Sasuke DOES NOT HAVE TSUKUYOMI!! ABSOLUTE PROOF!! HUGE MISCONCEPTION!

[thegame]

Exactly my point. And never has the manga ever said anything about Susanoo having specific requirements(Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi) OR Sasuke having Tsukuyomi.

Danzo was simply implying that Sasuke's "MS Genjutsu" was weaker than "Itachi's Tsukuyomi", but people will get the wrong idea 99% of the time.

By the way, if an MS user does not have the ability to manipulate the Time and Space within his Visual Genjutsu, he does not have Tsukuyomi!

Tsukuyomi is the manipulation of Time and Space within a Genjutsu.

Itachi can put out the flames of Amaterasu, does that mean he has Kagutsuchi? NO!

Only the full Shape Manipulation of Amaterasu can be classified as the technique known as Kagutsuchi.

Get my drift?

I do get you, but why are you bluntly avoiding the evidence I just put? It is 100 % clear that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee. No other genjutsu would have those visiual effects in the manga. Frankly no other genjutsu would affect a jinchuriki for that long.

You say Itachi did not have blaze release, this is where you are wrong. Blaze release is the exact same as stopping amaterasu. Itachi was also able to control the flames and move them around. He did that versus Sasuke. Surely he did not use it in the same way as Sasuke did. And you problably didn't read my last comment, where I said it's the mechanism of the MS that leads to the jutsu. This mechanism leads to both tsukuyomi and blaze release. It's the exact same principle. The black flames are said to burn for 7 days. Altering the time, you can stop them faster. The shape of a flame cannot be controlled with normal means. Controlling the shape of the jutsu. These 2 is without doubt the same for both blaze release and tsukuyomi, thus my conclusion:

The mechanism creating the effects in blaze release and tsukuyomi are the same. And those mechanisms (manipulation of time and shape), are what the MS gives.

You shouldn't place much meaning in the name of a jutsu. Shinobi keep develop new jutsu from older jutsus. This is the exact same thing. Sasuke realized it, when he wanted to save Karin more than anything.

 

[The God of Wind]

I do get you, but why are you bluntly avoiding the evidence I just put? It is 100 % clear that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee. No other genjutsu would have those visiual effects in the manga. Frankly no other genjutsu would affect a jinchuriki for that long.

You say Itachi did not have blaze release, this is where you are wrong. Blaze release is the exact same as stopping amaterasu. Itachi was also able to control the flames and move them around. He did that versus Sasuke. Surely he did not use it in the same way as Sasuke did. And you problably didn't read my last comment, where I said it's the mechanism of the MS that leads to the jutsu. This mechanism leads to both tsukuyomi and blaze release. It's the exact same principle. The black flames are said to burn for 7 days. Altering the time, you can stop them faster. The shape of a flame cannot be controlled with normal means. Controlling the shape of the jutsu. These 2 is without doubt the same for both blaze release and tsukuyomi, thus my conclusion:

The mechanism creating the effects in blaze release and tsukuyomi are the same. And those mechanisms (manipulation of time and shape), are what the MS gives.

You shouldn't place much meaning in the name of a jutsu. Shinobi keep develop new jutsu from older jutsus. This is the exact same thing. Sasuke realized it, when he wanted to save Karin more than anything.

@ Bold

That is where YOU are wrong.

Spoiler

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That is Itachi's right eye, his Amaterasu eye.

Itachi is casting Amaterasu, although it seems as if he is keeping the flames active as he turns his head, in order to catch Sasuke's wing.

Spoiler

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Sasuke uses Amaterasu from his left eye.

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And he uses Kagutsuchi from his right eye!


There is definitely a similarity behind the manipulation like you said. Though, that doesn't change the fact that Tsukuyomi and Kagutsuchi are 2 distinct and separate Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu.


And the fact still stands that Sasuke does not have a weaker form of Tsukuyomi.

Tsukuyomi grants full control over Visual Genjutsu, if the user doesn't have full control, he does not have Tsukuyomi.

