Even if Madara used Genjutsu on Hashirama, Hashirama > Madara

[Draphsin]

You must get repped for stupidity

1. Please repost me saying the Kages were being controlled. Can't find it? Cause I never said it :|
Bad choice of words, bad logical responses and bad comparisons. Do you know what half the words mean before you type them in your post? Without said teamwork, there would be no PS Sword as it took the (work) BD and Madara's Sussano (team) to make the attack.

Nope, I get repped for proving idiots wrong

Never said that you said the kage were being controlled. The kage are working as a team, They use combination attacks as different people....

Kurama is a beast that is being controlled, completely different from your "teamwork" concept. If he is being controlled then he is a part of the controllers power.

2. I'm doing no such thing, nor have you stated such this is what you originally said

Show me where I said the word "several" that is a word being put into my mouth, you said it again below, you fail to see the difference between several and more than once....

Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy
You implying that he worked at it means he had several encounters with Kurama, which again, is not proven in the manga just your speculation and the only reason I deny such a thing is because people deny that SM Naruto is not Ma's power when the principle is the same. You insult my intelligence because you flip the script on your words and say dumb things like Sasuke's EMS abilities are the same as Madara's

You avoid my question again, lmfao...

1.How did madara learn how do use bijuudama slash if he didnt train more than once with him?

2. I deny SM naruto as Ma's power for an entirely different reason....Once he's summoned its his battle, not hers.

3. Never said sasuke's EMS abilities are the same. I said his susanoo is similar to madara's when he first achieved EMS..

3. Wow you fail on all accords. This was before Naruto even achieved KM (he didn't even know what Bijuu Dama was at the time) obviously Kurama was doing this because he resented Naruto so why would he share his chakara with him?

LOL look who's failing, bee is talking about all bijuu....They all normally discuss to one another how much chakra is used between the two. Kurama doesnt because he was pissed. The point still stands where bijuu talk to their jinchuuriki about how much chakra is used between the two, proving that kurama's chakra is used by naruto.

Also this page disproves all that you just said

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I hope you know what meld means. Kurama did not just give Naruto his power, they combined their chakara to create BM as proven in the next chapter "A New Power"

lmfao oh my gosh, this is hilarious. Tell me how naruto "melding" his chakra with kurama isnt using it? Naruto still gains access to kurama's chakra reserves to create a new power. Madara uses kurama's chakra to create a new power (bijuudama slash)....Therefore he is doing the same thing that naruto is doing, thus making it his power.

4. Again, Kakashi has Kamui which belongs too Tobi logically, Sasuke can use Tskuyomi because he has Itachi's eyes

U_U

You want me to provide proof explaining the obvious fact that madara used kurama more than once, yet you cant prove that sasuke has tsukuyomi. I however have a scan of sasuke using sharingan genjutsu in a situation where he shouldv'e, wouldv'e, could've but didnt use it.

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I don't disagree with what the statements being made, however, I do disagree when people say BD is Madara's power when obviously without Kurama, he cannot use it

Without Kurama naruto cant use bijuudama either, lol


As I said, nothing you say can disprove the fact that kurama is EMS madara's power

 

[HadouKage]

Nope, I get repped for proving idiots wrong

Never said that you said the kage were being controlled. The kage are working as a team, They use combination attacks as different people....

Kurama is a beast that is being controlled, completely different from your "teamwork" concept. If he is being controlled then he is a part of the controllers power.



Show me where I said the word "several" that is a word being put into my mouth, you said it again below, you fail to see the difference between several and more than once....


You avoid my question again, lmfao...

1.How did madara learn how do use bijuudama slash if he didnt train more than once with him?

2. I deny SM naruto as Ma's power for an entirely different reason....Once he's summoned its his battle, not hers.

3. Never said sasuke's EMS abilities are the same. I said his susanoo is similar to madara's when he first achieved EMS..



LOL look who's failing, bee is talking about all bijuu....They all normally discuss to one another how much chakra is used between the two. Kurama doesnt because he was pissed. The point still stands where bijuu talk to their jinchuuriki about how much chakra is used between the two, proving that kurama's chakra is used by naruto.



lmfao oh my gosh, this is hilarious. Tell me how naruto "melding" his chakra with kurama isnt using it? Naruto still gains access to kurama's chakra reserves to create a new power. Madara uses kurama's chakra to create a new power (bijuudama slash)....Therefore he is doing the same thing that naruto is doing, thus making it his power.



