the manga until he suddenly revealed it. He often will create new evidence later to help cement the technique's legitimacy, but in actuality it was likely a last minute idea that he tried to grant prestige to later.

Bottom line is that it is not unlike Kishi to create such a technique that only Madara has direct access to. In fact, considering the position Kishi has put himself into, creating a hax, un-legitimized technique to help his new main villian would generally be accepted in the Naruto community. Yes, people are questioning it, but that technique is in fact what is keeping the story alive right now.

 

[FearxDeath]

Thing is, until a jutsu is actually revealed in the manga, every single theory that turned out to be true would be considered among your "imagining/ creating a new technique out of thin air" category. What I'm saying is that it is not uncommon for Kishi to come up with a new BS technique that had no prior backing in the manga until he suddenly revealed it. He often will create new evidence later to help cement the technique's legitimacy, but in actuality it was likely a last minute idea that he tried to grant prestige to later.

Bottom line is that it is not unlike Kishi to create such a technique that only Madara has direct access to. In fact, considering the position Kishi has put himself into, creating a hax, un-legitimized technique to help his new main villian would generally be accepted in the Naruto community. Yes, people are questioning it, but that technique is in fact what is keeping the story alive right now.

Fair enough, but if we are talking about Izanami we have to remember that Izangi was introduced and as far as japanese lore goes Izangi was married to izanami so that connection infers that that was planned.

Personally I dont think this is a right or wrong thing as much as a personal preference. I dont believe Kishimoto would pull a random technique out of nowhere. Especially when we consider that all this new jutsu does is absorb Chakra. Why do we need to invent a new jutsu that lets Madara absorb chakra when he can already do that with the Rinnegan. So then all we need to do is explain how he is doing it with the Rinnegan and there is no need to invoke plot.

On top of which the question can be raised of why he has been absorbing jutsu with his RInnegan as oppose to using his absorbing powers. Why break it out now if he has always had it. The only purpose he could have for not using it up until now would be because of plot no jutsu.

 

[seanmadison]

so you wouldn't just think that his eye lids are shut because there are no eyeballs behind them..? + agree with his ability to heal with hashi cells, which is why hashi was surprised. Naruto just made an observation about his eyes being closed. I always thought the eyes closing for sasuke and obito examples were wincing from pain/eye strain. and regardless, he doesn't have the rinnegan right now, that is a fact, nagato had them->obito took one hid the other, he hasn't had time to have them. the only eye he could have is the fodder sharingan in one eye, which would give credibility to him closing his eyes with one eye still there

 

[Floydical]

Fair enough, but if we are talking about Izanami we have to remember that Izangi was introduced and as far as japanese lore goes Izangi was married to izanami so that connection infers that that was planned.

Personally I dont think this is a right or wrong thing as much as a personal preference. I dont believe Kishimoto would pull a random technique out of nowhere. Especially when we consider that all this new jutsu does is absorb Chakra. Why do we need to invent a new jutsu that lets Madara absorb chakra when he can already do that with the Rinnegan. So then all we need to do is explain how he is doing it with the Rinnegan and there is no need to invoke plot.

On top of which the question can be raised of why he has been absorbing jutsu with his RInnegan as oppose to using his absorbing powers. Why break it out now if he has always had it. The only purpose he could have for not using it up until now would be because of plot no jutsu.

If Madara did have it up to this point, he wouldn't have used it because he wouldn't have needed it as an edo. He stated he needed Hashi's SM before he was revived, but that was based on the fact that he needed Obito out of the way first. It became clear that he either could not manage to use the jutsu right away, or simply waited considering Obito was on the verge of defeat anyway.

As for the new jutsu, no I was not directly referring to Izanami. While this did come to mind, I was more-so concentrating on fodder type ninja, ninja that have no real relevance to the story, that are randomly granted new jutsu. A prime example is Shino when the Juubi had split smaller copies to fight the SA. He suddenly had the power to utilize a OP bug that he could manually feed massive amounts of chakra, allowing it to grow to massive sizes. This upgrade came out of nowhere and despite him being a fodder ninja, it would be comparable to Madara's upgrade seen here.

