Thanks for the reps guys
It's what i'm saying. He didn't trust them because they can easily turn evil and it could endanger the peace of the village, reason why he doesn't trust them but it doesn't mean he hated them. He was just careful and cautious
Probably as much as you hate him
Honestly im sick of hearing whole turn evil due to sharingan argument. Sharingan is powered by strong emotions, love hatred and alike thats true. Of course in a war u would get hatred more then anything else. Out of thousands uchihas only 6 got MS, and only 3 were unable to control it and were taken by the darkness if u will.
Now tobi used this biased statistic and made it sound as if its universal law for uchihas, and as if they invented hatred and darkness. He based his judgement on that. While 3 out of thousands isnt even statistical mistake, so biased argument right there.
So im sorry that whole ur argument and attempt to defend tobirama falls apart right here.
His irrational fear of uchihas and actions against them, not distrust is what lead uchihas wanting the coup.
Geez even orochimaru criticised him on how retarded he was. Isnt that proof enough?
An evil prevails when good man fails to take action, in case of tobi he made bad actions and only caused more crap.
He's persecuted the uchiha on more than one occasion:
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Madara nor the uchiha was a threat and thats what you people keep getting wrong. You think he'd have helped Hashirama build the village, stopped him from killing himself, and done things like this if his intentions were evil? You must be joking.
The potential problem was:
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It doesn't take much to see.
He doesn't consider the uchiha as a part of "The village"
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Which would explain whyHe indirectly exiled them from village affairs [
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].
It's rather clear that Tobirama only sees the uchiha as a threat and enemy [
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] and made the same mistake the elder son of the sage also made, thinking that power was the key to peace [
You must be registered for see links
] [
You must be registered for see links
] but just ended up starting a chain reaction of war and violence. Tobirama is clearly biased and would go as low as to accept rumor as fact [
You must be registered for see links
] "The more they are full of hatred, the more their eyes are powerful". Itachi and shusui proved his theory is wrong and can't be used to generalized the entire uchiha clan. He's in the spotlight and doesn't want to take the blame for everything thats going on currently, making petty excuses. Madara knew Hashirama would fail to deal with him as he is too soft lacks dignity [
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] and allows tobirama to have his way. The guy's clearly a hater and the cause of everything.
Maybe Tobirama did not hate the Uchihas, maybe he did. His actions clearly show that he dislikes Uchihas, and he is mainly to blame for the Uchiha massacre.
OT: Anyone who says that Tobirama was following what his father was trying to do is completely wrong. It's stated right on the page that it was Hashirama who was acting like their father, by trying to make decisions on his own whereas Tobirama was promoting democracy.
Tbh i had no idea you made a Tobirama thread until you mentioned it on my own, so i created this thread without looking at your own. I don't even know what it's talking about XD
Honestly im sick of hearing whole turn evil due to sharingan argument. Sharingan is powered by strong emotions, love hatred and alike thats true. Of course in a war u would get hatred more then anything else. Out of thousands uchihas only 6 got MS, and only 3 were unable to control it and were taken by the darkness if u will.
Now tobi used this biased statistic and made it sound as if its universal law for uchihas, and as if they invented hatred and darkness. He based his judgement on that. While 3 out of thousands isnt even statistical mistake, so biased argument right there.
So im sorry that whole ur argument and attempt to defend tobirama falls apart right here.
His irrational fear of uchihas and actions against them, not distrust is what lead uchihas wanting the coup.
Geez even orochimaru criticised him on how retarded he was. Isnt that proof enough?
An evil prevails when good man fails to take action, in case of tobi he made bad actions and only caused more crap.
The bolded part is where is your error. It's not because of MS or whatever that Uchihas turn evil. It's because of their hatred increased when they experience the loss of a loved one or something similar. Tobirama said he saw this phenomen happening plenty of times and it's not as if all of the one he saw had MS
Because he was bent on revenge for his brother.. But then Hashirama proved to him , that he means peace. The same way Tobirama was about to kill him =]
Also, what Madara said about Tobirama in the end was true. ^_^. He left them a warning.. and they didn't listen... But when they got tired of the segregation.. that even Hashirama knew that Tobirama might do, you fans decide to call them "EVIL".
Where in the last two post of mine did use the word evil ???