U_U

You want me to provide proof explaining the obvious fact that madara used kurama more than once, yet you cant prove that sasuke has tsukuyomi. I however have a scan of sasuke using sharingan genjutsu in a situation where he shouldv'e, wouldv'e, could've but didnt use it.

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Without Kurama naruto cant use bijuudama either, lol


As I said, nothing you say can disprove the fact that kurama is EMS madara's power

I got PuppyDog's Ok, I'm done arguing with idiots the other guy couldn't even get through so don't know why I'm even trying. Everything you said you flipped and on top of that you make zero sense in what you say.

And for the record
sev·er·al
/ˈsev(ə)rəl/
Adjective
More than two but not many: "the author of several books"; "Van Gogh was just one of several artists who gathered at Auvers".
Separate or respective: "their several responsibilities".

 

[Micho22]

I dont think that madara used a genjutsu the body of the ground was madaras real body he survived in a other way i dont know how exactly but he survived
Still hashirama owns him in every way

 

[Draphsin]

I got PuppyDog's Ok, I'm done arguing with idiots the other guy couldn't even get through so don't know why I'm even trying. Everything you said you flipped and on top of that you make zero sense in what you say.

And for the record
sev·er·al
/ˈsev(ə)rəl/
Adjective
More than two but not many: "the author of several books"; "Van Gogh was just one of several artists who gathered at Auvers".
Separate or respective: "their several responsibilities".

lol okay, im glad you convinced him, want a cookie?

Everything you said has been an endless circle of me proving you wrong, If you give up then its okay, I understand

@Bold: lol and on your final note you're gonna prove yourself wrong again? Since when is more than two = more than one?

 

[HadouKage]

lol okay, im glad you convinced him, want a cookie?

Everything you said has been an endless circle of me proving you wrong, If you give up then its okay, I understand

@Bold: lol and on your final note you're gonna prove yourself wrong again? Since when is more than two = more than one?

Regardless of how many times, you have no proof regarding your statement which makes it irrelevant I will gladly dismantle your ignorant statements when I get off of work

 

[Draphsin]

Regardless of how many times, you have no proof regarding your statement which makes it irrelevant I will gladly dismantle your ignorant statements when I get off of work

The only thing i dont have proof of is how many times madara trained with kurama. But its implied that it was more than once, just as sasuke having tsukuyomi is implied (to you) but not proven

The difference is I can prove yours wrong, while you cant prove mine wrong

 

[HadouKage]

The only thing i dont have proof of is how many times madara trained with kurama. But its implied that it was more than once, just as sasuke having tsukuyomi is implied (to you) but not proven

The difference is I can prove yours wrong, while you cant prove mine wrong

All I see is speculation, but I will debunk your foolishness son enough

 

[HadouKage]

Nope, I get repped for proving idiots wrong

Never said that you said the kage were being controlled. The kage are working as a team, They use combination attacks as different people....

Kurama is a beast that is being controlled, completely different from your "teamwork" concept. If he is being controlled then he is a part of the controllers power.



Show me where I said the word "several" that is a word being put into my mouth, you said it again below, you fail to see the difference between several and more than once....


You avoid my question again, lmfao...

1.How did madara learn how do use bijuudama slash if he didnt train more than once with him?

2. I deny SM naruto as Ma's power for an entirely different reason....Once he's summoned its his battle, not hers.

3. Never said sasuke's EMS abilities are the same. I said his susanoo is similar to madara's when he first achieved EMS..



LOL look who's failing, bee is talking about all bijuu....They all normally discuss to one another how much chakra is used between the two. Kurama doesnt because he was pissed. The point still stands where bijuu talk to their jinchuuriki about how much chakra is used between the two, proving that kurama's chakra is used by naruto.



lmfao oh my gosh, this is hilarious. Tell me how naruto "melding" his chakra with kurama isnt using it? Naruto still gains access to kurama's chakra reserves to create a new power. Madara uses kurama's chakra to create a new power (bijuudama slash)....Therefore he is doing the same thing that naruto is doing, thus making it his power.



U_U

You want me to provide proof explaining the obvious fact that madara used kurama more than once, yet you cant prove that sasuke has tsukuyomi. I however have a scan of sasuke using sharingan genjutsu in a situation where he shouldv'e, wouldv'e, could've but didnt use it.

