Hyuuga Hiashi vs Senju Tsunade

[miromiro]

Thanks for the opinion which validates nothing.
Maybe i shall add a poll.

An opinion isn't supposed to validate anything, my friend. It's just what it sounds, an opinion.

fodder post.

Quoted with another fodder post.

 

[paratise]

The gentle fist art is greatly inspired by Tai Chi, and if you know anything about Tai Chi, it's that it uses the opponenets force against them; so the stronger they are, the stronger the opponents attacks will be. It's all about redirecting the force of the oppenent back at them, and considering Tsunade's strength, that'd be a pretty hard attack

Well that's its real life purpose, NV works differently but reagrdless an elite Hyuga is able to fend off with Tsunade.

An opinion isn't supposed to validate anything, my friend. It's just what it sounds, an opinion.

Okay thanks and i respect it.

 

[Shura]

An opinion isn't supposed to validate anything, my friend. It's just what it sounds, an opinion.


Quoted with another fodder post.

fodder post

 

[miromiro]

fodder post

You just did it.

 

[Optimistic]

An opinion isn't supposed to validate anything, my friend. It's just what it sounds, an opinion.


Quoted with another fodder post.

Lol u say tsunade wins but can't counter any of my masters points.ur first post is fodder u replying won't change anything

 

[Shura]

mystodon solo dis thread

 

[miromiro]

Lol u say tsunade wins but can't counter any of my masters points.ur first post is fodder u replying won't change anything

Tsunade snatches this either way, I don't need to counter any points, it's just common sense. Besides, I don't even see the point to explain my option.

 

[Optimistic]

Tsunade snatches this either way, I don't need to counter any points, it's just common sense. Besides, I don't even see the point to explain my option.

i wouldn't want to see your explanation its probably horrible anyway.Lol

Common sense my back foot u say tsunade snatches this and stomps that and yet this whole thread says other wise.

 

[miromiro]

i wouldn't want to see your explanation its probably horrible anyway.Lol

Common sense my back foot u say tsunade snatches this and stomps that and yet this whole thread says other wise.

Do I look like I give a shit about what everyone else thinks? Tsunade is damn powerful, and I don't need to explain it to a damn fanboy anyway.

 

[Shura]

Do I look like I give a shit about what everyone else thinks? Tsunade is damn powerful, and I don't need to explain it to a damn fanboy anyway.

I can't believe you just bumped an old thread to reply to a guy who is banned. :|​

 

[paratise]

I can't believe you just bumped an old thread to reply to a guy who is banned. :|​

lel that's what i have thought.

 

[miromiro]

I can't believe you just bumped an old thread to reply to a guy who is banned. :|​

I don't leave someone have the last reply to an argument where I dominate. I don't care about bumps anyway. Also, he might not have been banned permanently, but just for a while. He might still see my post.

 

[Tazzilla88]

If kabuto (who openly admited not being strong at taijutsu)can find openings to cut tsunades bicep and abdomen muscles by tapping her with his hands, I think Hiashi a taijutsu specialist and a master of the leafs strongest taijutsu style can find openings to do the same or block chakra points in her body

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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According to her battle with kabuto back in part one, Tsunade is far from unbeatable in close combat.

If you wouldn't compare Part 2 Gai to part 1 Gai or part 2 Kakashi to part 1 Kakashi why would you compare part 2 Tsunade to part 1 Tsunade when it's fairly evident that her skill has increased since the last time we saw her fight in part 1.

Mkayyy...
Here is another explaination for gentle fist:

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^^That explaination and Hinata not being able to use gentle fist attacks no more suggests that gentle fist blocks chakra points and stops the overall flow. Gentle fist works when someone extracts chakra from their fingers and pinpoints the tenketsu and stops the flow. This takes someone's usage of chakra, the only way Naruto was able to open was he had Kurama, another entitiy inside him. It can't be compared to a seal.

