Even if Madara used Genjutsu on Hashirama, Hashirama > Madara

[Blaze Release]

Kurama agains't hashirama was nothing more than an extension of madara's will, no different to susanoo or his left leg
It would also appear that madara has gained a contract somehow which allows him to summon kurama when ever he wanted.
He displayed this when if not the beast being sealed in naruto, he would have successfully summoned it

 

[Waltz]

Peanuts. Don't be idiotic. Maybe you should take your own advice. I am using deductive logic and I came to the conclusion that Ma summoned Naruto and therefore that makes her part of his power, just as you said above.

Power
1. The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: her powers of concentration.
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at strength.
4. The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
5. A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others: the western powers.
6. The might of a nation, political organization, or similar group.
7. Forcefulness; effectiveness:

Ma summoning Naruto fits definitions 1, 5 and 7

Maybe you haven't realized, Ma was only able to summon naruto because he was at Mount Myōboku as he now becomes a part of the Gama summon based on his location. Pa specifically ordered her to make a joint summon of Naruto and the toads [

You must be registered for see links

] to konoha. Such a thing cannot take place if naruto is outside of the Mount as he is no longer in their jurisdiction. It's not that hard to see. If Naruto and those toads were "Ma's summon" and apart of "Ma's Power" they would've all dispersed when she died [

You must be registered for see links

]. If you cannot see this, then you may continue to dwell in ignorance.

 

[Touken]

But a Bijuu is a part of a Jinchuuriki, the fact that Naruto actually becomes the 9-Tails when he succumbs to his rage actually testifies that. Controlling a Bijuu using the Sharingan and being able to use your power to coat it with a Susanoo armour shows that the Bijuu is an external force. Jinchuuriki can't do certain things to their Bijuu and Madara can't do certain things to Kurama, so wouldn't that make controlling a Bijuu and being a Jinchuuriki different?

 

[Draphsin]

1. When Naruto mastered BM, then it became his power. In order for Naruto to achieve BM what does he have to do? MELD HIS CHAKARA WITH KURAMA'S Naruto uses BD while in Bijuu mode so yes it is power. The BM sword cannot be created without BM so that is null and void.

You must be registered for see links

Naruto doesnt need to meld his chakra with kurama's in order to use a bijuudama.

2. Why are you straying off topic? You claimed that Madara has tamed the Kyubi several times, which has not once been proven in the manga. I was just making a comparison that Sasuke had master Enton in one night (which has not been proven either). You cannot make presumptuous statements like that

So you think 1 day madara found kurama and created these techniques out of the blue? Im sorry but that has to be the most ignorant claim ive seen yet...Assuming that madara didnt have time to use kurama the way he did is ridiculous. Its the same thing as assuming that hashi learned shinsuuenju as soon as he achieved SM...He obviously learned how to use it before mastering it U_U

3. "A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others"
Refer to what I've said before. Zabuza saved Haku's life, that was all the influence Haku needed to fight for Zabuza so going by your logic, Haku is Zabuza's power. Stop being redundant :|

lol please, dont confuse my logic with yours. Haku is fighting for zabuza, yes. But is she being controlled against her will??? Not in the slightest...She is a human being with her own ideals. kabuto fights for oro, is he oro's power too...........? U_U This is a bad point stop trying to argue it

4. As I said, in terms of feats of the sharigan yes. Sasuke's EMS doesn't give him the ability to manipulate his Sussano like Madara so no it's not the same power

LOL and prove this statement. Until we see sasuke use susanoo for as long as madara has then you can make comparisons, but as of now they both have similar susanoos when they first awakened EMS. Cant deny it

 

[BISHOPALONE]

fact: Madara doesnt stand a chance against hashirama. He stole the kyuubi thinking he would win....madara + kyuubi didnt still stand a chance

 

[HadouKage]

Maybe you haven't realized, Ma was only able to summon naruto because he was at Mount Myōboku as he now becomes a part of the Gama summon based on his location. Pa specifically ordered her to make a joint summon of Naruto and the toads [

You must be registered for see links

] to konoha. Such a thing cannot take place if naruto is outside of the Mount as he is no longer in their jurisdiction. It's not that hard to see. If Naruto and those toads were "Ma's summon" and apart of "Ma's Power" they would've all dispersed when she died [

You must be registered for see links

]. If you cannot see this, then you may continue to dwell in ignorance.

