[Discussion] Why Zoro is not Weaker than Luffy
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"Captain is the strongest"- This logic (well it's no logic) is absolutety flawed and brought up in a zoro vs luffy discussion when one can't think of a logical argument. Counter by some logical stuff and I'd be happy to talk about it.
Like I said in my OP, Roger was the pirate King, did that mean that he was the strongest pirate? No. There were two men equivalent to Roger. So the rank doesn't prove anything.
And Zoro did stated that he won't follow a weak man,, and Luffy is not a weak man. But he didn't said that he won't follow someone who is weaker than him. That is, he never called Luffy stronger than himself, as you can see in the video above or in the following scan.
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He never called himself weaker than Luffy. Don't make things out of the manga.
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you can list what happened in the manga all you want you're not gonna change anything, the general consensus is, and always has been, Luffy>Zoro>Sanji and that's probably how it is since for a manga it would be the most logical choice (captain>first mate>the 3rd strong character) ... Luffy is the main character and he always gets the main villain ... in a manga that matters because fiction is by definition NOT random
You can say things like this, but it only proves that you neglecting my points or can't answer or something...
You said about your point that its the general consensus for a manga but,, what I said is also taken from the One Piece manga. I didn't make up af the manga any of this. Luffy doesn't become any stronger than zoro if the manga disagrees,then it doesn't matter even if you think he is. You put an invalid argument M.
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That wasn't the case until Luffy could gears though. I think with Rayleigh leaving Luffy as early as he did and Mihawk being the most suited teacher in his fighting style made him catch up to Luffy.
I missed your post earlier. But did you just said that databooks aren't written by Oda? Seriously?
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Read the damn first line.It's the rumors and myths from where thing like bon chan being dead or fake bounties come from.
Also you might wanna do something about the way you talk.
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Feats, portrayal, statements. Back at Whiskey Peak (when they got oneshotted by Nami) they were closer in strength. Enies Lobby made it clear that Luffy is not on the same level as Zoro and from then on he never will.
Luffy beat Lucci who's Douriki is 4000
Zoro barely beat Kaku who's Douriki was only 2200
That alone should be enough. Luffy has always been portrayed as the strongest in the crew. In a fight Luffy is a bad match up to Zoro (some might say that Zoro is a bad match up to Luffy but it's actually the other way around). Luffy's CoO is formidable. The more killing intent your enemy has the easier it is to predict their movement. Now add that to Luffy's superior speed and destructiveness.
Zoro is comparable to Sanji but Luffy is not next to them anymore.
What feats put Zoro above Luffy? As far as i'm concerned the only debatable thing here is their durability. Luffy pretty much outclasses Zoro in every other category.
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Did you even read the thread?
These events are important, I know it and so I have already answered all these things that you are mentioning now in the OP, and some extra pieces about Enies Lobby are in the thread too. About the speed and striking power too.
I am not going to repeat all that. I you have anything you disagree in them, then post that.
What implies that Zoro could beat Arlong? If Luffy was in that state he probably couldn't be able to beat Arlong but there's nothing there that implies Zoro's superiority considering that Zoro didn't beat Arlong.
This was Pre-Enies Lobby not to mention the desert fight was for comic relief and the fight in the town ended up with Nami oneshotting both. Doesn't really support that Zoro is equal to Luffy. Shanks and WB clashed, Mihawk and Vista clashed. Doesn't make Shanks=WB or that Mihawk=Vista.
This doesn't prove much. Sanji could've beaten Enel if he could touch him. The only thing Enel had going on for him was intangibility. He lost to pre-gears Luffy.
The fact that Kaku is a swordsman doesn't mean that he isn't physically strong. He trains his physical strength. When they left for the secret mission Kaku's Doriki was lower than Jyabura's but afterwards it was higher. Which means that Kaku does indeed train. Not to mention Kaku knows Rokushiki and received the same Rokushiki training as Lucci which requires immense physical strength. 20 Douriki isn't much. Lucci's was 4000 and Kaku's 2200.