I do not deny that gentle fist stops the usage of chakra, rather my point was that isn't what kills people, what kills them is the damage to internal organs. Something Tsunade has a means of fixing. Also a single hit doesn't completely negate a persons chakra flow, the way it works is by closing multiple tenketsu meaning one would have to stay in close range for a longer period of time than it would take to get a single or even a few shots off. The whole basis of the 64 palm technique is that at least 64 hits are necessary and we haven't successfully seen it done on a high level opponent perhaps because that would require they stand there and do nothing at all. Naruto was able to use Kurama's chakra not because Kurama was a separate entity but because Kurama's chakra wasn't in the same pool of chakra as Naruto's chakra. It was separated via a seal, and the only thing we can say is that an influx of chakra forced the tenketsu open. As previously stated Tsunade would have multiple ways to achieve such a strategy.

And i am mentioning this case before Byakugo gets activated. Tsunade only activated it against someone pracitcally a God; what suggests she is using the jutsu right of the bat?

Against Orochimaru her first strategy was Creation Rebirth, albeit she was already injured. Against Pein she had already used her seal. Against Madara when she joined the fight she used her seal. Though I will note this, I am not suggesting that Tsunade use Byakugou off the bat, I'm suggesting she use it in response to having her tenketsu closed.

And Katsuyu had been seen as healing while delivering Tsunade's or Sakura's chakra or healing prowess. I don't know if she can accomplish such by her own, even if she does Hiashi can see the flowing chakra between Tsunade and slug and flick it away with an airpalm.

Well the manga says she draws her power from the Seal and not the jutsu themselves. Further, you're suggesting Katsuyu is going to go where when she's likely to be in Tsunade's clothes. How exactly does Hiashi get to that particular mini and where is she going to go?

What i meant was when someone's healing ability is taken away, he/she can't perform the surgery and was also referring to Hinata's case mostly.

It was a really poor metaphor

I was referring to their overall orientation as fighters, but i can talk about long range abilities.
First off, the distance is about 10 meters, so getting close for Hiashi would not be difficult.
Second, Tsunade's long range attacks have never been used against an opponent, she always goes for direct hits.
Did she do that against Madara? Against Kabuto, she only kicked the ground for a case of intimidation other than that the fight was hand to hand. And Hiashi would not fell into the trick Naruto did. He is far more experienced, faster and

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Based on which of Hiashi's speed feats? That's about 30 feet which would give Tsunade ample time to do as she pleases, whether that's summoning, striking the ground, etc.
Against Madara there was the obvious danger of hurting her own teammates with such a large AoE. And Against Kabuto we're talking about a Tsunade who started with that strategy of using larger AoE attacks, to which her opponents responded by running away. Furthermore, it's fairly obvious the strength she has now> than the strength she had then thus her capabilities are different. Once her natural strength was hindered she really wasn't in the position to use large AoE attacks. Also I thought you didn't want to deal with scenario's but skillsets and that is without a doubt a part of Tsunade's skillset.
Naruto didn't fall into a trap he was countered. And Hiashi doesn't have a the means to escape Tsunade's AoE

Well guess what; weighted Lee is faster than Tsunade. If it can be proven othervies i am willing to see it.

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; which suggests his speed of moving arms was high.
And i have already stated it would be assumed that Hiashi is capable of what Neji can since he had been his superior.
Tsunade have always shown a linear fighting style, don't what these "different ones" are.
Also Hiashi has much more experienced than Lee and Neji if we are going to bring that into game as well.
To sum it up, credits to Bogard:

Different ones include using shockwaves, striking pressure points, and attacking with chakra scalpels.

Chill out my thread is not too rafinated with a nicely done lay-out.
It is not hard to handle with a joke-ish statement, i have never patronized or claimed superiority.