And the bold is where you contradict yourself
Regardless, she summoned them. You stated a condition (of which I don't know is true I will look into it) that Ma needed to summon them correct? What was the requirement for Madara to summon Kurama? His EMS. You saying that the Kyubi is Madara's power is no different from saying that Naruto is Ma's power.

If Naruto and those toads were "Ma's summon" and apart of "Ma's Power" they would've all dispersed when she died

If the Kyubi were truly Madara's power, then not only wouldn't he need the sharigan to control it, but Obito wouldn't be able to control it as well

 

[End of Days]

Maybe you haven't realized, Ma was only able to summon naruto because he was at Mount Myōboku as he now becomes a part of the Gama summon based on his location.

then whats this

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[6thpathsage]

Omfg OP we know this already. Threads were made to find out how he escaped after he got stabbed. How does this thread have any relevance??

 

[Draphsin]

fact: Madara doesnt stand a chance against hashirama. He stole the kyuubi thinking he would win....madara + kyuubi didnt still stand a chance

You must be registered for see images

Too bad you cant accept what's reality

 

[HadouKage]

You must be registered for see links

Naruto doesnt need to meld his chakra with kurama's in order to use a bijuudama.



So you think 1 day madara found kurama and created these techniques out of the blue? Im sorry but that has to be the most ignorant claim ive seen yet...Assuming that madara didnt have time to use kurama like the way he did is ridiculous. Its the same thing as assuming that hashi learned shinsuuenju as soon as he achieved SM...He obviously learned how to use it before mastering it U_U



lol please, dont confuse my logic with yours. Haku is fighting for zabuza, yes. But is she being controlled against her will??? Not in the slightest...She is a human being with her own ideals. kabuto fights for oro, is he oro's power too...........? U_U This is a bad point stop trying to argue it



LOL and prove this statement. Until we see sasuke use susanoo for as long as madara has then you can make comparisons, but as of now they both have similar susanoos when they first awakened EMS. Cant deny it

1. Why are we playing dumb games? Yes Naruto has the potential to use it but he isn't in control Naruto is unconscious and has no recollection of anything when he goes berserk and the Kyubi takes over. so that statement is null and void. Naruto willing uses BD while in BM and the only way for him to achieve BM is when HE MELDS HIS CHAKARA WITH KURAMA'S

2. Again, you cannot assume things that is not in the manga, when you show me proof of this, then I will refute my claims, but until then my statement stands. Mastering his EMS to shell the kyubi is a lot different then taming the Kyubi for several times at a time

3. Did you not read the dictionary definition I just posted twice?
pow·er (pour)
n.
1. The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: her powers of concentration.
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at strength.
4. The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
5. A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others


in·flu·ence [in-floo-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, in·flu·enced, in·flu·enc·ing.
noun
1.
the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract.
2.
the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay

Don't argue with facts given to you that are right in front of your face. Power has more than one definition. No one is confusing your logic in fact your logic makes no sense as all I'm doing is piggybacking off your claim and presenting you with proof. Zabuza influenced Haku to fight for him therefore that makes him his power :|

4. Itachi's MS allows him to control Tsukuyomi, Madara's EMS allows him to control his Sussano, Sasuke's EMS allows him to manipulate Enton, with EMS what has he shown? Enton Yagamasta. And you can't comprehend, I said in terms of SHARIGAN FEATS, yes they are the same, however their EMS abilities aren't

 

[Strict]

An Uchiha can only lose to a Senju on purpose. It makes no sense that Uchiha are not the strongest.

btt, I don't think it was a Genjutsu or something else. The strike Hashirama gave to Madara was real. As Tobi said from Madaras point of view, he survived seriously wounded though he was supposed to be dead. And he implanted Hashiramas DNA in that wound. Hashirama maybe left Madaras body there without realizing that latter is still alive.

 

[HadouKage]

then whats this

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Good find, I haven't read that far back in a while

 

[HadouKage]

the anus of hashirama fanboys is burning right now..

they cant handle the possibility that madara spared hashirama (just like sasuke spared naruto)

And it seems like Madara fanboys are wet for him
That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that Madara was the one with his face in the puddle

 

[Touken]

I think Naruto could have killed him, especially as we had seen before that Rasengan > Chidori. Also, Naruto's aim was definitely not to kill Sasuke, only to 'scratch his ninja headband', which he did.