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Without Kurama naruto cant use bijuudama either, lol


As I said, nothing you say can disprove the fact that kurama is EMS madara's power

1. I've misread your post about the Kages being controlled I apologize, however it doesn't negate the fact that you are contradicting yourself. The concept of combining and teamwork is one in the same as the the result of teamwork is of combined factors of individuals of the team. Seriously, open a dictionary. Now let me try again

The team was Madara and the Kyubi. The work they put out was BD and the Sussano sword. The TEAMWORK of both of them COMBINED allowed them to create the BD sword
The team was Gaara, Mei, and the Raikage. The WORK they put in was combing their jutsu so that Madara could be sealed. The TEAMWORK or the COMBINED jutsu allowed them to catch Madara

Whether they were controlled or not doesn't matter without Kurama's BD, there would be no BD Sword I don't know why that is so hard to understand. I just listed both of our examples and they are no different

2. Whether you said "several" or "more than once..." (implying twice) is irrelevant you have no proof. Absolutely none. All you keep saying is "He obviously had to have had the Kyubi more than once." That statement is full of speculation. If you don't have a manga page proving your statement its null, void, irrelevant and fallacious.

If you say Madara summoning Kurama is his power, it's no different from Ma summoning SM Naruto as her power. The fact that you deny that contradicts your whole argument.

Wow, so you have short term memory too huh?
You have in fact stated the they are the same

Sasuke has the exact power as Madara

Similar in appearance maybe, not abilities. Stop comparing them. In fact,

3. It's tantamount moron, they are combining their power to become more powerful. Show me a page where BM Naruto was ever concerned about Kurama taking his chakara or not giving it to Naruto. Without BM he cannot voluntarily use BD your statement is invalid. Only by transforming into BM can Naruto use BM. There's is a difference in using an external force and combining it and utilizing something that already has your power. Madara's EMS ability to control Kurama is his power. Again, Kurama's BD is not Madara's power

4. I have already given you proof the process of Kakashi's having Tobi's eye is no different then Sasuke having Itachi's eye. Just like Tobi's eye was implanted in Kakashi, Itachi's eyes went through the same process. Use common sense. By your logic, Kakashi can't use Kamui.... oh wait :|

Did I say Naruto could use BD without Kurama? I'm well aware that he can't. However, what you seem to not understand the fact is that BM is the result of both Naruto and Kurama's chakara therefore making BM Naruto's power. Naruto can use BD while in BM so yes BD is his power

 

[BlinkST]

Madara using Kyubi was far from "teamwork".

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The Biju was part of his power, regardless of it's consent or him having it sealed into him; the reason he doesn't have it sealed shiould be fairly obvious. I'm pretty sure natural energy doesn't exactly give Hashirama permission to absorb it into his body, but the potential to use Sage mode in battle still counts towards being his power. The only people who have Biju sealed are the ones who don't have ridiculously powerful bloodline traits to tame them.

 

[Draphsin]

1. I've misread your post about the Kages being controlled I apologize, however it doesn't negate the fact that you are contradicting yourself. The concept of combining and teamwork is one in the same as the the result of teamwork is of combined factors of individuals. Seriously, open a dictionary. Now let me try again

Is kurama an individual? Naruto + kurama would be teamwork then, no?

The team was Madara and the Kyubi. The work they put out was BD and the Sussano sword. The TEAMWORK of both of them COMBINED allowed them to create the BD sword
The team was Gaara, Mei, and the Raikage. The WORK they put in was combing their jutsu so that Madara could be sealed. The TEAMWORK or the COMBINED jutsu allowed them to catch Madara

The team is Naruto + kurama, naruto can use kurama's chakra to create a BM cloak, by your concept of "teamwork" this also falls under that category.

Whether they were controlled or not doesn't matter without Kurama's BD, there would be no BD Sword I don't know why that is so hard to understand. I just listed both of our examples and they are no different

This exact same concept applies to naruto, without kurama's chakra, he cant go into BM.

2. Whether you said "several" or "more than once..." (implying twice) is irrelevant you have no proof. Absolutely none. All you keep saying is "He obviously had to have had the Kyubi more than once." That statement is full of speculation. If you don't have a manga page proving your statement its null, void, irrelevant and fallacious.

LOL You avoid the question AGAIN.

Then tell me how madara learned how to use a bijuudama slash?

Did he learn it or did he just "automatically know"? If you say that he learned it, then you admit that madara had time to train with kurama whether it be once, or twice. Saying that he didnt have time to train because there is no "proof" is just you saying that madara already had these abilities even before he had kurama...And that is just laughable.

If you say Madara summoning Kurama is his power, it's no different from Ma summoning SM Naruto as her power. The fact that you deny that contradicts your whole argument.

