Even if Madara used Genjutsu on Hashirama, Hashirama > Madara

[Draphsin]

All the matter its the same thing, only difference is Haku is an external force. Kurama is not
I agree that before he had control than it wasn't his power. However, Naruto worked to combine his chakara with Kurama's that is what makes it his power. If you notice Madara doesn't do that. Naruto goes into BM by meddling his chakara with Kuramas. That's why BM is his power

The sanin have summons as external forces....no difference there.

And you think that madara learned how to create kurama's susanoo armor and bijuudama blades overnight?? He obviously worked at it. Compare sasuke's susanoo to madara's. Sasuke has the exact same power as madara, he's obviously gonna get better at it but he's nowhere near madara's mastery with it. Madara started from that point too.....

No, your stubbornness and lack of intelligent comprehension has exhausted me.

Can you not comprehend the difference between transforming into something and using your eyes to control something which you cannot transform into?

Transformation makes no difference....Naruto can use kurama's chakra, so can madara....Your point is irrelevant

kurama is an outside power clearly, if kurama is sealed into someone or something then madara is screwed, kurama can also be taken away from madara and lastly if madara's control is disrupted then kurama will turn on him instead

All of these concepts apply to ninja tools, a weapon can be disarmed from an opponent and used against him or taken away. There is no difference, It remains his until its permanently dealt with

 

[HadouKage]

Don't...be idiotic.

No one's being idiotic, I'm taking what you said and applying to a logical sense
She summoned SM Naruto (doh!) and you just said that summons are a part of a person power.

 

[Draphsin]

No one's being idiotic, I'm taking what you said and applying to a logical sense
She summoned SM Naruto (doh!) and you just said that summons are a part of a person power.

Does she fight with SM naruto??

She's completely useless, its not her fight once naruto gets involved, its naruto's fight

 

[HadouKage]

The sanin have summons as external forces....no difference there.

And you think that madara learned how to create kurama's susanoo armor and bijuudama blades overnight?? He obviously worked at it. Compare sasuke's susanoo to madara's. Sasuke has the exact same power as madara, he's obviously gonna get better at it but he's nowhere near madara's mastery with it. Madara started from that point too.....

1. Sussano is a Uchiha dojutusu, the Sharigan are a part of an Uchiha's power since it is hereditary. And Sussano is nothing but the users chakara made into an external force. That is different from a Bijuu
2. You have no manga proof to prove this, at all. So you making silly statements like that doesn't make it true. We do not know how many times Madara had possession of the Kyubi. Sasuke mastered Enton overnight right?
3. In my personal belief (like ShishaMastah420 is saying in a sort) an external force held against their will (technically) doesn't make it a person's power. I believe that external forces that uses THEIR power for the benefits of others doesn't not make it the controllers power. Like I said, that's like saying Haku is Zabuza's power
4. Sasuke power in feats yes, same power? Not at all

 

[Waltz]

No one's being idiotic, I'm taking what you said and applying to a logical sense
She summoned SM Naruto (doh!) and you just said that summons are a part of a person power.

Ma cannot leave Mount Myōboku unless initially summoned by someone who signs the Blood Contract, enabling them to summon toads. If you are referring to this:

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You would realize that Both Ma and the Summoned clone are naruto's summons, and both aided his power. She only completed the summoning jutsu written on the scroll instead of naruto himself. This is different from summoning something on your own accord.

 

[End of Days]

All of these concepts apply to ninja tools, a weapon can be disarmed from an opponent and used against him or taken away. There is no difference, It remains his until its permanently dealt with

a weapon cannot think for itself and nor will it under any circumstance attack its owner
also a ninja should be able to use his weapon at all times but madara is helpless if kurama is sealed into someone

 

[HadouKage]

Does she fight with SM naruto??

She's completely useless, its not her fight once naruto gets involved, its naruto's fight

Summons are apart of your power; the kyuubi is Madara's summon as he can summon it at will, no different from Naruto Summoning Gamabunta. Their fight at Vote was inconclusive. Hashirama is stronger than Prime Madara but apparently by an infinitesimal margin.

Read above, I'm just using what was said. Regardless of whether you fight with them or not, "a summon is a part of your power" just like PuppyDog just said

 

[chancek7]

The Naruto and Ma thing is plain stupid.

 

[Waltz]

Does she fight with SM naruto??