And now let me make this one clear if Madara trusted Hashirama's judgement why didn't he follow Hashirama ?? As Hashirama said here Madara can become Second Hokage if he proved his worth but Madara himself was sure he will not be accepted. So was this Tobirama's, Hashirama's or Madara's result of wrong doings ????
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Plus even if Madara was the Uchiha clan's head people decided to trust the senju's was this also the fault of Senju's ??
Moreover Tobirama knew that Uchiha's abilities and its cause which he wanted to use for greater good of the Uchiha clan and the village.
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Plus What you are saying is wrong here if Tobirama wanted to destroy Uchiha's he would have ordered the remaining ninja's and kill all of them when he was the second hokage but it didn't happen in his reign. Uchiha massacre happened when Hiruzen was hokage and roughly after 50+ years after Tobirama died. So where did he hate the Uchiha's ?? more importantly why did Uchiha's decided to act after 50 years ???
He's persecuted the uchiha on more than one occasion:
You must be registered for see images
Madara nor the uchiha was a threat and thats what you people keep getting wrong. You think he'd have helped Hashirama build the village, stopped him from killing himself, and done things like this if his intentions were evil? You must be joking.
The potential problem was:
You must be registered for see images
It doesn't take much to see.
He doesn't consider the uchiha as a part of "The village"
You must be registered for see images
Which would explain whyHe indirectly exiled them from village affairs [
You must be registered for see links
].
It's rather clear that Tobirama only sees the uchiha as a threat and enemy [
You must be registered for see links
] and made the same mistake the elder son of the sage also made, thinking that power was the key to peace [
You must be registered for see links
] [
You must be registered for see links
] but just ended up starting a chain reaction of war and violence. Tobirama is clearly biased and would go as low as to accept rumor as fact [
You must be registered for see links
] "The more they are full of hatred, the more their eyes are powerful". Itachi and shusui proved his theory is wrong and can't be used to generalized the entire uchiha clan. He's in the spotlight and doesn't want to take the blame for everything thats going on currently, making petty excuses. Madara knew Hashirama would fail to deal with him as he is too soft lacks dignity [
You must be registered for see links
] and allows tobirama to have his way. The guy's clearly a hater and the cause of everything.
Tobirama is the blame of everything IMO. You can tell how much he dislikes the Uchiha when he first started talking sasuke. He's a complete ******* and if he would have kept his mouth shut and showed more respect to the Uchiha and Madara thing would most likely be different right now. Madara is no idiot he was absolutely right about tobirama and his intentions.
This is the best post rep will be given.
Btw Bogard at the beginning of your post you made a error. Danzo the Uchiha and that other kid were not apart of team tobirama. They just teamed up for that mission during the war.
Tbh i had no idea you made a Tobirama thread until you mentioned it on my own, so i created this thread without looking at your own. I don't even know what it's talking about XD
The bolded part is where is your error. It's not because of MS or whatever that Uchihas turn evil. It's because of their hatred increased when they experience the loss of a loved one or something similar. Tobirama said he saw this phenomen happening plenty of times and it's not as if all of the one he saw had MS
Well thats exactly my point. Tobirama made no discrimination, in his explanation he was referring mostly to normal sharingan as possessed by evil, and MS as most severe case. But where are those all uchihas possessed by hatred, darkness or evil? The only ones that fit description were izuna, obito. Madara with EMS had a change of heart for a while, so does sasuke now. Itachi and shisui completely broke the stereotype, while having most advanced sharingan aside EMS, were they possed by hatred?.
And others with just 3 tomoe did perfectly fine too, we didnt see them on any rampage or any sign of possession either.
Sharingan is also awakened out of desire to protect as shown with obito and sasuke, is that sign of hatred or evil?
Ur just repeating BS tobirama said, but it has no validity behind it. The whole hatred only works when uchihas have reasons for that, and oppressing them isnt wise. They can also awaken sharingan out of love and to protect.
He's persecuted the uchiha on more than one occasion:
You must be registered for see images
Madara nor the uchiha was a threat and thats what you people keep getting wrong. You think he'd have helped Hashirama build the village, stopped him from killing himself, and done things like this if his intentions were evil? You must be joking.