How was Zoro supposed to fight Lucci? Zoro honestly stands no chance against Lucci. Zoro's speed and Durability were definately not enough to handle Lucci. Luffy has a rubber body which helps him tank blunt attacks. Zoro would've went down from those Rokyougans (he would've lost before Lucci could use them). Kaku and Jabra were rivals. Lucci was clearly miles above the duo.
Luffy went unconsious only because he thought the danger was over. He wasn't trying to remain consiousness anymore. Are you implying that Zoro wasn't trying to remain his consiousness? Luffy busted through Impel down, took Magellan's poison, Ivankov's treatment (twice), was imprisoned in the weird snow jail thing (don't remember the name) and fought in the war. Luffy's also a tank. Zoro's Durability is really the only category where he can be compared to Luffy.
What's there to say that he wouldn't have received the same exact treatment?
Your comparing a casual G2 Jet pistol (blunt force) to Zoro's Rengoku Oni Giri (Sword attack). Luffy oneshotted E.G Hody with Red Hawk.
This fight had nothing to do with Luffy's strength and shouldn't even be used as an argument considering that both can casually oneshot Monet.
That was made in 2007. Not to mention saying that they havet the same fighting power isn't saying that Zoro=Luffy. That statement roughly means that they were on the same level (back in 2007). The admirals have the same fighting power yet Akainu beat Kuzan.
Speed
Physical strength
Durability (debatable)
Stamina
Destructive Capacity
Luffy outclasses Zoro in all of those categories.
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Zoro being equal to Luffy implies that he could've beat Arlong if he wasn't wounded. But that's not the thing explained in that point. I wrote that to tell that if Luffy was wounded like Zoro, he would've easily lost too. So, the argument that Zoro couldn't keep up with Arlong and Luffy did, so Luffy is stronger than Zoro is Wrong.
I already explained to Chiharu why that fight was a serious fight. Zoro acted like that and even put on his bandana before fighting which he only does in real fight, all because Luffy was serious too. About Mihawk clashing with Vista, read it in the manga(not anime, they extend things) and you will see Mihawk wasn't even paying attention to the fight, so you can't conclude Vista's strength from that. Moreover, you are underestimating Vista to some extent. About old WB and Shanks colliding,, they are equal in power IMO, but we still don't know the extent of Shanks' strength to backup this statement, which is not the case in a Zoro and Luffy comparison. WB was called the strongest after Roger as his rival died. Anyways, the result or comparison from their fight really doesn't matter here as in this case, we didn't get a statement or something that says Luffy is stronger than Zoro or viceversa.
He lost to pre-gear Luffy and what about it? Sanji could've beaten Enel too and what about it? How does these lines prove Luffy anyhow stronger than Zoro.
Again, my real intention to write that point was the same as point no.1 about Arlong Park, i.e, Luffy beating Enel because of being his weakness doesn't put him above Zoro in anyway. You didn't understand what exactly did I said there.
I must say,, What are you reading,?? I said that Kaku had the advantage of being a swordsman too, but that thing isn't counted while measuring doriki. So their power levels aren't in the raio of 100 and 55. Swordsmanship was a major asset in case of Kaku. This thing already says that Zoro defeated an opponent near Lucci's level and was able to keep on fighting with the marines even after defeating Kaku,, plus take in consideration the fact that Luffy couldn't even move after his fight with Lucci. It's clear after all this, that defeating Lucci doesn't prove that he was stronger than Zoro even back then. If Lucci was pit against Zoro, only the level of diffivulty would've increased for Zoro.
Zoro had no problem keeping up with the swordsmanship of a soru user. That clearly means that his swordsmansip would've been able to keep up with a raw fighter like Lucci. Durability wise, you say Luffy's rubber body helped him tank Lucci's attacks? This is the same rubber body which got unconcious in Thriller bark from excessive stress, While Zoro's 'No-rubber-body' endured all that aside from his own too. It only proves that Zoro can tank Lucci's attacks better than Luffy. Kaku is easily above Jyabura by quite a distance because he has an additional, really powerful skill.
