[Theory] How the Ōtsutsuki Tribe Became The Uzumaki Clan

[Mr Hiru]

If you don't believe me then look at the raw:

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What word did Zetsu say? it's 血縁 or Ketsuen which means Blood Relationship, so in context of Zetsu's use of the word Lineage in the english translation it simply means Nagato is a blood relative of the Senju, not a descendant, and especially not referring to his clan as descendants.

Ketsuen - Blood Relationship - Lineage.

You cannot argue that the Uzumakis descended from the Younger Son, the Uzumakis are distant blood relative of the Senju, not descendants of the Senju Ancestor.

You said that the creation of both Elder and Younger son was mystical (yin and yang), so Senju don't share traits with the Uchiha. This also means Uzumaki doesn't share traits with the Uchiha.

PS: I remember that Hashirama and Mito got married, so all Uzumaki are naturally related to the Senju by consanguinity (marriage). That only means Senju and Uzumaki shares a common ancestor (at least the new generations of Uzumaki, for instance, Tsunade).

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

You said that the creation of both Elder and Younger son was mystical (yin and yang), so Senju don't share traits with the Uchiha. This also means Uzumaki doesn't share traits with the Uchiha.

PS: I remember that Hashirama and Mito got married, so all Uzumaki are naturally related to the Senju by consanguinity (marriage). That only means Senju and Uzumaki shares a common ancestor (at least the new generations of Uzumaki, for instance, Tsunade).

Affinity is a relationship by marriage, Consanguinity is a relationship by blood.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Affinity is a relationship by marriage, Consanguinity is a relationship by blood.

Exactly, and your source treats them as synonym. So?

Well, treating all of this as consanguinity, we only know both Senju and Uzumaki shares the same ancestor.

So your theory is plausible, as I stated earlier.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Exactly, and your source treats them as synonym. So?

So by your logic then:

I remember that Hashirama and Mito got married, so all Uzumaki are naturally related to the Senju by consanguinity (marriage). That only means Senju and Uzumaki shares a common ancestor

The Uzumaki Clan Leader and all generations that preceded Mito would suddenly share the same common ancestor since Mito married Hashirama?

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Well, treating all of this as consanguinity, we only know both Senju and Uzumaki shares the same ancestor.

No, because it was clearly specified that the descendants of the Younger Son were the Senjus only, not Senju and Uzumaki:

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[Mr Hiru]

So by your logic then:



The Uzumaki Clan Leader and all generations that preceded Mito would suddenly share the same common ancestor since Mito married Hashirama?

I never knew your ancestors blood magically changes because one of your descendants marry into another blood. Lol

You're clever, and it's not trivial: it doesn't sound good. The same reason, I can't relate the Uzumaki to the Uchiha only due knowledge. I can't expect the Uzumaki would suddenly share the same common direct ancestor with the Uchiha, when the Younger Son was born under mystical circumstances (Senju and Uchiha do not have consanguinity, they don't share blood, they only have a mystical father).

 

[Mr Hiru]

No, because it was clearly specified that the descendants of the Younger Son were the Senjus only, not Senju and Uzumaki:

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There it says the Younger Son's descendants were the Senju. There is not said "they only descendants were the Senju".

Furthermore, there is also the possibility that the Uzumaki is a branch from the Senju... why not?

Or as you say, the Senju could be a branch of Hagoromo (assuming he is an Uzumaki).

In any case, the common ancestor relationship is met.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I didn't say Senju and Uzumaki were brothers.

If they are not sibling clans they are not an off-shoot clan either, because either way if both were the case then both the Uzumakis and Senjus would be descendants of their apical ancestor: The Younger Son, the problem is, this is not the case. The Senjus were the only ones to have been said by the Manga to have descended from the Younger Son.

 

[Transcendence]

You're clever, and it's not trivial: it doesn't sound good. The same reason, I can't relate the Uzumaki to the Uchiha only due knowledge. I can't expect the Uzumaki would suddenly share the same common direct ancestor with the Uchiha, when the Younger Son was born under mystical circumstances (Senju and Uchiha do not have consanguinity, they don't share blood, they only have a mystical father).

