Oro could have and should have done this before

Floydical

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I saw another thread on this matter and responded to it, but I wanted to bring all my ideas together on the matter and create my own thread on this issue. It ran a little long, so if you want the synopsis, skip to the last paragraph.

My issue is in regard to Oro implementing this plan now, when he clearly could have done it long ago, ie when he was actually alive for the first time. We know for a fact that Oro had this plan all figured out before Sasuke killed him, simply because he took the time to write the whole plan down on a scroll and store it in a secret room that not even Kabuto knew about. He did this all BEFORE Sasuke defeated him. This means he had planned the idea for some time and knew it would be successful if implemented.

Now we can't say for sure if he had this plan in part 1, but I think its safe to saw that he had it ready in early part 2 since he died relatively early in that storyline. So that means Oro had ample time to implement this plan between the start of part 2 and when he planned to take Sasuke's body. So why would he not take the risk of reviving his arms at this time and give himself a much better chance to beat Sasuke if in fact Sasuke resisted? Why would he wait to restore his arms until after taking over Sasuke when he was already in such a weakened state to begin with? To me, there is no logical answer, other than the fact that Kishi was saving this for the war or hadn't come up with the storyline yet. But as a plot-line for Oro, it makes no sense to do this now.

Some people have said that he waited this long because he didn't have the mask that he needed, but that makes no sense because of how easily he obtained it here. We know that the Uzumaki building they visited was outside of the village, so Oro could have retrieved the mask at ANY TIME without fear of being detected by the leaf. Not only that, but he could have revived the Hokage ANYWHERE, not just in the Uchiha hideout, and store them for later. We know for a fact that Edo's can be stored for an extended period in their coffins, so why not store them for a very long time, perhaps years?

Another argument is that since the Sound village was disbanded and Oro lost an ally in the Sand, that he did not have the military power to defeat the leaf EVEN WITH the revived Kage. But again, why not restore your arms AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and store them until you took over Sasuke and prepare a small army for battle? It makes no sense at all.

Here are a couple good explanations I have heard for this:

Because he didnt want kabuto to know how to summon them. This was probally his insurance policy against kabuto or anyone else that threatened him.
There is probably a trust issue at work here. Orochimaru has to sacrifice himself and someone must restrain a body for him to inhabit. Kabuto might just let Orochimaru perish rather than assist. Sasuke needed Orochimaru to summon the Hokage so there was mutual advantage.
The insurance policy against Kabuto is a good idea, but why not simply implement this plan ALONE and never tell Kabuto about it? Moreover, why can't he survive this on his own? I mean am I missing something or is simply body shedding enough to survive this?:

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Why even bother with the Zetsu clone? Oro has shown ample examples of surviving wounds like this by using body shedding alone!

My major point here is that from everything we know, there is no reason that Oro could not have implemented this plan all by himself at any time as soon as he found the secret on the matter. He had hundreds of sacrifices ready to go and did not need the Uchiha shrine to revive the kage, he could have done that anywhere. In addition, he knew the Mask was hidden outside of the village, well within his reach, and had body shedding to survive a fatal would to the stomach. There is no reason for him not to implement this plan, power himself up in order to compete with Sasuke, and revive and store the Kage for later in order to salvage his plan to destroy the leaf somewhere else down the line. I honestly feel that this whole plot-line is very out of place and has only come about now because either it works better with the story or Kishi hadn't thought of it yet.

Thoughts, opinions, comments, concerns?
 

Vandenre1ch

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He was planning on taking Sasuke's body before he took action. Not to mention he wasnt at full power along with Jiraiya constantly on his trail. The risk were too high.
 

blazekev90

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So you expected him to re-enter the village, armless and all to try this, knowing the village would be fully aware of his presence.
 

Ero sennin jiraiya

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I mentioned this in another thread, but he couldn't do it before because the mask was located in Konoha, and he was a wanted criminal. He was weakened and it would have made it difficult for him to do so. Not only that but he can only use his body transfer jutsu once every three years, and that was essential for getting his arms back from the reaper, as if he couldn't transfer bodies he would end up sealed in the reaper along with his arms.

He had a small window where he could have done it before he tried to capture Sasuke but like I said he was weakened and the mask was in Konoha.
 