Yes it is, I already said how its different, it seems as though you fail to read my responses, typical

Ma doesnt fight with naruto, once he's summoned its his fight, not Ma's. Naruto becomes the enemy, not Ma...Completely different than using a power in conjunction with your own, because madara is the enemy, not kurama.

3. It's tantamount moron, they are combining their power to become more powerful. Show me a page where BM Naruto was ever concerned about Kurama taking his chakara or not giving it to Naruto. Without BM he cannot voluntarily use BD your statement is invalid. Only by transforming into BM can Naruto use BM. There's is a difference in using an external force and combining it and utilizing something that already has your power. Madara's EMS ability to control Kurama is his power. Again, Kurama's BD is not Madara's power

And madara doesnt combine his power with kurama's? U_U

Fail, you straight deny the fact that naruto still utilizes kurama's chakra. Please keep denying it its hilarious to watch. Naruto's chakra isnt creating the bijuudama is it? its kurama's chakra, therefore by your logic its kurama's feat....

4. I have already given you proof the process of Kakashi's having Tobi's eye is no different then Sasuke having Itachi's eye. Just like Tobi's eye was implanted in Kakashi, Itachi's eyes went through the same process. Use common sense. By your logic, Kakashi can't use Kamui.... oh wait :|

lol you give no proof that the fused EMS retains the abilities of the dead MS user. This is the vital piece of evidence you need to prove yourself right, yet you dont have it.

I on the other hand have shown that sasuke has not demonstrated any possibility to have tsukuyomi, yet you still consider it as fact? lmao oh please stop with the utter nonsense...

I'm well aware that he can't. However, what you seem to not understand the fact is that BM is the result of both Naruto and Kurama's chakara therefore making BM Naruto's power. Naruto can use BD while in BM so yes BD is his power

bijuudama slash is a result of madara/kurama's chakra, please tell me the goddamn difference between the two????

 

[HadouKage]

Madara using Kyubi was far from "teamwork".

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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The Biju was part of his power, regardless of it's consent or him having it sealed into him; the reason he doesn't have it sealed shiould be fairly obvious. I'm pretty sure natural energy doesn't exactly give Hashirama permission to absorb it into his body, but the potential to use Sage mode in battle still counts towards being his power. The only people who have Biju sealed are the ones who don't have ridiculously powerful bloodline traits to tame them.

team·work
/ˈtēmˌwərk/
Noun
The combined action of a group of people, esp. when effective and efficient.

Your statement is irrelevant it was teamwork
And Naruto is of the Uzuzmaki and they have a powerful bloodline trait to tame it

 

[Draphsin]

There's is a difference in using an external force and combining it and utilizing something that already has your power

Kurama already has naruto's power? since when? lmfao

Madara and naruto both utilize kurama's chakra. The only difference being that kurama is sealed inside of naruto, whereas madara needs to summon kurama in order to use him.

Internal and external forces dont matter because you are still using the chakra of the bijuu

Wow, so you have short term memory too huh?
You have in fact stated the they are the same

I was speaking in terms of susanoo, use common knowledge. This is obvious If you actually take the time to read my argument ffs....

 

[Prince Charles]

Summons are apart of your power; the kyuubi is Madara's summon as he can summon it at will, no different from Naruto Summoning Gamabunta. Their fight at Vote was inconclusive. Hashirama is stronger than Prime Madara but apparently by an infinitesimal margin.

lol? infinitesimal margin? you know how many times hashirama beat madara and he wasnt even trying to kill madara? Using the word infinitesimal is a bit fanboyish dont you think?

 

[Flawž]

Casting genjutsu on an opponent to run away isnt a feat.

 

[HadouKage]

Is kurama an individual? Naruto + kurama would be teamwork then, no?



The team is Naruto + kurama, naruto can use kurama's chakra to create a BM cloak, by your concept of "teamwork" this also falls under that category.



This exact same concept applies to naruto, without kurama's chakra, he cant go into BM.



LOL You avoid the question AGAIN.

Then tell me how madara learned how to use a bijuudama slash?

Did he learn it or did he just "automatically know"? If you say that he learned it, then you admit that madara had time to train with kurama whether it be once, or twice. Saying that he didnt have time to train because there is no "proof" is just you saying that madara already had these abilities even before he had kurama...And that is just laughable.



Yes it is, I already said how its different, it seems as though you fail to read my responses, typical

Ma doesnt fight with naruto, once he's summoned its his fight, not Ma's. Naruto becomes the enemy, not Ma...Completely different than using a power in conjunction with your own, because madara is the enemy, not kurama.