There are countless other examples of ninja receiving upgrades like this or at least being granted a new, previously unknown, abilities. Not all these jutsu are truly impacting, but they fall into the category of 'random new made up jutsu out of thin air'. My whole point is that this is not uncommon for Kishi.

Additional point, we have seen close to a dozen new fire/ uchiha techniques performed by Madara or Obito since Obito's reveal. These techniques might have helped to give away Obito's identity, so Kishi waited until he was revealed to show them. Though these exact techniques have no personal history in the manga, it makes sense to apply them to two living Uchiha beause it is natural for Uchiha to use fire jutsu and also natural for Uchiha to have forbidden techniques of their own. Considering Madara has access to Senju/ Uchiha/ Moukuton, it is not far-fetched to say he has another jutsu associated with that clan/ heritage.

 

[Draxus]

- All we know is that he wanted to become human, I dont recall him alluding to any extra power that came with it. And even if that was the case it could easily be that he was revive as an Edo below his full power, much like Hashirama and Tobirama. And in human form he would be stronger.

Yes, very true. Just to be clear, I'm not saying my theory doesn't have holes, but that yours does as well, so you can't call mine laughable in comparison.

- Once you have the eye implanted you always have the abilities? But we already know that the be untrue? Why doesnt kakashi trade his Sharingan with someone else? Give them MS abilities and take there eyes. As a matter of fact he could trade eyes with EVERYONE in the village... now we have a village of people who can use Kamui free of charge? Your theory would break the manga.

Wuh!? Not sure how this got misconstrued, but that is no theory of mine. I meant your theory was basically saying this, since Madara can access his rinnegan ability w/o the eye. I think w/o the eye, you can't have its abilities (period)

- When did Old Madara state this, provide a scan please.

He doesn't say that exactly, but he does say the eyes true potential can only be unlocked when they are together (aka they are linked):

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Later we see this link is realized by Obito being able to see out of Kakashi's sharingan:

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Of course later it's shown again when they both obtain MS simultaneously.

- Show me the scan where Kakashi see's through Obito's eyes so I can verify.

This would be flip of the previous link where Kakashi sees through Obito's sharingan (bottom left):

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- You say being linked to the eye doesnt equate to having access to its abilities, but never explain why.

I don't have to explain it, because this has never been shown or said to be true. You're the one making the claim that it does, so the hones is on you. I'm in the "skeptical" camp on this.

- You just showed 2 scans one where we see the bubbling effect and one where we dont. So please explain what your talking about.

I don't see where you see the same effect Madara showed when he sapped Hashi and that fodder in either of the links I provided, so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[FearxDeath]

Yes, very true. Just to be clear, I'm not saying my theory doesn't have holes, but that yours does as well, so you can't call mine laughable in comparison.

Well dont keep them to yourself, point out these holes

Wuh!? Not sure how this got misconstrued, but that is no theory of mine. I meant your theory was basically saying this, since Madara can access his rinnegan ability w/o the eye. I think w/o the eye, you can't have its abilities (period)

What I am saying is that it has been proven that a Uchiha can access his Eyes via Proxy. So then how hard is it to believe that he can also access the powers of his Eyes via Proxy.

He doesn't say that exactly, but he does say the eyes true potential can only be unlocked when they are together (aka they are linked):

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Later we see this link is realized by Obito being able to see out of Kakashi's sharingan:

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Of course later it's shown again when they both obtain MS simultaneously

- What Madara is saying and what your saying Madara is saying is 2 completely different things.

- To my knowledge Kakashi has never scene through Obito's eyes. Yet you say he could, so I am asking you to show me where he did this.

I don't have to explain it, because this has never been shown or said to be true. You're the one making the claim that it does, so the hones is on you. I'm in the "skeptical" camp on this.

That is called a negative proof fallacy. You make a statement of opposition and you must explain that opposition.

This would be flip of the previous link where Kakashi sees through Obito's sharingan (bottom left):

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Re-itterate what that scan is suppose to mean to me so i know what to make of it.

 

[Draxus]

Well dont keep them to yourself, point out these holes



What I am saying is that it has been proven that a Uchiha can access his Eyes via Proxy. So then how hard is it to believe that he can also access the powers of his Eyes via Proxy.



- What Madara is saying and what your saying Madara is saying is 2 completely different things.