The potential problem was:
You must be registered for see images
It doesn't take much to see.
He doesn't consider the uchiha as a part of "The village"
You must be registered for see images
Which would explain whyHe indirectly exiled them from village affairs [
You must be registered for see links
].
It's rather clear that Tobirama only sees the uchiha as a threat and enemy [
You must be registered for see links
] and made the same mistake the elder son of the sage also made, thinking that power was the key to peace [
You must be registered for see links
] [
You must be registered for see links
] but just ended up starting a chain reaction of war and violence. Tobirama is clearly biased and would go as low as to accept rumor as fact [
You must be registered for see links
] "The more they are full of hatred, the more their eyes are powerful". Itachi and shusui proved his theory is wrong and can't be used to generalized the entire uchiha clan. He's in the spotlight and doesn't want to take the blame for everything thats going on currently, making petty excuses. Madara knew Hashirama would fail to deal with him as he is too soft lacks dignity [
You must be registered for see links
] and allows tobirama to have his way. The guy's clearly a hater and the cause of everything.
Sadly, its natural that we'd disagree on this issue even though we're friends. So no hard feelings after this point.
I find that your point about Tobirama not accepting Uchiha as apart of the village was simply misinterpretation. He was referring to the whole village in general and how he must make decisions based on all clans. He did consider them apart of the village. Otherwise, he wouldn't give them a job of protecting it. Don't tell me it was like what Orochimaru said, he only did it so people gain bad feelings towards them. That'd be counterproductive. Tobirama made the right call in my opinion.
One misconception of this whole ordeal is that Tobirama gave them that spot so he could keep watch on them. While that is true, people are ignoring the other factors to it. One factor of it is that they were good at it[
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]. He wouldn't have gave them that position if they sucked ass at it. Remember, this is the police force we're talking about. A very important job. Another factor of it is the location of the prison. You can't have a prison in the middle of the village. Doing this would be dangerous. Also, Orochimaru has the wrong idea about this. It would only be natural to move the police headquarters near the prison so the Uchiha could supervise them. I mean, this was the perfect occupation for the Uchiha. Something they could vent their frustrations on.
The biggest factor in my opinion is the trust and faith that goes into giving them such a job. Overall, it was a sign that they had a place in the village and that they had a place in governing it. No doubt the head of the police force had a spot on the Konoha council. You must understand that village and the majority came first in Tobirama's mind[
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]. For the village, electing the Uchiha as its police force was a win-win situation.
Another point I'd like to get across is that Tobirama obviously understood the Uchiha more than everyone[
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][
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]. He understood about the Curse of Hatred, something Madara ultimately suffered from. You cannot deny that the Uchiha are a liability. The two major villains of the series, Obito and Madara, are both Uchiha who have suffered from the Curse of Hatred. He foresaw how they were to be slaughtered for their attempted coup[
You must be registered for see links
]. You can obviously see Tobirama is saddened by this. Proof of him never actually doing that. What a lot of people are also denying is that Madara's will carried through a lot of Uchiha, as seen by Tobirama in the above scan. They're also denying a coup attempted by Setsuna during Tobirama's reign[
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]. As stated in the book, Setsuna was carrying Madara's will.
The thing I find most ridiculous is that Tobirama is somehow the cause for all of this. He's not. Madara is. Or more specifically, the curse of hatred is. Hashirama even agrees that Madara turned evil as a result of his love for Izuna and the promise he couldn't keep[
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]. Madara was a victim to the chemicals going off in his head after Izuna's death[
You must be registered for see links
] and the false preconception that Tobirama would exterminate the clan based off of paranoia[
You must be registered for see links
]. All of this together made him change.
One of the biggest factors for the Uchiha Massacre was the Kyuubi attack[
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] which was cause by Obito, Madara's student.
I would agree that Tobirama shouldn't have generalized the whole Uchiha clan based on a few dissidents, but Tobirama made it clear that a lot carried Madara's will.
Sadly, its natural that we'd disagree on this issue even though we're friends. So no hard feelings after this point.
I find that your point about Tobirama not accepting Uchiha as apart of the village was simply misinterpretation. He was referring to the whole village in general and how he must make decisions based on all clans. He did consider them apart of the village. Otherwise, he wouldn't give them a job of protecting it. Don't tell me it was like what Orochimaru said, he only did it so people gain bad feelings towards them. That'd be counterproductive. Tobirama made the right call in my opinion.