L.OL. Lucci nearly went in a coma when Luffy punch him with gear 3rd. And Zoro turned an attack of the caliber of gear 3rd into dust(In Enies Lobby of Kaku as I havce already explained). Zoro's Asura would've easily sliced through Lucci ending the fight.
Luffy clearly got unconcious from the pain. He wan lying unconcious on the ground even before he got his shadow back from Moria. He gave a powerful punch and that was it for him, the stress made him loss conciousness. While Zoro besides All his own pain, due to which he was already near death, took in Luffy's pain and remained concious, more importantly survived. Now listen, This is a feat by which we get a Clear Comparison between the durability of both and it's not comparable, Zoro owns Luffy in this department.
Now some other durability feats of Luffy you gave such Luffy busting through ID, Taking Magellan's poison, Ivankov's treatment 2x, fighting in war etc , Doesn't imply that his durability is in any way above Zoro. Why? Because We never get to saw Zoro going through all of this,, But.. We already got a solid comparison between Luffy's and Zoro's durability back in Thriller Bark. And using those events as a template, it's clear that if Zoro were went through all of these events, he would've done considerably endured all this better than Luffy.
Zoro would've ended up with the same treatment, but even Kizaru said to Zoro that "You must have been tired", seeing as how he was K'O without resistance. This implies that Zoro would've performed better in those conditions as well just like Luffy, if his wounds hadn't opened.
You are right about compring that punch to Onigiri, I take it, but it's main purpose was again to analyze Luffy. It's just like, he failed to hurt Hody and had problem with it even when he was hitting him Hard with Haki punches and Kicks, while Zoro even when playing with Hyouzou never had the slightest bit of problem. About Luffy giving Hody a Red Hawk but why are you saying that he One Shot him? Hody wasn't defeated after that, he had enough energy to get up again and eat some pills for a last power up. While Zoro one shotted Hyouzou. Period.
When things go bad for you, you say that why did I put this argument? lol
Nothing to backup your claim about stats. Sorry but this is not an argument. About that 2007 part too.
And when was it stated that the three admirals have the same fighting power?. Show me where was it stated.?
It wasn't stated anywhere! Only thing stated is that the admirals are World Government's "Greatest Fighting Force". Nothing more.
Lastly,, That point from databook still holds true.
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zoro even stated if it wasnt for conquerors haki then luffy needs to step down as captain. meaning thats the only thing luffy has against zoro other than that they are equal in strength. but id still go with zoro cuz...sword+haki is the way to go much like shanks rayleigh mihawk etc. i mean rubber punch+ haki = meh... ok.
zoro wouldve destroyed ceaser with a single slash... luffy just struggled
zoro: hey luffy, stop playin around, this is the new world.... im stronger than you brah
zoro wouldve destroyed ceaser with a single slash... luffy just struggled
zoro: hey luffy, stop playin around, this is the new world.... im stronger than you brah
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Listen man, even though you are supporting Zoro, there's some misconception there.
Zoro commented that they'd need to find another captain if Luffy couldn't even do that. But this does not mean that the only additional thing Luffy has against Zoro is conqueror's Haki. Both being equal in strength means that Luffy with his conqueror's Haki is equal to Zoro(who specializes in Arnament Haki). :yeah:
KingHashirama
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No one was equivalent to Roger..... Where does it say WB was the strongest. And no it is not flawed.. it is a god damn manga fact unless you have the proof of proven it wrong. That is how the crews are set up. Pirate life is all about strength. The Captain has to have the power to keep the crew in check.
Pirate King > World's greatest Swordsman:
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Since the start, Zoro has been protrayed as the weaker one.
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You are simply denying the "captain is the strongest in the crew" because it does not go with your opinion of Zoro being the strongest.
First I never said that WB was the strongest, I only said that Roger wasn't the strongest, because he wasn't alone with that level of strength.
Then take a look at this and stop the general flawed arguments.
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Now.. Is it stated somewhere that Captain has to be the strongest in the crew? No.
