Even if Madara used Genjutsu on Hashirama, Hashirama > Madara
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Huh ? What kind of nonsense did you just said ? If people assume Madara was doing 2v1 with Kurama against Hashirama, then it is 2v1 in any Jinchuuriki fight, for example without Kurama, Naruto can't do siht, but Kurama is HIS power even though every Jinchuuriki got it as a "gift" you can say, but in Madaras case it's his SKILL of Sharingan that let's him control Kurama, as for Jinchuurikis SEAL let's them control it, afterwards going through all the process to unlock full power of Bijuu and blah blah..
But remember it also takes Chakra and as I said skill to control Kurama, specially to cover it in Perfect Susanoo armor and fight against Hashirama, it's his power which is Sealed inside of Naruto.
It's nonsense responding to your nonsense
No Madara's methods of controlling the Kyubi are not the same because if it was then he'd be able to go BM. As I agree that Jin's who go berserk and have no control over their bijuu is indeed not their power (in this case I am contradicting myself, I know), A perfect host like BM is his power just for the fact that he has to meld his own chakara with Kurama to become a new entity. "Without 2 parts of the equation, there can be no solution." Without his sharigan, there'd be no control, much different from a Jin. Madara does not gain or lose power. All he does is utilize Kurama's feats, that's it
LOL contradiction....? do you even know what that means...? I said the kage are different because they have different ideals, and arent being completely controlled...Its not their power because of these reasons, please learn what you're saying before accusing someone. There is no contradiction here unless you feel that teamwork counts as an individual's power.....
Then tell me how madara learned how to use bijuudama blades?
@Bold: I never stated that he tames kurama several times, look at EMS madara's first susanoo, and look at it now...You think he went from susanoo A to susanoo B by just 1 encounter with kurama....? Stop being such a child its obvious that he trained with it at least more than once in his life.
So this means that you believe madara just controlled kurama, and went to fight hashi without any prep or plans....? LOL
also you havent explained how KKG users got so good at using their nature release... Did they just know how to use techniques or did they learn them?
LMAO now i see where the fail is spouting from....
By your logic, the ability to use kurama's chakra is naruto's power, however kurama's feats arent....? That makes BM/KM kurama's power and not naruto's. You said it yourself, If kurama doesnt count for madara then he doesnt count for naruto, they both only have the ability to use his chakra.
Melding chakra is still using it,
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proves that both the bijuu and the jinchuuriki agree on how much chakra each uses. Therefore naruto is using kurama's chakra' regardless if its melding or not.look again at the scan i posted way back, and look at sasuke awakening his susanoo with EMS. They are similar, and thats how i can compare them...And sasuke doesnt have tsukuyomi.
Ohh gosh I don't even get now what are you talking about, Without his sharingan ? Are you serious ? That's why Madara IS powerful it's because of his Sharingan, you can't take a number 1 feat out from a Character and then debate dude and you just proved yourself that CAUSE of that sharingan he is able to control Kurama, and that Sharingan is Madaras FEAT so.. ?.. Yes, Madara gains power, remember Kurama is SUMMON of Madara and as I remember SUMMONING Jutsu is part of Character feats right ?.. Jeez dude Summoning jutsu combined with Sharingan gives Madara a feat Kurama, you can say that.
4th Lord Hokage
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I guess you don't know how to comprehend as well. I'm not stripping Madara's abilities all I said was without the sharigan, he wouldn't be able to control the Kyubi just as without Naruto there would be no BM (and vice versa). Going by the logic SM Naruto is Ma's power? I've already debated this with PuppyDog and he's been proven wrong. Kurama's BD is not Madara's power however, his ability to control the Kyubi is
Well Dear, prove me wrong but Manga didn't actually gave us that kind of fact.
Hashirama wasn't able to kill Madara, but plus he got tricked, probably got caught in Genjutsu.
As for now Madara is controlling Jyuubi and making his Real Dream come true, while Hashirama is certain he killed Madara.
Well think what you want, but Summoning Jutsu will be always a part of Feats in my opinion. As for Sage Mode it is Narutos power, because he learned it, and it takes skill to use it, it's not like he cannot use it without Ma, and also Madara can use Kurama ALONE by just doing 5 Handsigns, but currently Kurama is sealed so yeah.