- To my knowledge Kakashi has never scene through Obito's eyes. Yet you say he could, so I am asking you to show me where he did this.



That is called a negative proof fallacy. You make a statement of opposition and you must explain that opposition.



Re-itterate what that scan is suppose to mean to me so i know what to make of it.

First off you need to learn you fallacies, I don't think negative proof means what you think it means. I'm not making an evidence of absence argument when I say, "The ability for one eye to see through another eye, doesn't equate to a former owner of an eye having access to it's abilities." Because this simply not true, it's a theory that you're trying to pretend is true to shift burden of proof. You are committing a burden of proof fallacy. It's always the theory-makers job to prove, the opposition always has the right to not believe them and they don't need any logical reason other than, "you can't prove it, so I choose not to believe it."

As far as what Madara said, it can be left up to your interpretation. However it seems to heavily imply that a pair of sharingans are linked to each other. I'm not sure how you can say it doesn't. You can't apply Obito's eye's link to Kakashi's as proof that Madara has link to his rinnegan as he doesn't have an eye at all.

Lastly, At this point I'm pretty sure you're just being intentionally obtuse. Clearly you can see Kakashi is observing Naruto and Sasuke through Obito's eye in the link I posted, then ask what it's supposed to mean to you, when just three lines above and in you previous post you say you've never seen Kakashi see through Obito's eye. WTF!? I'm here to give respectful critique to your theory, not to be trolled.

If you don't want to have a real discussion I'll move on.. Your theory is perfect and will no doubt come to be true, Fear! You must be the next Derp Obito with your profit-like analysis of the manga! You have considered every bit of information in the manga, leaving no possibility of holes or doubt, culminating in a precise observation as if you were the fabled Kishi Whisperer!

Now we should both be satisfied with this, no?

 

[Mr Hiru]

Burden of proof... negative proof... fallacies... man, I love when discussion threads reach these extents.

a) You can't state something and put on it the label "fact" when you don't have definite proof supporting it. If you have hints but not definite proof, it's just an hypothesis, a possibility. The problem is when you transform this possibility in dogma (a complete impossibility or a complete certainity), it makes the overall theory to lose solidness, and people realizes this kind of things when they are more objective. This is known as negative proof fallacy, assuming that something is true when people can't prove that this something is false, and viceversa (rejecting the possibility of the contrary).

b) You can't nullify a possibility if there is no definite proof against it. But if you find hints that plays against these possibilities, you can weaken them. In any case, the one who makes the statement (positive or negative) is the one with the burden of proof.

...there are a lot of styles of argumentation, and a lot of them uses fallacies as a must, sometimes by accident, or sometimes as resources to reach the truth (one of the much truths out there). These fallacies are almost unavoidable.

...in both cases, positive or negative, lack of proof means void argument. The burden of proof is on the person who makes this claim.

Take that in mind, Fear, Draxus. It seems both of you got in middle of that bad practice. If you won't support your statements, it's better to go on with the thread, because your debate just reached a dead end.

 

[valandil988]

We have seen Hashirama absorb/suppress chakra using his Mokuton ninjutsu. So its not much of a leap to suggest he doesn't need the medium of wood to absorb chakra. So I would agree Madara is probably using Hashi's powers quite heavily atm.

However on your comments about the Rinnegan and that he can utilize techniques from it even if it isn't present in his head seems a bit far fetched to me, I'll agree that the Rinnegan visual link must still be there, IE he can look through Obito's eyes but as far as using petra path? We'll have to wait for more evidence that is less circumstantial. Because as of right now this chakra absorption could be confused with Mokuton/Hashi's powers compared to the Petra path. Its impossible to tell which.

Also Madara closing his eyes is probably it all likely hood an artistic choice on the part of Kishi, It would make Madara look super creepy if he kept his eyes open to see his eye-less sockets. Madara comes off way cooler for closing his eyes. Naruto comments on it to draw attention to the fact that Madara has in fact lost his eyes. When I was reading the manga it wasn't immediately obvious to me. So trusty Naruto helps the reader know what is going on.