One misconception of this whole ordeal is that Tobirama gave them that spot so he could keep watch on them. While that is true, people are ignoring the other factors to it. One factor of it is that they were good at it[
You must be registered for see links
]. He wouldn't have gave them that position if they sucked ass at it. Remember, this is the police force we're talking about. A very important job. Another factor of it is the location of the prison. You can't have a prison in the middle of the village. Doing this would be dangerous. Also, Orochimaru has the wrong idea about this. It would only be natural to move the police headquarters near the prison so the Uchiha could supervise them. I mean, this was the perfect occupation for the Uchiha. Something they could vent their frustrations on.
The biggest factor in my opinion is the trust and faith that goes into giving them such a job. Overall, it was a sign that they had a place in the village and that they had a place in governing it. No doubt the head of the police force had a spot on the Konoha council. You must understand that village and the majority came first in Tobirama's mind[
You must be registered for see links
]. For the village, electing the Uchiha as its police force was a win-win situation.
Another point I'd like to get across is that Tobirama obviously understood the Uchiha more than everyone[
You must be registered for see links
][
You must be registered for see links
]. He understood about the Curse of Hatred, something Madara ultimately suffered from. You cannot deny that the Uchiha are a liability. The two major villains of the series, Obito and Madara, are both Uchiha who have suffered from the Curse of Hatred. He foresaw how they were to be slaughtered for their attempted coup[
You must be registered for see links
]. You can obviously see Tobirama is saddened by this. Proof of him never actually doing that. What a lot of people are also denying is that Madara's will carried through a lot of Uchiha, as seen by Tobirama in the above scan. They're also denying a coup attempted by Setsuna during Tobirama's reign[
You must be registered for see links
]. As stated in the book, Setsuna was carrying Madara's will.
The thing I find most ridiculous is that Tobirama is somehow the cause for all of this. He's not. Madara is. Or more specifically, the curse of hatred is. Hashirama even agrees that Madara turned evil as a result of his love for Izuna and the promise he couldn't keep[
You must be registered for see links
]. Madara was a victim to the chemicals going off in his head after Izuna's death[
You must be registered for see links
] and the false preconception that Tobirama would exterminate the clan based off of paranoia[
You must be registered for see links
]. All of this together made him change.
One of the biggest factors for the Uchiha Massacre was the Kyuubi attack[
You must be registered for see links
] which was cause by Obito, Madara's student.
I would agree that Tobirama shouldn't have generalized the whole Uchiha clan based on a few dissidents, but Tobirama made it clear that a lot carried Madara's will.
@ red, tobirama disagrees as he refers to the uchiha clan as something separate from the village:
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@ Green: it is primarily the hokage's duty to protect the village. He was giving them his dirty work[
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] If he moved them out of the village without considering they're feelings but only what he see's as justice, it shows his a bit more of his true nature.
@Purple: i guess they were just frustrated animals that needed something to kill right? [
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] [
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]
@ bold: [
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] No doubt, but the uchiha weren't considered a part of the village in his view, as already established.
@ yellow: Liability? False. They only became an issue when he forced them out of the village, in a sense he quarantined them without considering their feelings and that was the cause of the revolt. Unless your cold hearted, you would realize this. Do you think its easy to have your clan (family, friends, ect) and brother completely ripped from you? Well tobirama didn't care. Madara only left the village because of tobirama's potential to downgrade his clan; If it wasn't for that, Madara would've been hokage and stayed in the village and obito would've died that day under the rock and there would be no 4th shinobi war, nor would Naruto lose his parents, not to mention Sasuke and itachi would still have their family and clan. Madara was spot on with that. Now the truth is revealed, there's no hiding conical facts.
Setsuna had a right, why?
-They were exiled from the village
-It was obvious to everyone in the clan that Tobirama disliked and was suspicious of them
-Tobirama broke the truce to treat them with equity as the rest of the village.
@ yellow underline: Tobirama looked expressionless as always.