She's completely useless, its not her fight once naruto gets involved, its naruto's fight

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If she aids his ability to win a battle, then she is apart of his power. Not to mention that she can be summoned at will, just as Madara can summon the kyuubi at will.

 

[HadouKage]

Ma cannot leave Mount Myōboku unless initially summoned by someone who signs the Blood Contract, enabling them to summon toads. If you are referring to this:

You must be registered for see images

You would realize that Both Ma and the Summoned clone are naruto's summons, and both aided his power. She only completed the summoning jutsu written on the scroll instead of naruto himself. This is different from summoning something on your own accord.

Naruto is not a toad, as I've seen in the manga, she was on the outskirts of Kohona. Actually, she was the one who summoned Naruto, Pa and the boss toads because they were still at the Mount

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This contradicts everything you just said as that was not a clone but the real Naruto

Like I said, going by your logic, Naruto is Ma's power

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Hashirama > Madara

Stated by:

- Madara on multiple occasions
- Kabuto
- Facts

 

[Waltz]

Naruto is not a toad, as I've seen in the manga, she was on the outskirts of Kohona. Actually, she was the one who summoned Naruto, Pa and the boss toads because they were still at the Mount

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This contradicts everything you just said as that was not a clone but the real Naruto

Like I said, going by your logic, Naruto is Ma's power

Peanuts. Don't be Idiotic. I guess it was Ma vs Pein, and Ma won the fight? Well actually she lost because she got one-shotted with a chakra rod. Have some deductive logic and stop being so stuck up on smart ass questions.

 

[Draphsin]

1. Sussano is a Uchiha dojutusu, the Sharigan are a part of an Uchiha's power since it is hereditary. And Sussano is nothing but the users chakara made into an external force. That is different from a Bijuu

The uchiha dojutsu mangekyou sharingan grants the user the ability to control a bijuu. Restricting the use of this MS's ability is the same thing as restricting a shinobi's power to summon.

2. You have no manga proof to prove this, at all. So you making silly statements like that doesn't make it true. We do not know how many times Madara had possession of the Kyubi. Sasuke mastered Enton overnight right?

Sasuke didnt master enton, go reread the manga, he used enton a few times during his MS awakening. Look at how long its taken him to finally complete susanoo.

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If you think that he jumped from this to kurama susanoo armor and bijuudama blades overnight then you must lack common sense U_U

3. In my personal belief (like ShishaMastah420 is saying in a sort) an external force held against their will (technically) doesn't make it a person's power. I believe that external forces that uses THEIR power for the benefits of others doesn't not make it the controllers power. Like I said, that's like saying Haku is Zabuza's power

This isnt "technically", this is purely opinionated. Fact of the matter is that if they're being controlled then that makes them a tool to be used in battle. Nothing more

4. Sasuke power in feats yes, same power? Not at all

Point is we've only seen the beginning of what he can do....And its comparable to madara's first time using susanoo's EMS power, as shown above

 

[HadouKage]

Peanuts. Don't be Idiotic. I guess it was Ma vs Pein, and Ma won the fight? Well actually she lost because she got one-shotted with a chakra rod. Have some deductive logic and stop being so stuck up on smart ass questions.

Summons are apart of your power; the kyuubi is Madara's summon as he can summon it at will, no different from Naruto Summoning Gamabunta.

Peanuts. Don't be idiotic. Maybe you should take your own advice. I am using deductive logic and I came to the conclusion that Ma summoned Naruto and therefore that makes her part of his power, just as you said above.

Power
1. The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: her powers of concentration.
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at strength.
4. The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
5. A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others: the western powers.
6. The might of a nation, political organization, or similar group.
7. Forcefulness; effectiveness:

Ma summoning Naruto fits definitions 1, 5 and 7

 

[God Itachi]

Being a jinchuuriki and controlling a bijuu via sharingan are two completely different things

Same power i believe, the bijuu is just being controlled differently, but its the same

 

[Draphsin]

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If she aids his ability to win a battle, then she is apart of his power. Not to mention that she can be summoned at will, just as Madara can summon the kyuubi at will.