 

[thegame]

@ Bold

That is where YOU are wrong.

Spoiler

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That is Itachi's right eye, his Amaterasu eye.

Itachi is casting Amaterasu, although it seems as if he is keeping the flames active as he turns his head, in order to catch Sasuke's wing.

Spoiler

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Sasuke uses Amaterasu from his left eye.

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And he uses Kagutsuchi from his right eye!


There is definitely a similarity behind the manipulation like you said. Though, that doesn't change the fact that Tsukuyomi and Kagutsuchi are 2 distinct and separate Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu.


And the fact still stands that Sasuke does not have a weaker form of Tsukuyomi.

Tsukuyomi grants full control over Visual Genjutsu, if the user doesn't have full control, he does not have Tsukuyomi.

I am not wrong, because there are no complete proofs in Itachi-Sasuke's fight. However, if you look better, Itachi has both eyes open as he do it. Not only is he creating amaterasu, he is also controlling the shape of the flames he creates. That was my point, and you proved it with that page, thank you.
My 2nd point was also that the way they control it, is different. Itachi uses both eyes simultaneously, as you just showed.
Sasuke uses each eye separately.

Now, where this gets tricky, is when Sasuke uses blaze release, he manipulates not the flames created with his left eye, but the flames created by Susanoo. It is hopefully clear to everyone that his Susanoo can also use amaterasu as a shield. This is seen several times, so I need not quote pages. Sasuke uses only his right eye to control this armor. He calls it blaze release, however, as I already proved the concept for tsukuyomi is the same as the concept for blaze release.

Besides tsukuyomi he uses with his right eye (I proved that, no doubt.), and he uses blaze release with susanoo combined with his right eye. So perhaps there are another reason, which is due to susanoo or whatever, it's not really important.

 

[The God of Wind]

I am not wrong, because there are no complete proofs in Itachi-Sasuke's fight. However, if you look better, Itachi has both eyes open as he do it. Not only is he creating amaterasu, he is also controlling the shape of the flames he creates. That was my point, and you proved it with that page, thank you.
My 2nd point was also that the way they control it, is different. Itachi uses both eyes simultaneously, as you just showed.
Sasuke uses each eye separately.

Now, where this gets tricky, is when Sasuke uses blaze release, he manipulates not the flames created with his left eye, but the flames created by Susanoo. It is hopefully clear to everyone that his Susanoo can also use amaterasu as a shield. This is seen several times, so I need not quote pages. Sasuke uses only his right eye to control this armor. He calls it blaze release, however, as I already proved the concept for tsukuyomi is the same as the concept for blaze release.

Besides tsukuyomi he uses with his right eye (I proved that, no doubt.), and he uses blaze release with susanoo combined with his right eye. So perhaps there are another reason, which is due to susanoo or whatever, it's not really important.

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Itachi isn't using his other eye, absolutely not!!

Do you see the veins in their eyes?

Whenever an MS jutsu activates from their eye, the veins in that eye tighten and show clearly..........

 

[avenged sevenfold]

He has Tsukuyomi. End of. Tough crap. Full stop.

 

[thegame]

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Itachi isn't using his other eye, absolutely not!!

Do you see the veins in their eyes?

Whenever an MS jutsu activates from their eye, the veins in that eye tighten and show clearly..........

Well, perhaps I am wrong, I didn't look closely enough. Point taken. However, there is also a difference, on how intense the jutsu is compared to the veins. Well in the anime, the flame is "hunting" Sasuke, but what really is happening, is just constant creation of amaterasu, so you could say it's just Itachi's eye hunting him.

Anyhow, it's not really important, for what we were discussing, but you just ignore the essence of what I write in every post, since you can't disprove any of the points. Not to mention that your entire thread has been disproved...

 

[shelke]

I have addressed all your points in my thread. It's obvious you didn't read it. Sasuke is shown to use Genjutsu from both his MS eyes which causes him the same type of strain resulting in him holding his eyes afterwards, which proves that it isn't Tsukuyomi because that can only exist in one eye!