 

[Draphsin]

1. Why are we playing dumb games? Yes Naruto has the potential to use it but he isn't in control Naruto is unconscious and has no recollection of anything when he goes berserk and the Kyubi takes over. so that statement is null and void. Naruto willing uses BD while in BM when HE MELDS HIS CHAKARA WITH KURAMA'S

Bam, got you...Madara melds his susanoo sword with bijuudamas. Thus he is melding kurama's chakra with his

And you think it takes no chakra to control kurama? if that isnt the case for you then madara is optically adding chakra to control kurama as well

2. Again, you cannot assume things that is not in the manga, when you show me proof of this, then I will refute my claims, but until then my statement stands. Mastering his EMS to shell the kyubi is a lot different then taming the Kyubi for several times at a time

Then tell me, how can madara master his EMS to perfectly shell kurama if he doesnt even have a kurama to shell....? This is ridiculous. And so you agree that your logic means hashi mastered shinsuusenju as soon as he learned SM, or an even better example of your logic would be that anybody with a KKG who hasnt been shown to master it is already amazing at using it right....? This is what your point suggests U_U

3. Did you not read the dictionary definition I just proved twice?
pow·er (pour)
n.
1. The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: her powers of concentration.
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at strength.
4. The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
5. A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others
in·flu·ence [in-floo-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, in·flu·enced, in·flu·enc·ing.
noun
1.
the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract.
2.
the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay

Don't argue with facts given to you that are right in front of your face. Power has more than one definition. No one is confusing your logic in fact your logic makes no sense as all I'm doing is piggybacking off your claim and presenting you with proof. Zabuza influenced Haku to fight for him therefore that makes him his power :|

Stop posting that crap i know what the definition of power is... So you once again agree that kabuto is oro's power as well? how naive....

Haku has her own Ideals, for the 50th time ill post it. Just because zabuza influenced her decision doesnt mean that she's his power, do you understand that this point makes absolutely no sense?

@Bold: these definitions fit madara's power over kurama....I dont know why you think this helps you. If you believe in those definitions then you belive that kurama is EMS madara's power, lol.

4. Itachi's MS allows him to control Tsykuyomi, Madara's EMS allows him to control his Sussano, Sasuke's EMS allows him to manipulate Enton, with EMS what has he shows? Enton Yagamasta. And you can't comprehend, I said in terms of SHARIGAN FEATS, yes they are the same, however their EMS abilities aren't

Doesnt matter, fact is he needed kurama in order to properly armor him and fuse his susanoo sword with bijuudamas (he had to have shot a tbb in order for him to be able to do this). That takes time, saying he did it overnight is like saying all KKG users never trained for their mastery, they just became "good" as soon as they were able to use it.

 

[Omnislash X SageMode]

Madara was not "utilizing the bijuus chakra" in the same way a jinchuuriki does. I agree they both use them as a ninja tool but the method is different therefore the difficulty/effectiveness is different. However disregarding all of that Hashirama still > Madara.

This^ 1. madara couldnt use the nine tails chakra for himself like naruto does and 2. he can only make him attack hashirama..

 

[HadouKage]

Bam, got you...Madara melds his susanoo sword with kurama. Thus he is melding kurama's chakra with his



Then tell me, how can madara master his EMS to perfectly shell kurama if he doesnt even have a kurama to shell....? This is ridiculous. And so you agree that your logic means hashi mastered shinsuusenju as soon as he learned SM, or an even better example of your logic would be that anybody with a KKG who hasnt been shown to master it is already amazing at using it right....? This is what your point suggests U_U



Stop posting that crap i know what the definition of power is... So you once again agree that kabuto is oro's power as well? how naive....

Haku has her own Ideals, for the 50th time ill post it. Just because zabuza influenced her decision doesnt mean that she's his power, do you understand that this point makes absolutely no sense?

@Bold: these definitions fit madara's power over kurama....I dont know why you think this helps you. If you believe in those definitions then you belive that kurama is EMS madara's power, lol.



Doesnt matter, fact is he needed kurama in order to properly armor him and fuse his susanoo sword with bijuudamas (he had to have shot a tbb in order for him to be able to do this). That takes time, saying he did it overnight is like saying all KKG users never trained for their mastery, they just became "good" as soon as they were able to use it.

1. Sigh, and we continue to play dumb games. So going by that logic, the combination of jutsu that all the Kages used against Madara belong to each of the Kage? Without BD there would be no BD slash (keyword BD)
2. You're not doing anything but talking in circles, like I said, until you provide me with manga proof of this, my statement stands
3. You're saying that you know, obviously you don't or you wouldn't disagree with the definition. ZABUZA INFLUENCED HAKU what is the key word in the 5th definition "influence" so going by the definition and that logic ZABUZA IS HAKU'S POWER. Again, stop being redundant :|
4. What doesn't that have to do with Sasuke and Madara having the same EMS ability?