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1.Not the same ideals? Was it not their goal to protect the ninja world? For one your wrong because they had the same ideals, which is why they were in the war, which is why they were fighting Madara. You're contradicting yourself and you don't even realize it. What you said and what I said is in anyway no different at all.
Just as Madara combined BD with his Sussano sword to make the BD Sussano slash is the same way the Kages caught Madara with their combination. Your redundancy grows tiresome :|
2. Why are you insulting my intelligence?
You stating that he worked at it, implies that he had to have had an encounter with the Kyubi several times to master covering the Kyubi with his Sussano. You absolutely zero proof to support your speculation
3. Read what I replied to MrLukyso. I said that when a jin is not in control or not a perfect jin then no, I don't consider that as a part of their power because obviously the bijou are loaning the host THEIR power. False in it's entirety. Because what happened when Naruto and Kurama bumped fist? Naruto achieve Bijuu mode, that bumping of fist indicated that they meddled their chakara (this is also true for KM however, Naruto forcibly did this). Your scan proves this when NOT in Bijuu mode, because Kurama didn't want to cooperate and still resented Naruto
4. If Sasuke has Itachi's eyes, then he has Tsukuyomi, just as Kakashi has Obito's eyes and can use Kamui or how Nagato had Madara's Rinnegan and could use Rinne techs. Again, Sasuke cannot manipulate his Sussano like Madara therefore they do not have the same abilities
Honestly, stfu....are they being controlled by someone....? Didnt think so.....
Disregard the "ideals" part, that was just bad word choice on my part. But that isnt my full point, how about you answer the full question instead of beating around the bush....(you wont because you cant)....Do you consider teamwork to be an individual's power? If you do then Im done arguing with you, lmfao
Several times????? I said at least more than once, stop putting words in my mouth
And madara using bijuudama blade in conjunction with susanoo isnt proof enough that madara had previous experience with kurama?? If its not then PLEASE tell me how madara learned how to use it...
Im insulting your intelligence because everything you say can be used against you. You are one of the few people on this base who actually denys the fact that kurama is madara's, and you even try to prove some legitimacy behind it. Its admirable but useless....
Wrong, how about you read the goddamn scan....gyuki says "Normally" implying that this is how all bijuu do it. They discuss how much chakra each of them uses.
When kurama bumped fists with naruto he gave him chakra. And he can use it as he pleases, just as bee can use gyuki's chakra, & madara can use kurama's
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proves that kurama freely transfers his chakra to naruto + SA. Naruto is using kurama's chakra....Im done repeating myselfFalse, show me a scan of sasuke using tsukuyomi, he doesnt have it....
Good point. I guess i was wrong on this after reading that the reverse summon allows the animal to summon the human they have a contract with. In that case, Hadoukage would be correct to say that naruto is apart of their power as they can summon him at will.
@HadouKage: Control isn't the issue with the kyuubi, it's once the user can summon it and use it to their advantage it is apart of their power. However what you said about Naruto being apart of Ma's power is accurate.
You must get repped for stupidity
1. Please repost me saying the Kages were being controlled. Can't find it? Cause I never said it :|
Bad choice of words, bad logical responses and bad comparisons. Do you know what half the words mean before you type them in your post? Without said teamwork, there would be no PS Sword as it took the (work) BD and Madara's Sussano (team) to make the attack.
2. I'm doing no such thing, nor have you stated such this is what you originally said
Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy
You implying that he worked at it means he had several encounters with Kurama, which again, is not proven in the manga just your speculation and the only reason I deny such a thing is because people deny that SM Naruto is not Ma's power when the principle is the same. You insult my intelligence because you flip the script on your words and say dumb things like Sasuke's EMS abilities are the same as Madara's
3. Wow you fail on all accords. This was before Naruto even achieved KM (he didn't even know what Bijuu Dama was at the time) obviously Kurama was doing this because he resented Naruto so why would he share his chakara with him?
Also this page disproves all that you just said
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I hope you know what meld means. Kurama did not just give Naruto his power, they combined their chakara to create BM as proven in the next chapter "A New Power"
4. Again, Kakashi has Kamui which belongs too Tobi logically, Sasuke can use Tskuyomi because he has Itachi's eyes
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Yeah. Unless madara can utilize or summon the technique itself it can't be his power; hence why it isn't listed in his arsenal. It can however be utilized through summoned support (the kyuubi).
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