I agree with what you said, but the "mythical circumstances" portion, which is the most probable course of action with this; they probably do share some kind of similarities because the main source of chakra that Rikudou would use to create them, would be from the Juubi, so they inherently share traits from the Juubi. Other than that, carry on.

 

[Mr Hiru]

If they are not sibling clans they are not an off-shoot clan either, because either way if both were the case then both the Uzumakis and Senjus would be descendants of their apical ancestor: The Younger Son, the problem is, this is not the case. The Senjus were the only ones to have been said by the Manga to have descended from the Younger Son.

Quite. But taking that in mind... how do you explain that the bloodline thinned?

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Quite. But taking that in mind... how do you explain that the bloodline thinned?

It was referring to dilution of the bloodline because of succeeding generations.

 

[Mr Hiru]

It was referring to dilution of the bloodline because of succeeding generations.

I agree. That's what bought me the possibility of the Senju having a secondary branch. They couldn't be making pseudo-incest forever to mantain the bloodline, so for instance they could be creating a secondary branch who turned into the Uzumaki, and after some time these branch became distant relatives (common ancestor: Younger Son). Both main and secondary branch still mantain too much bloodline characteristics, for instance, lifeforce, or physical energy, or strength, all of them Yang attributes.

Of course, this is an example. Your theory could apply as well.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I agree. That's what bought me the possibility of the Senju having a secondary branch. They couldn't be making pseudo-incest forever to mantain the bloodline, so for instance they could be creating a secondary branch who turned into the Uzumaki, and after some time these branch became distant relatives (common ancestor: Younger Son). Both main and secondary branch still mantain too much bloodline characteristics, for instance, lifeforce, or physical energy, or strength, all of them Yang attributes.

Of course, this is an example. Your theory could apply as well.

If the Uzumakis was a secondary branch aka off-shoot of the Senjus then it will still be the same, they would still be descendants of the Younger Son, which as clearly stated in the Manga, they weren't, since the Senjus were the only ones stated to have descended from him (Younger Son) and a clan cannot be a distant blood relative of a sibling clan or a descendant clan, they would be close blood relatives for sharing the same apical ancestor if that was the case.

The only way for the Uzumakis to be distantly blood related to the Senjus is for them to be a distant cousin clan with them, meaning they do not share the same ancestor as the Younger Son.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

So how did the Uzumakis become distant blood relatives? simple, the ancestors of the Uzumaki Clan are the Ōtsutsuki kinsmen of Hagoromo, the Uzumakis did not descend from Rikudou Sennin or his children's line but from his Ōtsutsuki relatives. The surname changed, the bloodline remains one and the same, Ōtsutsuki= Uzumaki.

Ōtsutsuki can also be written as Ōzuzuki, since Tsu with Dakuten is Zu, the Ō became U and the second Zu became Ma = Uzumaki.

 

[Mr Hiru]

If the Uzumakis was a secondary branch aka off-shoot of the Senjus then it will still be the same, they would still be descendants of the Younger Son, which as clearly stated in the Manga, they weren't, since the Senjus were the only ones stated to have descended from him (Younger Son) and a clan cannot be a distant blood relative of a sibling clan or a descendant clan, they would be close blood relatives for sharing the same apical ancestor.

The only way for the Uzumakis to be distantly blood related to the Senjus is for them to be a distant cousin clan with them, meaning they do not share the same ancestor as the Younger Son.

If so, then...

If the Uzumaki were a branch of the Senju, they are not distant relatives one of each other, and so they are descendants of the Younger son (you're instancing this is a contradiction to the manga. OK [I don't particulary agree since the manga hasn't proven the contrary, but this is a taste of argumenting that I'll pass]).

If the Senju were a branch of Hagoromo, whose brothers/sisters became the Uzumaki (this is your theory, if I'm interpreting it well), they can't be distant relatives either. It's not because the kinship of Hagoromo became the Uzumaki, it's because Hagoromo forms part of that kinship as well! It would mean the Senju are close relatives to the Uzumaki because their apical ancestor is the same one: Kaguya Ootsutsuki, and the direct ancestor of the Younger Son forms part of the kinship who formed the Uzumaki.