 

[Draphsin]

1. Sigh, and we continue to play dumb games. So going by that logic, the combination of jutsu that all the Kages used against Madara belong to each of the Kage?

lol, they are shinobi with their own ideals, as ive already stated, kurama is used as a tool. He is forced to attack when told to do so. Madara is in complete command of him, are the kage in command of eachother?

2. You're not doing anything but talking in circles, like I said, until you provide me with manga proof of this, my statement stands

I gave you proof of madara's susanoo when he first used EMS. It was nothing compared to what he can do now, you're straight denying it now

3. Hey, I'm not arguing with that. You're saying that you know, obviously you don't or you wouldn't disagree with the definition. ZABUZA INFLUENCED HAKU what is the key word in the 5th definition "influence" so going by the definition and that logic ZABUZA IS HAKU'S POWER. Again, stop being redundant :|

This is stupid....Okay if you wanna believe that haku is zabuza's power then go ahead, but that means you believe that kabuto is oro's power too......(oh, almost forgot about juugo, he's sasuke's power, right?)

If you believe in those definitions then you believe that kurama is EMS madara's power....So that's that

4. What doesn't that have to do with Sasuke and Madara having the same EMS ability?

It took sasuke time to master susanoo, you're saying that madara knew how to make susanoo armor and bijuudama blades as soon as he found kurama, Im using sasuke's susanoo as an example that you need to train in order to effectively use it, especially in conjunction with a bijuu. Regardless if they have the same EMS ability or not.

I also said that if you believe this then you believe that all KKG users are amazing as soon as they awaken their abilities. You're basically saying that madara didnt teach himself how to use susanoo + kurama, but instead he just knew how to do it....This is moronic

 

[HadouKage]

lol, they are shinobi with their own ideals, as ive already stated, kurama is used as a tool. He is forced to attack when told to do so. Madara is in complete command of him, are the kage in command of eachother?



I gave you proof of madara's susanoo when he first used EMS. It was nothing compared to what he can do now, you're straight denying it now



This is stupid....Okay if you wanna believe that haku is zabuza's power then go ahead, but that means you believe that kabuto is oro's power too......

If you believe in those definitions then you believe that kurama is EMS madara's power....So that's that



It took sasuke time to master susanoo, you're saying that madara knew how to make susanoo armor and bijuudama blades as soon as he found kurama, Im using sasuke's susanoo as an example that you need to train in order to effectively use it, especially in conjunction with a bijuu. Regardless if they have the same EMS ability or not.

I also said that if you believe this then you believe that all KKG users are amazing as soon as they awaken their abilities. You're basically saying that madara didnt teach himself how to use susanoo + kurama, but instead he just knew how to do it....This is moronic

1. Don't contradict yourself now.

Bam, got you...Madara melds his susanoo sword with bijuudamas. Thus he is melding kurama's chakra.

You said since Madara melded PS sword with BD then it's his power and I'm giving an example of the Kages doing the same yet you deny this as their individual power(s)

2. And again you stray. You've stated that he has tamed the Kyubi on several occasions, yet cannot provide any manga fact with your speculation. Like I said, I can say Sasuke mastered Enton in a day based on him using Ama so effectively after fighting Bee and Enton against the Raikage. And what does using PS now have to do with anything? All your stating is nothing more than speculation

3. It's not stupid, don't ignore proof that's right in front of you. If so, yes Kabuto must be Oro's power as well going off your logic. And maybe I am not making myself clear, the ability to control the Kyubi is Madara's power, however all of the Kyubi feats are not

4.

Point is we've only seen the beginning of what he can do....And its comparable to madara's first time using susanoo's EMS power, as shown above

First of all, the only thing we've seen from Sasuke in the manga is the Enton Beads. So how in the world can you compare Sasuke's Sussano too Madara? All in all, I just gave you each of the Uchiha's EMS abilities. Logically if anything wouldn't Sasuke better develop Tsukuyomi since it is Itachi's eyes implanted in him?

 

[MrLukyso]

Jeez if Madara caught Hashirama into Tsukuyomi than Madara is stronger than Hashirama, use logic sense ? Tobirama said when he came to battlefield, Madara was Gone and Hashirama was laying on the ground.

Kurama is Madaras power, you can't take that away, it's the same with Jinchuurikis, Edo Tensei and other jutsus.

At any point this is still unknown, so everyone debating on this is just speculating.