 

[FearxDeath]

First off you need to learn you fallacies, I don't think negative proof means what you think it means. I'm not making an evidence of absence argument when I say, "The ability for one eye to see through another eye, doesn't equate to a former owner of an eye having access to it's abilities." Because this simply not true, it's a theory that you're trying to pretend is true to shift burden of proof. You are committing a burden of proof fallacy. It's always the theory-makers job to prove, the opposition always has the right to not believe them and they don't need any logical reason other than, "you can't prove it, so I choose not to believe it."

Lastly, At this point I'm pretty sure you're just being intentionally obtuse. Clearly you can see Kakashi is observing Naruto and Sasuke through Obito's eye in the link I posted, then ask what it's supposed to mean to you, when just three lines above and in you previous post you say you've never seen Kakashi see through Obito's eye. WTF!? I'm here to give respectful critique to your theory, not to be trolled.

If you don't want to have a real discussion I'll move on.. Your theory is perfect and will no doubt come to be true, Fear! You must be the next Derp Obito with your profit-like analysis of the manga! You have considered every bit of information in the manga, leaving no possibility of holes or doubt, culminating in a precise observation as if you were the fabled Kishi Whisperer!

Now we should both be satisfied with this, no?

1) The way the negative proof fallacy works is "If you cannot proof X to be true it therefore must be false" [and vice versa]. The reason this is a fallacy is because just because something cannot be readily proven does not neccesarily mean it is false. You cannot say that you are going to believe it is false until I prove it to be true because as I just explained that is not always logically possible. Therefore, both parties, one claiming something to be true and the other to be false are responsible for giving there proof/reasons for believing so. Negative Proof was a poorly chosen term a better term would have been Ad Ignorantiam

You try and twist it on me saying I need to prove my Theory to be right and you dont need to prove it to be wrong. But You are the one who claimed I didnt sufficiently prove my theory and asked for even more evidence, which I didnt have. That would have been OK, but then you made a statement that my Theory was false, I asked you to provide evidence for this and you said you didnt need to provide it saying that because I didnt prove it to be true [to you] that that made it false. I responded saying that that is a logical fallacy.

2) Once again your an incorrect here, what I said specifically was "Show me the scan where Kakashi see's through Obito's eyes so I can verify.". You brought this up in a previous response and I merely asked you to provide a scan of this so I could be sure it really happened, since I didnt remember it. Now I have seen it and agree that it happened, I am asking you of the importance of it and why you brought it up. I understood the jist of why it was said but I would like you to elaborate a bit more on the idea so I know what I am dealing with.

3)Sorry if the way I approached things were a little confusing or offputting I am used to debating in a specific way. I am more than willing to continue this because I feel like your going somewhere, chances are you could prove me wrong.

Burden of proof... negative proof... fallacies... man, I love when discussion threads reach these extents.

Lol, this is what makes Hirudora awesome!

Take that in mind, Fear, Draxus. It seems both of you got in middle of that bad practice. If you won't support your statements, it's better to go on with the thread, because your debate just reached a dead end.

In all fairness it isnt an act of not supporting statements, rather an act of the other party not accepting the supporting statements to be valid or credible.

...in both cases, positive or negative, lack of proof means void argument. The burden of proof is on the person who makes this claim

It would be fine and fair if he said he simply didnt believe my thread, but instead he said my thread was false, I asked him why and he said he doesnt need to prove it to be wrong, it was my job to prove it to be wrong and if I didnt do that then it was false. I merely let him know that that was a fallacy... The side effects of a world that has accepted the ideology of atheistic propaganda.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Lol, this is what makes Hirudora awesome!

You are not less awesome than I, and I don't need proof for that claim of mine .

In all fairness it isnt an act of not supporting statements, rather an act of the other party not accepting the supporting statements to be valid or credible.

Exactly. People who claims a statement must provide proof to support this claim, but everyone has the right to doubt.

But if you doubt this claim, you don't need proof to doubt... this is natural... to ask "why?", to tell that "I don't believe".

Albeit, if you want to earn the right to break a theory or nullify a statement, you need definite proof, since the act of nullify is not only a doubt, but an absolute claim that is worth of analysis. This is far beyond of barrier of doubt.