@ last paragraph: No dear, Tobirama is the casuse of:
-> The uchiha revolt
-> The uchiha massacre
-> Sasuke and itachi loosing their family (started their feud and resulted in death)
-> Itachi's name to be stained
-> Madara to leave the village (resulting in him meeting obito, so technically he's the cause of naruto's parents death)
-> Hiruzens death (creating the edo tensei)
-> Danzo to get his hands on those sharingan
-> Skillful ninja like shisui to die
-> the current shinobi war
@ red, tobirama disagrees as he refers to the uchiha clan as something separate from the village:
You must be registered for see images
@ Green: it is primarily the hokage's duty to protect the village. He was giving them his dirty work[
You must be registered for see links
] If he moved them out of the village without considering they're feelings but only what he see's as justice, it shows his a bit more of his true nature.
@Purple: i guess they were just frustrated animals that needed something to kill right? [
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] [
You must be registered for see links
]
@ bold: [
You must be registered for see links
] No doubt, but the uchiha weren't considered a part of the village in his view, as already established.
@ yellow: Liability? False. They only became an issue when he forced them out of the village, in a sense he quarantined them without considering their feelings and that was the cause of the revolt. Unless your cold hearted, you would realize this. Do you think its easy to have your clan (family, friends, ect) and brother completely ripped from you? Well tobirama didn't care. Madara only left the village because of tobirama's potential to downgrade his clan; If it wasn't for that, Madara would've been hokage and stayed in the village and obito would've died that day under the rock and there would be no 4th shinobi war, nor would Naruto lose his parents, not to mention Sasuke and itachi would still have their family and clan. Madara was spot on with that. Now the truth is revealed, there's no hiding conical facts.
Setsuna had a right, why?
-They were exiled from the village
-It was obvious to everyone in the clan that Tobirama disliked and was suspicious of them
-Tobirama broke the truce to treat them with equity as the rest of the village.
@ yellow underline: Tobirama looked expressionless as always.
@ last paragraph: No dear, Tobirama is the casuse of:
-> The uchiha revolt
-> The uchiha massacre
-> Sasuke and itachi loosing their family (started their feud and resulted in death)
-> Itachi's name to be stained
-> Madara to leave the village (resulting in him meeting obito, so technically he's the cause of naruto's parents death)
-> Hiruzens death (creating the edo tensei)
-> Danzo to get his hands on those sharingan
-> Skillful ninja like shisui to die
-> the current shinobi war
@Bold: Half of this is on the basis that Madara would become Hokage. Frankly, Madara would have never became Hokage[
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] unless you're suggesting that you'd prefer Hashirama to deprive them of their liberty to choose their leader. As you can see in the bottom middle panel, the Uchiha even preferred that Hashirama lead. It wasn't Tobirama who drove him away from the village. It was his skewed reasoning as result of the curse of hatred. Can't you see this? Everything that Tobirama did was a result of Madara turning evil[
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]. I don't know if you know the threat everyone saw in Madara. He did cause this war indirectly and he caused the 9 tails attack indirectly. And you say it all could have been avoided if Hashirama wouldn't have taken the opinions of the people into account and elect Madara. It wasn't just Madara either. Quite a few, including Setsuna, were like Madara[
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]. Simply, they are a liability. Its a biological fact. In fact, he suggests that they destroyed themselves[
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]
I believe you're still misinterpreting his dialogue to make it seem like they weren't apart of a village. They were and Tobirama considered them to be. That's the whole reason he gave them that spot. Tobirama's main priority was the village as a whole[
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] and what would benefit it as a whole. Allowing them to be the police force undoubtedly would and gave him the ability to quell the attempts of another Madara to take control[
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]. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this one lol.
You can disregard that whole last paragraph if you want. But, what is important is that we must draw a line as to whose fault this is. The best thing I can propose is that Madara was wrong for overreacting and it was wrong for Tobirama to single out the Uchiha. I think its ridiculous to blame him for everything though.
OT: Anyone who says that Tobirama was following what his father was trying to do is completely wrong. It's stated right on the page that it was Hashirama who was acting like their father, by trying to make decisions on his own whereas Tobirama was promoting democracy.
LAst time I checked.. Hashirama's dad didn't want a truce with the Uchiha. . And Tobirama supported democracy? Oh yeaa electing Hiruzen as the Hokage. Horraah for false-idolized democracy of tobirama.