Because "punch the ground hurr" isn't meant to make Tsunade fans sound stupid? nor is Wanksuyu supposed to be a jab at Tsunade fans? Both of those implied superiority which lend more to the ad-hominem logical fallacy and can easily lead red herrings so I have no real intent to continue discussing that matter.

So Hiashi can't even avoid or react to such force, or accomplish to get close to Tsunade?

No. He can't.

It did not prevented Kabuto much to do so. And the diatance is 10 meters.

Irrelevant Part 1

It was against an unexpected attack by an opponent who got unexpectedly faster; and the rotation was not even full.

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; and as i said Neji's rotation against Naruto's clash was not complete.

Irrelevant if it was unexpected as you claim that rotation would have the force send all relevant attacks (to this debate) flying back. Two just as a matter of physics to redirect force in the way that Rotation does one would need to be able to handle enough of that force.In order to displace the force, the force must first be place upon the Rotation. But you've given no proof that rotation can withstand that much force without being destroyed. Take the example of a spinning ceiling fan, if you throw a small rubber ball at it, the fan will completely redirect all force of said ball, but if you throw a bag of bricks at the same fan.... it's going to break.

1st: That sword was something that is not applying force, it is physically stable and is not doing anything against Tsunade. Lifting it up can't be compared to Jubi's hand which is larger than it and applying its own force.

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You shouldn't forget gravitational force, which yes was acting upon the Juubi however, if the Juubi had simply let his arm fall the dead weight would have been traveling at 9.8 meters per second. This however, does not seem to be the case as the juubi's tail/ arm wasn't limp.My point being Tsunade didn't just knock it up in the air, know she jumped so high in the sky that she nor the sword could be seen then she as she came back down she was still able move the sword despite not having a surface to distribute her power across. Further, this was not just Hiashi's power but Neji's as well and given the Rotation seems to be the same size, he would be responsible for only about half of the force that was knocked away. Further, I'm not sure it what purpose you have for mentioning the flick. We can't really gauge the weight of it as it was pure chakra, and because it acts like a bomb it can create a greater damage area than say a cannon which relies on weight for it's destructive force. So are we to say that the Juubi flicking it away is an act of strength when we have no means of coming close to an idea of how much it weighed? We do know though that the Juubi hand is made of wood. And that wood is generally lighter than steel, we also know that Gamabunta's Tanto has such a weight that Bunta was able to slice through Shukaku's arm with it but not strong enough to hold on to the tanto. Yet, he was able to hold down the Kyuubi for a short period of time.

Rotation does not dig a hole to the ground, he deflects the damage.
The scenario had been created here is almost funny. He can focus chakra on his foot and jumpaway from the damaged area, if he ever finds himself in a crater.
If he ever finds himself in the air; he can still counter attack or perform airpalms. In this manga, people are have shown to jump tremendous hights and landing perfectly or

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Also Kisame distributed the whole battlezone by creating a massive shockwave by water; yet