Am I wrong?

(I really need a definition for the word 'distant'. It is (not a joke) 'relative'). :S

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

If so, then...

If the Uzumaki were a branch of the Senju, they are not distant relatives one of each other, and so they are descendants of the Younger son (you're instancing this is a contradiction to the manga. OK [I don't particulary agree since the manga hasn't proven the contrary, but this is a taste of argumenting that I'll pass]).

If the Senju were a branch of Hagoromo, whose brothers/sisters became the Uzumaki (this is your theory, if I'm interpreting it well), they can't be distant relatives either. It's not because the kinship of Hagoromo became the Uzumaki, it's because Hagoromo forms part of that kinship as well! It would mean the Senju are close relatives to the Uzumaki because their apical ancestor is the same one: Kaguya Ootsutsuki.

Am I wrong?

You are incorrect, because the Ōtsutsuki line did not start from Kaguya, there were many Ōtsutsukis prior to her with different coefficient of blood relationship, Kaguya's cousin, or her cousin twice removed and so forth.

 

[Mr Hiru]

You are incorrect, because the Ōtsutsuki line did not start from Kaguya, there were many Ōtsutsukis prior to her with different coefficient of blood relationship, Kaguya's cousin, or her cousin twice removed and so forth.

No, I'm talking about the first humans who wielded and used chakra. You can discard the other members. The first one was Kaguya.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

No, I'm talking about the first humans who wielded and used chakra. You can discard the other members. The first one was Kaguya.

Simply because Kaguya or Hagoromo shared Chakra with their kinsmen and other people not of their blood it does not mean they automatically became the blood ancestor of everyone, it would be like saying that Naruto or Kurama himself is now the blood ancestor of the Shinobi Alliance for Sharing Kurama's Chakra with them.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Simply because Kaguya or Hagoromo shared Chakra with their kinsmen and other people not of their blood it does not mean they automatically became the blood ancestor of everyone, it would be like saying that Naruto or Kurama himself is now the blood ancestor of the Shinobi Alliance for Sharing Kurama's Chakra with them.

Well, in this thread I didn't say Hagoromo was the ancestor of every shinobi, so let's pass that.

The first human who really inherited shinobi traits (metamorphically talking since shinobi didn't exist in this time) was Hagoromo himself, this trait was called Chakra.

You say he shared chakra with others by mystical means as well, perfectly understandeable, just like the birth of his two sons (not proof of this, but even I think it is too obvious).

I say, if he had brothers, Hagoromo didn't share chakra with them, because he didn't need to do that... his mother did the job (why do you assume Hagoromo got all the power of the fruit? That was not stated). Else case, if he had big brothers/sisters or cousins or other family, he could share chakra by mystical means, that's all right too.

But my point is other... you said his kinship became the Uzumaki. And that makes him part of this family. I didn't talk about him creating the Uzumaki, I'm talking about him as member of the former Uzumaki.

If he is the source of chakra on these people, almost every existing clan is mystical relative to the Senju / Uchiha.

...ending my argument, I'll state something simple enough: I accept that the Younger Son didn't have other descendants but the Senju (something that has not been stated), only if I accept that there is no ties between the Uzumaki and the Uchiha (because, it is not been stated as well).

 

[Raekwon26]

I have already answered that the powers of the Uchiha and Senju directly come from the Juubi, the Sharingan is from the Eye of the Juubi while Mokuton is the body of the Juubi, if the Uzumakis do not have Mokuton nor Sharingan of the Senjus and Uchihas it is only because they are not descendants of Hagoromo himself or his two children.

See, this is what i'm talking about. Going around in circles.
Uzumaki and Senju share a similar trait; Their strong Life Force.
If the Sage is an Uzumaki, he would also share a trait with his other son, The Uchiha Clan.

I'm not talking about their Doujutsu or Mokuton, they come from the Juubi, I know.
BUT,
What trait do the Uzumaki and Uchiha clan share?
How can he only share ONE trait with ONE son? It makes no sense.