Is it stated somewhere that in strength PK>WSS? No (B4 anybody, Mihawk said that the path to PK is more hard... more things to deal with etc etc)
And well You are the one who is making your own rules for the sake of your opinion, Not Me. U_U
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KingHashirama
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1 vs 1 fight? Crew vs Crew fight? What fight?? Notice how he says "Currently he is the strongest pirate".. meaning during Roger's time WB wasn't the strongest pirate.
But again how is my argument of Captain being the strongest stopped that scan??
Do you not have the analytical skills to evaluate and analyze that captain is the strongest in the crew, or must Oda write everything down for you?
"where is it stated".. did you seriously even bother to look at the Scan i posted, when World's strongest swordsmen was compared to the P.K by Luffy? no.
Sadly, i'm only following Manga logic and facts that are shown. Sorry i'm not the one who needs the author to tell them something you should understand with some common sense.
Again when did I said that WB was the strongest? He tied with Roger when Roger was alive, WHICH means that Roger wasn't the strongest back then,, because he couldn't defeat WB and vice versa. He said that he currently he is the strongest because now his rival, Roger, was dead!
It means that the basis you are using for your arguments which are based upon general ideas like, 'he is stronger than him because his rank is better than him' are wrong. Up and above.
My analytical skills to tell if the captain is strongest or not?? Dude I put up a whole argument of Zoro being equal to his captain which you can't counter. I'm satisfied with my analytical skills. Until you prove it wrong, there'll be no weight in your words. Funny as how Oda himself wrote down about luffy being equal to zoro but you still deny the things which he did write.
L.ol, do you think Luffy saying something means anything when he himself is proven equal to Zoro. Even the author clearly said that, besides this thing here only shows that Luffy want someone at the top in his crew (when he'll be PK) else he'll be disappointed because it wouldn't fit with the theme of PK which is considered higher than WSS as far as title goes.
Again, you are not following manga logic. I put up the real thing in front of you here. The manga logic which you think is always applicable is not correct in that aspect, if it was right, I should have never been able to make this comparison and proof. I wrote my points since Oda himself made the manga that way so that we can conclude that Zoro is Luffy.
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Your point was that Luffy would've lost too if he was wounded. How does that prove that Zoro is equal to Luffy? it really doesn't. All it means is that a wounded Zoro got stomped by Arlong and so would a wounded Luffy. There's nothing implying that if Zoro wasn't wounded he would've beaten Arlong. That fight was Pre-gears anyways.
I was talking about the fight in the desert. That was for comic relief only. The fight in Whiskey Peak isn't proving that Zoro=Luffy. That fight was interrupted by Nami.
That was an example i used. Two people clashing doesn't mean they're equal.
That's a baseless opinion. The fact that WB was the strongest man in the world is enough to put him above Shanks. We know Luffy is always fighting the strongest opponent and we've seen what he's capable of. Luffy's feats heavily outclass Zoro's. Luffy's feats>Zoro's feats.
The fact that WB was known as the strongest after Roger died doesn't support Shanks being stronger than WB. It only proves that WB and Roger were indeed equal.
I understood exactly what you meant. You're saying that Zoro could beat Enel if he had Haki. So? Sanji could've beaten him too You're trying to prove that Zoro>Enel. The M3 are all>Enel that doesn't mean that Zoro is equal to Luffy.
Lol what? The Douriki measures your Physical strength swordsmanship isn't an advantage. We found out that Kaku was a swordsman when he fought Zoro. Before that he was using Rokushiki. Kaku uses attacks that require physical strength like Bigan, Soru etc. Kaku was nowhere near Lucci's level. Kaku's Doriki 2200 is exactly how strong he is. Swords or not Doriki measures someones physical strength.