Why didn't Kishi say it during an interview? Because he didn't feel the need to, when it is shown in the manga itself that Sasuke uses 2 distinct techniques from his eyes. He didn't think that people would be stupid enough to ignore visual and verbal evidence from the manga. The manga is the law!

Also, why would Sasuke just use a random Shape Manipulating jutsu from his Right Mangekyou eye and say the name of a Shinto Deity out loud? Hasn't it occurred to you that it is a real jutsu of his MS?

I have read all of your points. I am not some jackass who charges into the thread without reading through the whole thing. What are you talking about? The point here is MS only, as that is the Doujutsu in question here. Not 3T Sharingan. That is a weak argument.

Here is an interesting link:

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- Amaterasu becomes Tsukuyomi.

Here the terms' meanings are clearly explained: Tsukuyomi/Moon = One MS eye. Amaterasu/Sun = SEcond MS eye, which varies for all users. Now the term moon implies illusion/genjutsu to begin with. Moon has been associated with illusions in several mythos, predominately Shinto Religion. The full moon references are present in many religions etc. Now why would Kishimoto call it moon, and not something else? Why reduce it to a simple Illusion, when Itachi holds a lot of mastery over it?

He hasn't denied anything. You are reading too much into this. 3T usage shouldn't be compared with MS or EMS, as that is just simple genjutsu which all Sharingan users possess.

 

[The God of Wind]

Well, perhaps I am wrong, I didn't look closely enough. Point taken. However, there is also a difference, on how intense the jutsu is compared to the veins. Well in the anime, the flame is "hunting" Sasuke, but what really is happening, is just constant creation of amaterasu, so you could say it's just Itachi's eye hunting him.

Anyhow, it's not really important, for what we were discussing, but you just ignore the essence of what I write in every post, since you can't disprove any of the points. Not to mention that your entire thread has been disproved...

Sorry, but no. The manga has never said that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, never. On that fact alone, this thread wins. Plus, the manga has shown and explicitly stated through Sasuke and Cee that Sasuke's second eye technique is Enton: Kagutsuchi.

This thread completely disproves the myth that Sasuke has or ever had Tsukuyomi.

 

[Orochimaruofthesound]

Sorry, but no. The manga has never said that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, never. On that fact alone, this thread wins. Plus, the manga has shown and explicitly stated through Sasuke and Cee that Sasuke's second eye technique is Enton: Kagutsuchi.

This thread completely disproves the myth that Sasuke has or ever had Tsukuyomi.

is blaze Release kagetsuchi and Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama the fact there is 2 means its kekkei genkei

 

[The God of Wind]

I have read all of your points. I am not some jackass who charges into the thread without reading through the whole thing. What are you talking about? The point here is MS only, as that is the Doujutsu in question here. Not 3T Sharingan. That is a weak argument.

Here is an interesting link:

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- Amaterasu becomes Tsukuyomi.

Here the terms' meanings are clearly explained: Tsukuyomi/Moon = One MS eye. Amaterasu/Sun = SEcond MS eye, which varies for all users. Now the term moon implies illusion/genjutsu to begin with. Moon has been associated with illusions in several mythos, predominately Shinto Religion. The full moon references are present in many religions etc. Now why would Kishimoto call it moon, and not something else? Why reduce it to a simple Illusion, when Itachi holds a lot of mastery over it?

He hasn't denied anything. You are reading too much into this. 3T usage shouldn't be compared with MS or EMS, as that is just simple genjutsu which all Sharingan users possess.

Bold makes absolutely no sense at all!

BTW, ever since Sasuke awakened his MS, all his Visual Genjutsu have been amplified by it! That is why the image of his Susanoo appears inside that "3T Sharingan Genjutsu" he uses on Cee.

Further evidence indicating this in the manga is the fact that Obito, with his mask on, never needed to show the pattern of his MS while freely using his MS Ninjutsu(Kamui) and Visual Genjutsu.