So you disagreed with them, then you disagree with me...?.....Interesting

a weapon cannot think for itself and nor will it under any circumstance attack its owner
also a ninja should be able to use his weapon at all times but madara is helpless if kurama is sealed into someone

Kurama cant think for itself while being controlled by madara

And yes I agree, when its sealed into a jinchuuriki then its not that person's power anymore, unless taken back. But until kurama is sealed it is a part of EMS madara

Kurama cant be turned against madara, hashi had to put it to sleep. If kurama is awake then madara can just control him again

 

[HadouKage]

The uchiha dojutsu mangekyou sharingan grants the user the ability to control a bijuu. Restricting the use of this MS's ability is the same thing as restricting a shinobi's power to summon.



Sasuke didnt master enton, go reread the manga, he used enton a few times during his MS awakening. Look at how long its taken him to finally complete susanoo.

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If you think that he jumped from this to kurama susanoo armor and bijuudama blades overnight then you must lack common sense U_U



This isnt "technically", this is purely opinionated. Fact of the matter is that if they're being controlled then that makes them a tool to be used in battle. Nothing more



Point is we've only seen the beginning of what he can do....And its comparable to madara's first time using susanoo's EMS power, as shown above

1. The ability to control the Bijuu is their power. Kurama's Bijuu Dama is not Madara's power
2. Sasuke is able to change the shape in his Enton which takes mastery to do, just like Naruto had to train for Fuuton Rasenshuriken is no different from Sasuke changing and manipulating his Enton
3. Go look at what power means, if you say this, then I can say that Haku is Zabuza's power
4. You need to specify what you mean when you say "same power" Madara and Sasuke's EMS grant them different abilities in what their EMS can do

 

[Smd]

There has been many theories to how Madara survived. Was it Tsukuyomi? Was it Izanami? Did he just survive? Many believe that he used some sort of Genjutsu which resulted in Hashirama thinking he killed Madara, which he didn't, and Madara went on to do his jazz.

People use this as solid evidence that Madara > Hashirama. However this is not the case. Hashirama is still stronger than Madara if you take into account that they fought countless numbers of battles and Hashirama won one after another. Also keep in mind that Madara was controlling Kurama. It was two vs one and Hashirama beat both.

Hashirama is still stronger than Madara regardless of Genjutsu.

w/o plot

tskyomi or madara genjutsu

solos hashirama.

 

[Draphsin]

1. The ability to control the Bijuu is their power. Kurama's Bijuu Dama is not Madara's power

So Madara's bijuudama blade isnt his power either? and naruto's bijuudama arent his either (they all come from the exact same source, kurama)

2. Sasuke is able to change the shape in his Enton which takes mastery to do, just like Naruto had to train for Fuuton Rasenshuriken is no different from Sasuke changing and manipulating his Enton

Compare his enton mastery to his susanoo mastery...His susanoo took forever to finally complete and when he did, he went blind. susanoo takes time to master, as opposed to ama and tsukuyomi, which Itachi mastered almost immediately.

3. Go look at what power means, if you say this, then I can say that Haku is Zabuza's power

No, Haku is fighting of her own free will. Zabuza isnt forcibly controlling her, she does it because she wants to.

4. You need to specify what you mean when you say "same power" Madara and Sasuke's EMS grant them different abilities

They both got susanoo...

 

[HadouKage]

So Madara's bijuudama blade isnt his power either? and naruto's bijuudama arent his either (they all come from the exact same source, kurama)



Compare his enton mastery to his susanoo mastery...His susanoo took forever to finally complete and when he did, he went blind. susanoo takes time to master, as opposed to ama and tsukuyomi, which Itachi mastered almost immediately.





No, Haku is fighting of her own free will. Zabuza isnt forcibly controlling her, she does it because she wants to.



They both got susanoo...

1. When Naruto mastered BM, then it became his power. In order for Naruto to achieve BM what does he have to do? MELD HIS CHAKARA WITH KURAMA'S Naruto uses BD while in Bijuu mode so yes it is power. The BM sword cannot be created without BD so that is null and void.

2. Why are you straying off topic? You claimed that Madara has tamed the Kyubi several times, which has not once been proven in the manga. I was just making a comparison that Sasuke had master Enton in one night (which has not been proven either). You cannot make presumptuous statements like that

3. "A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others"
Refer to what I've said before. Zabuza saved Haku's life, that was all the influence Haku needed to fight for Zabuza so going by your logic, Haku is Zabuza's power. Stop being redundant :|

4. As I said, in terms of feats of the sharigan yes. Sasuke's EMS doesn't give him the ability to manipulate his Sussano like Madara so no it's not the same power