Lol the fact that Luffy has a rubber body only eased the pain that Zoro took. He felt everything Luffy felt. I'm not saying that Luffy is more durable than Zoro. Zoro would've dropped from those Rokyougan's/Lucci's attacks since he doesn't have a rubber body. Your assumption of Kaku being easily above Jabra is baseless. Considering that even Oda himself portrayed them as rivals and gave Kaku a Doriki which is barely any higher than Jabra's. The whole point was to show that Kaku (Zoro) is next to Jabra (Sanji) whereas Lucci (Luffy) is on a whole nother level. Otherwise he would've given Kaku a higher Doriki or Lucci a lower one. Please show me this attack of G3's caliber being turned into dust. Also, you're saying that because Zoro was struggling to keep up with a weaker Rokushiki user with only 2200 Doriki he can somehow keep up with a better Rokushiki user with 4000 Doriki. Makes no sense at all. Especially since the gap is that huge.
Again. I'm not saying that Luffy is more durable than Zoro. Luffy outclasses Zoro in every other department so this really doesn't matter. But just for the hell of it... Luffy went unconsiouss only after he beat Moriah. He didn't get knocked unconsiouss. Which means that even while fighting Moriah he was trying to remain his conciousness and stopped doing it after the danger was over whereas Zoro was trying to stay concious when he took in Luffy's pain. Luffy falling asleep/losing conciousness after beating the main villain of the arc is a custom. He's doing it all the time.
Lol what are you talking about? Kizaru saying to Zoro that he must be tired doesn't in no way imply that Zoro would've done better than Luffy. This only implies that if Zoro would've been in perfect condition he would've been able to run or not go down so easily. That's like me saying that if Luffy was in the same condition as Zoro he would've done better than Zoro did. Exactly, a baseless assumption.
Your saying that a casually done punch should oneshot Hyouzou. Zoro's Oni giri wasn't casual not to mention it was Rengoku Oni Giri. Gatling gun, Bazooka etc... Could easily oneshot Hyouzou. Btw... Hody didn't get up after Red Hawk. He stayed down and coughed out all the E.G's that he took. He didn't eat them.
Comparing Monet vs Luffy to Zoro vs Monet is the same thing as if i compared Law vs Yeti brothers to Zoro vs Yeti brothers. Zoro got easily dealt with whereas Law stomped both. Both of these fights had nothing to do with the character's strength. Luffy and Zoro both got outsmarted not overpowered.
It wasn't from a scan. The admirals HAVE the same fighting power. Fact. The fact that Akainu managed to extreme-diff Aokiji proves that they're both on the same level. Let's assume Zoro and Luffy do have the same fighting power. Does this mean that if they were fighting it would end in a tie? No. It only means that one would be able to extreme-diff the other. A scan from 2007 holds no truth when it's 2013 and the characters have gone through major upgrades.
Physical strength: Luffy is stuck between two buildings and pushes a whole city-block apart while in a position where he can't even spread his arms.
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Luffy while in his deathbed lifting a huge rock and tossing it over a 100 meters this feat was calculated and it put Luffy's strength at millions of tons. Look at the size of that rock and how high Luffy tossed it.
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Luffy running around with a 700 ton golden ball attached to his arm. Calculated and accepted. There are too many scans of him running around with it so i just posted this.
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Zoro's little building tossing feat is nothing compared to what Luffy has done.
Speed:
Base Luffy while lowballing casually dodged a liquid explosion from point blank. This feat put him at Massively Hypersonic (faster than Mach 100). This feat is currently the best speed feat seen from the staw hats. Also taking into account that he didn't even need G2 to pull it off and he was lowballing.
DC:
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Nuff said.
Stamina: busted through ID, survived Magellan's poison and was still able to move around. Survived Ivankov's treatment twice, got shitstomped by the admirals, vice-admirals and strong individuals in the war yet he was still able to keep on fighting.
Durability: Zoro's durability is slightly superior
CoA: Luffy fully coating his G3 arm with Haki while underwater and weakened.
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CoC: Knocked out 50,000 fishmen.
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CoO: Casually dancing through Hody's Yabusame.
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Feel free to show me Zoro's feats that are better than Luffy's. All you've been doing is assuming and claiming this and that. Give me feats.
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