 

[Orochimaruofthesound]

Sorry, but no. The manga has never said that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, never. On that fact alone, this thread wins. Plus, the manga has shown and explicitly stated through Sasuke and Cee that Sasuke's second eye technique is Enton: Kagutsuchi.

This thread completely disproves the myth that Sasuke has or ever had Tsukuyomi.

Your thread has disproved nothing except for your credibility. you have rejected any and all evidence that goes your theory. You have insulted everyone that has said anything against your theory theory. you act like child. you've lost.

 

[shelke]

Bold makes absolutely no sense at all!

BTW, ever since Sasuke awakened his MS, all his Visual Genjutsu have been amplified by it! That is why the image of his Susanoo appears inside that "3T Sharingan Genjutsu" he uses on Cee.

Further evidence indicating this in the manga is the fact that Obito, with his mask on, never needed to show the pattern of his MS while freely using his MS Ninjutsu(Kamui) and Visual Genjutsu.

Why doesn't it make sense? The manga borrows a lot from Shinto myth. For example Amaterasu is Susano'o's sister, and Tsukuyomi is also a deity. Amaterasu has a wolf form and depicted with flames. The latter is related to Moon and moon itself is aligned with illusion. If you don't understand Shinto Mythos and Kishimoto's usage for these Doujutsus, then this thread shouldn't have been made.

Which proves what? I also have a theory that Obito used his Tsukuyumi to entrap Mizukage, as he was a perfect Jinchuriki, I can't see any other Genjutsu working on him. Senju Dna made it last long as MS puts an immense strain on the body. 3T usage on a Perfect Jinchurki wouldn't even make any sense.

Regardless, this moon reference and the Selection of 'TRINE' Gods/Deities from Shinto also backs up this fact as both of them were linked with Susano'o. Why didn't Kishimoto use other deity names? Take Pein's bodies. All of them follow the EXACT same properties of the rebirth paths. Albeit the original are divided into 24 forms, their actual branching points are 6. Read into this part of the argument as well. As original names themselves hold the key here.

 

[The God of Wind]

Why doesn't it make sense? The manga borrows a lot from Shinto myth. For example Amaterasu is Susano'o's sister, and Tsukuyomi is also a deity. Amaterasu has a wolf form and depicted with flames. The latter is related to Moon and moon itself is aligned with illusion. If you don't understand Shinto Mythos and Kishimoto's usage for these Doujutsus, then this thread shouldn't have been made.

Which proves what? I also have a theory that Obito used his Tsukuyumi to entrap Mizukage, as he was a perfect Jinchuriki, I can't see any other Genjutsu working on him. Senju Dna made it last long as MS puts an immense strain on the body. 3T usage on a Perfect Jinchurki wouldn't even make any sense.

Regardless, this moon reference and the Selection of 'TRINE' Gods/Deities from Shinto also backs up this fact as both of them were linked with Susano'o. Why didn't Kishimoto use other deity names? Take Pein's bodies. All of them follow the EXACT same properties of the rebirth paths. Albeit the original are divided into 24 forms, their actual branching points are 6. Read into this part of the argument as well. As original names themselves hold the key here.

So you actually believe that Obito has Tsukuyomi and Kamui in the same eye?

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BTW, my point was that if a person has 3T active, doesn't mean he can't use his MS jutsu, except for Amaterasu.

 

[thegame]

Sorry, but no. The manga has never said that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, never. On that fact alone, this thread wins. Plus, the manga has shown and explicitly stated through Sasuke and Cee that Sasuke's second eye technique is Enton: Kagutsuchi.

This thread completely disproves the myth that Sasuke has or ever had Tsukuyomi.

... I already proved it, bro. And reading most of your other answers in the thread, I could post your bluntly childish claim back at you

Spoiler

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.

You say that the manga has never said it? You see, Itachi's tsukuyomi is special. It's extremely powerful, thus you cannot really call any jutsu of less power by the same name. It's almost comparable to the difference or should I say in-deference in chidori and raikiri. Anyhow, you point with Cee is? It's not MS he uses, besides he uses both eyes to cast the genjutsu, your point on that part is invalid, as I already said countless times.