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, heck Lee

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If Rotation doesn't dig a whole then Tsunade's strike to the ground sends Hiashi flying. That was my argument. It can be represented as:
H ∨ F
~H
∴ F
proven through the logical rule Disjunctive Syllogism. Where "H" stands for whole and "F" stands for Flying you added the proposition ~H or not hole therefore the logical conclusion is flying.
A popular argument I've seen before is that someone will withstand the damage via sticking to the ground with the usage of chakra.If he tries to keep through the force of Tsunade's punch then he is going to die. It is the force which kills, and incidently one takes less force by not being stuck to the ground as the force can be partially dispersed into the air. If he glue himself to the ground he has no choice but to take the brunt of the force which killed mini juubis and he's surely less durable than mini juubis. At the point that he tries to glue himself to ground the force is going to rip through his body possibly severing the rest of his body from his legs.
Jumping High and Falling from high are different things imagine jumping from a 5 foot platform and now imagine falling from it. If he is sent in the air he is not jumping is his falling. More than that, while he can use the air palm something I never dismissed he can't maneuver. That has not been shown in the manga. And to that extent he is vulnerable either to Tsunade or to Katsuyu.
Now Tsunade's punch operates as a few things when hit with it directly it acts like a missile in that it carries a lot of force (natural strength), but once contact is made some of the force a different force (the chakra) causes an explosion.; when she hits the ground the result is something between a landmine and an Earthquake. Significant portions of the Earth move and anything that is built upon that Earth is reduced to rubble, yet like a land mine a great amount of force is exhibited upwards and outwards. So the way Tsunade's punches can be Described are as M ∨ (L · E)
We can prove then that no Flood (FL) is like Earthquakes (E) or Landmines (L) and therefore none are like Tsunade's Punches (TP) in a few different ways. The first way we'd do so is through a sorites :
All FL are things that sweep away items
No L are things that sweep away items
All L are things that blast upwards and outwards
No FL are things that blast upwards or outwards
∴No FL are L
Given this sorites the conclusion is FL and L do fundamentally different things and thus are not materially equivalent.
All FL are things that sweep things away
No E are things that sweep things away
∴ No FL are E
All E are things that ripple from underneath the ground
No FL are things that ripple underneath the ground
∴ No FL are E
These two categorical syllogisms demonstrate that Floods do fundamentally different things than Earthquakes.
1. FL ⊃ ~(L·E)
2.TP ⊃ [M ∨ (L·E)]
3. L·E
∴ ~ FL Because of Modus Tollens
Given lines 1 and 2 of the above we can gather that if FL ⊃ ~TP so they are not materially equivalent
Now all of this is to say that what Kisame did was create a flood, which is not at all comparable to what Tsunade's punches do. While Tsunade's Punches are not Landmines or Earthquakes, per say, they do damage in the same way those two items L·E do damage thus, for the purpose of the point being made the statement holds. Also note this important distinction, Shinobi can stand on water, Shinobi can stand on an exploding land mine. A flood kills by asphyxiation, missiles, landmines do not kill through asphyxiation. Though, an Earthquake can kill through asphyxiation, it can also kill through raw power and by means of heavy items crushing living things. My point being, the situation involving Kisame has no relevance in comparison to Tsunade.

As i said; this is not a throughout establishment thread. i just showed why i think Hiashi has this match and has good counters.
This is what i have stated at the end of OP:

However, your thread was biased toward Hiashi but Fair Enough

What happens when Tsunade does not even summon the slug, she did not do that against Madara? Anyway i will go this scenario.

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This doesn't work as he's being assaulted from 360 degrees yet isn't defending all 360 degrees nor is he attacking the remaining degrees which leads to him being hit by the acid.

Rotation is a 360 degrees of defense; against Juubi; Neji can fend off very well but he have chooses to protect others, so in terms of self defense, it is enough for a single human.
He would use rotation/airpalms just to keep the slugs away; it is not like they are abnormally fast to reach him right away.
Also credits to Strict; Hiashi has enough endurance to contedn with continous attacks:

Well yes Rotation is 360 degrees, what's your point? What's your point regarding the juubi? He did a single average length Rotation. Why is Neji relevant here? My point is that Hiashi cannot continue Rotation indefinitely, and attempting to do so exhausts his chakra, and his air supply. Slugs reaching him wasn't the argument, slugs' acid reaching him was.
Now to speak to Strict's quote. As far as we can tell that barrage of needles lasted only a few seconds. Unless you believe that Hiashi can exert himself physically for an extended period of time without the need to breathe. As I'm sure you would argue a poisonous gas wouldn't entire Rotation then Oxygen wouldn't either. Thus, he'd be rotating using more oxygen than normal with a limited oxygen supply. Further, we've never seen Hiashi in extended battle without access to medics who can simply give him more chakra. Nextly, Strict has a habit of misunderstanding the limits of Tsunade's abilities. The acid rainfall strategy was not a strategy that the quote was intended to address, as such a strategy could last longer than rotation.