Floydical

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So you expected him to re-enter the village, armless and all to try this, knowing the village would be fully aware of his presence.
But the building was outside of the village. This means it was outside the zone of detection. See here:





I mentioned this in another thread, but he couldn't do it before because the mask was located in Konoha, and he was a wanted criminal. He was weakened and it would have made it difficult for him to do so. Not only that but he can only use his body transfer jutsu once every three years, and that was essential for getting his arms back from the reaper, as if he couldn't transfer bodies he would end up sealed in the reaper along with his arms.

He had a small window where he could have done it before he tried to capture Sasuke but like I said he was weakened and the mask was in Konoha.
Again, the building was outside of Konoha, not in it. And what does being weakened have anything to do with this? All the strength he would need would he enough to get himself to the location. He could have even delayed the revival of the Kage if it would have been too much trouble.

What does the body transfer have to do with anything? He didn't need body transfer to survive that, only body shedding. Please explain to me WHY he needed to actually transfer bodies to survive that? He could have simply restored his arms there and use body transfer somewhere else down the line.
 

Ero sennin jiraiya

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But the building was outside of the village. This means it was outside the zone of detection. See here:







Again, the building was outside of Konoha, not in it. And what does being weakened have anything to do with this? All the strength he would need would he enough to get himself to the location. He could have even delayed the revival of the Kage if it would have been too much trouble.

What does the body transfer have to do with anything? He didn't need body transfer to survive that, only body shedding. Please explain to me WHY he needed to actually transfer bodies to survive that? He could have simply restored his arms there and use body transfer somewhere else down the line.
Either way the building was nearby. If I was him I wouldn't risk going anywhere near Konoha for a while until I was not in terrible shape.

It looks like the me that he didn't just shed his skin, but transfered into a zetsu. He had Suigetsu hold a zetsu down so that he could do it. Considering this is how he did it in the manga there really isn't any proof that he could of just shedded his skin, while i'll acknowledge it as a possibility.

He may have not done it back then for a different reason. Like perhaps he didn't know about the mask? Remember when Hiruzen used the tech on Orochimaru? Oro didn't even know about the technique. Hiruzen said "I'm going to use a technique that even you don't know" meaning Orochimaru didn't have any knowledge of it. He very well could have found out about it later on after doing research, and that's why he didn't do it right away.

If my body transfer theory is correct, that would explain this. If you'd rather say it's a plot hole that's your choice though. I'd rather logically think about it and come up with an explanation...
 

blazekev90

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But the building was outside of the village. This means it was outside the zone of detection. See here:







Again, the building was outside of Konoha, not in it. And what does being weakened have anything to do with this? All the strength he would need would he enough to get himself to the location. He could have even delayed the revival of the Kage if it would have been too much trouble.

What does the body transfer have to do with anything? He didn't need body transfer to survive that, only body shedding. Please explain to me WHY he needed to actually transfer bodies to survive that? He could have simply restored his arms there and use body transfer somewhere else down the line.
Most villages have barriers set up, I believe the leaf had one as well. Pein mentioned this before invading the village if I'm not mistaken. Also, upon using the Mask, Orochimaru would have needed a sacrifice. After waiting for Sasuke to arrive, it was too late. He probably was expecting to have a new (perfect vessel) by than. However, that didn't work, so he had to resort to using a dub. Part started with his basically in the same situation, but as soon as the time came for his to switch bodies, Sasuke attacked him. Orochimaru wasn't expecting this attack, as they came to a agreement. Even if he did have a small idea of Sasuke turning, he thought nothing of it, as he still was able to leave his defenseless in their altercation. But once again he underestimated Sharingan. I think was him simply underestimating every and overestimating himself.
 

Floydical

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Either way the building was nearby. If I was him I wouldn't risk going anywhere near Konoha for a while until I was not in terrible shape.

It looks like the me that he didn't just shed his skin, but transfered into a zetsu. He had Suigetsu hold a zetsu down so that he could do it. Considering this is how he did it in the manga there really isn't any proof that he could of just shedded his skin, while i'll acknowledge it as a possibility.

He may have not done it back then for a different reason. Like perhaps he didn't know about the mask? Remember when Hiruzen used the tech on Orochimaru? Oro didn't even know about the technique. Hiruzen said "I'm going to use a technique that even you don't know" meaning Orochimaru didn't have any knowledge of it. He very well could have found out about it later on after doing research, and that's why he didn't do it right away.