It would be fine and fair if he said he simply didnt believe my thread, but instead he said my thread was false, I asked him why and he said he doesnt need to prove it to be wrong, it was my job to prove it to be wrong and if I didnt do that then it was false. I merely let him know that that was a fallacy... The side effects of a world that has accepted the ideology of atheistic propaganda.

Fair enough. I explained in my previous paragraph what I think about doubts and what's the difference between a doubt and an explicit attempt to nullify a statement (that of course, it is a statement, something that needs proof).

Summing it... nobody can tell your theory is false "just because you can't ensure certainity". That's negating a possibility, this is called negative proof fallacy.

If someone really wants to tell that your theory is false, this someone needs definite proof. That's the way it works (it is the third rule of my motto).

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

You guys are acting like the only ways to absorb chakra are through the Rinnegan...

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Take note that Samehada is not with Kisame at that moment.

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Two others have been seen with the ability to absorb chakra (maybe more, but I'm not gonna look)

 

[Mr Hiru]

You guys are acting like the only ways to absorb chakra are through the Rinnegan...

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Take note that Samehada is not with Kisame at that moment.

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Two others have been seen with the ability to absorb chakra (maybe more, but I'm not gonna look)

In fact, I don't. I'm opened to possibilities.

 

[FearxDeath]

In fact, I don't. I'm opened to possibilities.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[adeshina365]

Hmmmm

Spoiler

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[Mr Hiru]

I'd say this is an asspull in its purest state but, actually, if what I'm watching is true... this strengthens FearxDeath's theory about using Doujutsu abilities via proxy. Susano'o is not a Senju ability (clearly), so the whole thing about Mokuton's chakra absorbing has been weakened for Madara's case.

Way to go Fear.

 

[FearxDeath]

I'd say this is an asspull in its purest state but, actually, if what I'm watching is true... this strengthens FearxDeath's theory about using Doujutsu abilities via proxy. Susano'o is not a Senju ability (clearly), so the whole thing about Mokuton's chakra absorbing has been weakened for Madara's case.

Way to go Fear.

*Bow*

Its always nice to have a theory proven right, especially when there were so many people who argued against it when it made perfect sense. At this point no one can deny that Madara is using his Sharingan/Rinnegan via proxy!

 

[davidou]

When Madara absorbs chakra , it makes bubbles on his skin.
It looks like his cells are directly absorbing chakra , or his skin...


That does not look like the rinnengan ability to absorb chakra.

It looks like the formation of bijuu cloaks over Jinchuriki skin.
That must have something to do with vitality , Madara showing us this technique only 2 seconds after recovering "life".

Like Hashirama trees , like Juubi , like zetsu (plants) , Madara can absorb all type of chakra directly via any of his cells.
The mecanism of that absorption will teach us a lot of things over chakra and life , History.

 

[FearxDeath]

When Madara absorbs chakra , it makes bubbles on his skin.
It looks like his cells are directly absorbing chakra , or his skin...


That does not look like the rinnengan ability to absorb chakra.

It looks like the formation of bijuu cloaks over Jinchuriki skin.
That must have something to do with vitality , Madara showing us this technique only 2 seconds after recovering "life".

Like Hashirama trees , like Juubi , like zetsu (plants) , Madara can absorb all type of chakra directly via any of his cells.
The mecanism of that absorption will teach us a lot of things over chakra and life , History.

That has already been considered and there are 2 other occasions where the Rinnegans absorption is used and we see no "bubble" effect. I dont know how this idea has taken off like this but it isnt correct, the bubble effect isnt used everytime the Rinnegan is used to absorb. Lastly and in all fairness Madara absorbing the Chakra is never depicted in the manga, all we see is Madara covered in Amaterasu, then Hashirama saying he absorbed the chakra, then Madara without Amaterasu on him.


One of which being when Madara absorbed Naruto's Rasenshuriken, the other being when Nagato absorbed Killer Bee's Tailed Beast Cloak.

Spoiler

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Secondly even if your assumption is correct you must then explain how Madara can use Susan'o without eyes? Or does Susan'o not require eyes now??? Oh what a wicked web we weave...

 

[osba]

not neccesary anymore.. pure kishi logic dictates madara can use ocular techniques like susanoó without his eyes.
RIP naruto.. for before you had to know the manga to see the flaws, now everyone can.