He can use fullbody blow to deflect surrounding liquids. After that; an airpalm aimed to the ground would keep him away from the liquified slug.

Full body blow only targets one side of the body, not the entire body itself. So while he may clear the back area there would still be the front, and sides exposed. And for how long can he keep himself up in the air, as the nature of a liquid is to fill a space unless obstructed by something, and as the air palm is no longer there, liquefied Katsuyu would only comeback to fill the space. Rotation too, would be a temporary solution. And if his strategy is air palming continuously to make sure he didn't hit the ground, he'd be left wide open from an attack from Tsunade.

If Tsunade is able send deadly chakra through Katsuyu, Hiashi can very well use this strategy against her.
Now; we all know that byakugan has insight ability and

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And

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Hiashi can send his own chakra with

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[

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] method through the slug and distribute the flow; since it is stated that Tsunade sends her chakra via slug.

.... Um a few things Katsuyu isn't just a chakra construct like the arrow that pierced Neji and the Tube it was attached to is. Further, a far more complex linking is between Tsunade and Katsuyu than a tube, and Hiashi may not be able to send chakra through such a complex link non physical link. Also Katsuyu herself is a being and could just redirect that chakra at Hiashi, if she can use Tsunade's chakra to heal Tsunade. Furthermore, the tube only worked because it was a hollow link. A shinobi can use the chakra of a medic, but that doesn't mean that the tarnishing the chakra of a medic will hurt that shinobi so much as it means the medic needs to recover. This strategy fails to work for several reasons.

Damn that was long.
I think you are fixating too much of scenarios here, the distance is a mere 10 meters and i can fend off much more, my thread was overall ability vs ability and how would it go.
In this scenarios, Katsuyu divides, surrounds, Tsunade keeps punches but Hiashi miraclously does nothing until these happen...Anyway i think we will be in the end agree to disagree.

No, the way to establish whose better is a list of overall skills to which Tsunade wins. If we start talking about them fighting one another it is dependent entirely on scenarios. The ten meter distance was meant to give Hiashi an advantage.

The gentle fist art is greatly inspired by Tai Chi, and if you know anything about Tai Chi, it's that it uses the opponenets force against them; so the stronger they are, the stronger the opponents attacks will be. It's all about redirecting the force of the oppenent back at them, and considering Tsunade's strength, that'd be a pretty hard attack

It seems that gentle fist was inspired by Ba Gua Zhang more than Tai Chi.

 

[Touken]

Do people know that shinobi only bring out summons when they're fighting enormous opponents?

Tsunade isn't bringing out Katsuyu in this battle. She has absolutely no reason to.

 

[TheEvilOne]

Do people know that shinobi only bring out summons when they're fighting enormous opponents?

Tsunade isn't bringing out Katsuyu in this battle. She has absolutely no reason to.

*cough*
Danzo vs Sasuke
*cough*

Also 90% of the characters in Naruto have no boss summons, so that's irrelevant.

 

[Touken]

*cough*
Danzo vs Sasuke
*cough*

Also 90% of the characters in Naruto have no boss summons, so that's irrelevant.

Yeah, he had to do that because he was gonna fall face first into the goddamn water.

 

[paratise]

@Tazzila i Will counter you but not soon enough my midterms are coming & i won't have enough for long posts in close future.

 

[Tazzilla88]

@Tazzila i Will counter you but not soon enough my midterms are coming & i won't have enough for long posts in close future.

Take your time, school comes first.

 

[Strict]

1. FL ⊃ ~(L·E)
2.TP ⊃ [M ∨ (L·E)]
3. L·E

That doesn't belong under the category Manga..

 

[Turson]

Yeah, he had to do that because he was gonna fall face first into the goddamn water.

Thats the pont though. She would summon Katsuyu if she thought that its necessary. She wouldnt think "Nah, Hiashi is too small, I rather do die".