More importantly your greatest misconception, is that you say, that Enton: Kagutsuchi is a technique used by just his eye. No it isn't. He simply uses his eye to manipulate the Amaterasu armor around Susanoo. Did you see Sasuke use this without Susanoo?

There is no myth. Kishi has shown us with the manga, that Sasuke is fully capable of using both techniques. You are just arguing, because you don't want to admit mistakes or go revise your own beliefs. Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree, however, as I can see in this thread, the majority of the readers clearly disagrees with you. Though, you will just have to wait for the next databook, to see if Sasuke is listed under tsukuyomi, or not, till then, no you have proved nothing with these pointless arguments about 3-tomoe genjutsu or whatever Danzo didn't say about blaze release (I never understood your point there).

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

There is no proof he does not have it with ems

Actually there has to be proof that he has

by your logic he might have Wood style cuz the manga never Said he did not have it

Or the rinnengan in that matter

 

[The God of Wind]

... I already proved it, bro. And reading most of your other answers in the thread, I could post your bluntly childish claim back at you

Spoiler

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.

You say that the manga has never said it? You see, Itachi's tsukuyomi is special. It's extremely powerful, thus you cannot really call any jutsu of less power by the same name. It's almost comparable to the difference or should I say in-deference in chidori and raikiri. Anyhow, you point with Cee is? It's not MS he uses, besides he uses both eyes to cast the genjutsu, your point on that part is invalid, as I already said countless times.

More importantly your greatest misconception, is that you say, that Enton: Kagutsuchi is a technique used by just his eye. No it isn't. He simply uses his eye to manipulate the Amaterasu armor around Susanoo. Did you see Sasuke use this without Susanoo?

There is no myth. Kishi has shown us with the manga, that Sasuke is fully capable of using both techniques. You are just arguing, because you don't want to admit mistakes or go revise your own beliefs. Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree, however, as I can see in this thread, the majority of the readers clearly disagrees with you. Though, you will just have to wait for the next databook, to see if Sasuke is listed under tsukuyomi, or not, till then, no you have proved nothing with these pointless arguments about 3-tomoe genjutsu or whatever Danzo didn't say about blaze release (I never understood your point there).

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[shelke]

What the **** is up with that image of yours? Why are you insulting people? You didn't answer anything and are resorting to petty insults. Why? That shows your weak stance on this. You disregarded the whole post and picked a theory I came up with, which I am not even passing it off as a fact. You are immature, man.

 

[htmwall]

when we see sasuke use tsukiyomi in the manga,i will agree fully with you otherwise no he doesn't.
plus a fact that itachi used his tsukiyomi the day after he activated his MS at the age of 13(after shisui's death)and he didn't take too much practice for it,but he still managed to use it effectively manipulating the time in the genjutsu,while all what we have seen from sasuke(even using his MS for longer periods)are a couple of genjutsu that their power got ampified because sasuke awakened his MS,you know the thing that tobirama mentioned that uchiha powers go up when they lose someone close.

 

[The God of Wind]

What the **** is up with that image of yours? Why are you insulting people? You didn't answer anything and are resorting to petty insults. Why? That shows your weak stance on this. You disregarded the whole post and picked a theory I came up with, which I am not even passing it off as a fact. You are immature, man.

If you keep spouting non sense, how am I to respond? Tsukuyomi becomes Amaterasu?(Moon becomes the Sun)? How is that even relevant?

 

[shelke]

If you keep spouting non sense, how am I to respond? Tsukuyomi becomes Amaterasu?(Moon becomes the Sun)? How is that even relevant?

That is not relevant? You are posting quite the third-grade stuck up rubbish now. The only person belching out nonsense, is you. I have told you to look into Shinto alignments, you call that nonsense. I have shown you this scan with clear cut Yin/Yang and light/darkness associations, you call that nonsense. You disregard Databook as nonsense. But you are right? Yeah, sure.