And madara doesnt combine his power with kurama's? U_U

Fail, you straight deny the fact that naruto still utilizes kurama's chakra. Please keep denying it its hilarious to watch. Naruto's chakra isnt creating the bijuudama is it? its kurama's chakra, therefore by your logic its kurama's feat....



lol you give no proof that the fused EMS retains the abilities of the dead MS user. This is the vital piece of evidence you need to prove yourself right, yet you dont have it.

I on the other hand have shown that sasuke has not demonstrated any possibility to have tsukuyomi, yet you still consider it as fact? lmao oh please stop with the utter nonsense...


No but you said madara cant



If he cant then naruto cant...lol...and you tell me to use common sense, sheesh



bijuudama slash is a result of madara/kurama's chakra, please tell me the goddamn difference between the two????

1. I thought that was self explanatory stop beating around the bush when I debunk your redundant statement

2. Goku uses the energy of the planet and people to create the spirit bomb, and it's his move. However without Goku, the spirit bomb cannot be used. The same concept applies to Naruto. With the fox inside of him, BD cannot be used unless he goes into BM
Obviously he can't go into BM without Kurama and Bijuu mode isn't obtainable without them mending both Naruto and Kurama's chakara

3. I'm not avoiding the question, just showing how much ignorance is in your post. Sasuke successfully used Amateratsu on Bee on his first try. Unlike your statement about Madara I have proof that he did. We don't know because it hasn't been shown in the manga, all your doing is guessing and that doesn't make it right. Prove to me that Sasuke didn't use Amateratsu properly on his first try.

4. What does fighting have to do with anything? If Madara summoned Kurama and did nothing would you still consider that Madara's power? The fact is "if you summon it, then it's your power." Jiraya can summon toads and he does not control them. Tsunade can summon slugs and she does not control them, Oro can summon Manda and he does not use him. Tayuya summon her demonic fighters via that flute, she did not fight Shikamaru, does that mean that is not her power? Obviously not. If you do not agree that SM Naruto is not Ma's power, again you contradict your whole argument. Kurama's wasn't Hashi's enemy? I don't even know what to say to that :|

5. Show me a scan where Sasuke manipulated his Sussano to his will. Show me a scan where Sasuke stabilized his Sussano, when you do that, then I will refute my claim. Madara does not control Enton therefore it is not the same just as Sasuke's cannot utilize his Sussano with his EMS like Madara can

6. *facepalm*
Why do you keep changing your statements, you just said Kurama controls him against his will.
I just came to the realization that you have poor comprehension. Obviously if they combine their chakara then technically he still is using Kurama and his own. You state Naruto's chakara isn't creating BD just like Madara cannot create BD which means BD is not his power. Naruto is melds (combines) his chakara with Kurama to create BM and in BM he can use BD.

7. What are you? Retarded? Kakashi has Obito's Kamui, Sasuke has Itachi's Ama, what more proof do you need?
So you have a manga page with Sasuke trying to use Tsukuyomi and failing? Please tell what Naruto page it's on because I don't remember seeing it :|

8. And I'm right, Madara can't use BD

9. Ok according to your logic, Madara isn't his, it's all in the eyes. *facepalm*
Madara's chakara is in no way helping to create BD however, with BM Naruto, both Naruto and Kurama are using THEIR MELDDED CHAKARA to create BD I don't see what so hard to understand about that.

10. Bijuudama Slash is a result of Kurama because without BD then it would just be slash. BM is also UTILIZING NARUTO'S CHAKARA, AS WELL AS KURAMA'S that's the difference

 

[HadouKage]

Kurama already has naruto's power? since when? lmfao

Madara and naruto both utilize kurama's chakra. The only difference being that kurama is sealed inside of naruto, whereas madara needs to summon kurama in order to use him.

Internal and external forces dont matter because you are still using the chakra of the bijuu



I was speaking in terms of susanoo, use common knowledge. This is obvious If you actually take the time to read my argument ffs....

I won't even reply to the first question
Sigh show me a scan where Sasuke manipulated his Sussano to the extent Madara has

 

[Strawberry]

madara was controlling it with jutsu so kurama is considered part of him in battle hashirama beats madara but i dont tihnk he can beat him with rinnegan kishi would never do that... hes gona make it a long difficult battle even with the hokage together

 

[HadouKage]

Funny how even though Madara and Tobi were controlling the Juubi at first they still reffered to its power as its own individual power

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