If my body transfer theory is correct, that would explain this. If you'd rather say it's a plot hole that's your choice though. I'd rather logically think about it and come up with an explanation...
Considering his life depended on it, yes he should have taken the risk. He should have realized that Sasuke would resist and should have known that getting his arms back would have been insurance to overcoming Sasuke. Considering the pain he was always in and the power that was taken from him, it would have been worth the risk especially since it was not within the detection zone of the Village. He coudn't wait any longer to body transfer when Sasuke came to kill him so I think it would have been well worth the risk for him to go to Konoha's border as soon as he came up with the plan. He could have easily done so early in part 2, when he was strong enough to make the trip and considering he had a strong need to get his arms back.

I do have an explanation for it. Either Kishi did not come up the idea until now, or he saved it for the war.

Again, its clear to me that Body Shedding would have been plenty adequate to save him, considering what it has healed him of in the past. And to clarify, I made it clear that I thought he only knew about this in part 2, I don't think he had any knowledge of this in Part 1.

did anybody see this thanks
[video=youtube;7p_FjTeUzkI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p_FjTeUzkI&feature=player_embedded[/video]
YW :). Too bad Toonami isn't as good now as it used to be.
 

Ero sennin jiraiya

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Considering his life depended on it, yes he should have taken the risk. He should have realized that Sasuke would resist and should have known that getting his arms back would have been insurance to overcoming Sasuke. Considering the pain he was always in and the power that was taken from him, it would have been worth the risk especially since it was not within the detection zone of the Village. He coudn't wait any longer to body transfer when Sasuke came to kill him so I think it would have been well worth the risk for him to go to Konoha's border as soon as he came up with the plan. He could have easily done so early in part 2, when he was strong enough to make the trip and considering he had a strong need to get his arms back.

I do have an explanation for it. Either Kishi did not come up the idea until now, or he saved it for the war.

Again, its clear to me that Body Shedding would have been plenty adequate to save him, considering what it has healed him of in the past. And to clarify, I made it clear that I thought he only knew about this in part 2, I don't think he had any knowledge of this in Part 1.



YW :). Too bad Toonami isn't as good now as it used to be.
Your opinion *shrugs* I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

We really don't know when he learned about the mask though. That's the kicker here....we don't know how long he even had the knowledge that he COULD do this. Also there isn't any proof that he absolutely needed the body transfer or not-he could have just shed his skin-but any suggestion we throw fourth is really just opinion as it hasn't been specified.

Maybe Kishi will make it clear later on. Don't cross your fingers though, knowing him, he wont go into detail. It is what it is. Honestly I'm just happy to see Orochimaru with his arms back seeming more powerful than ever, as maybe we'll finally get a proper fight for him displaying his true power. He's a character that has been trolled quite a bit in the past.

Only thing good on toonami these days is Naruto and Bleach. I hate the Naruto english dub though so i don't watch it.

Why the hell is thundercats on the lineup? *sigh*
 

Floydical

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Just to remind you guys, the barrier you speak of only extends to the wall of the village:

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The manga clearly states that they far outside the village, so this isn't in the village's barrier like you may think.
 
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Yeah, you have valid points.. The whole thing is a bit fishy, Orochimaru should have done this before..

I think that Uzumaki shrine on the outskirts is something a whole a lot more.
While Tsunade and Danzo was running things, I really don't think it is just a building outside the village that anybody could simply walk in. Death is written all over it. The ninjas are gone to war, and the remaining r rebuilding Pain's destruction. I'm not surprised that place got deserted so Orochimaru and the others walked in so easily.

One question I have that the manga has yet to answer, will the mask work instantly the second a person puts it on? or does it have to be in the Uchiha shrine to make it work?

Just a wild guess, maybe it does work instantly, but only the uchiha shrine can reverse it? If it is that way, then it would explain why it took Oro so long.
 

sLm

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Why didn't anyone notice Orochimaru and the others entering the Leaf? You just proved that a barrier was around the village, they should have been detected right away!
 

Gyakusetsu

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Yes, there has definetly been a combination of suspiciously fortuitous events going back to Juugo and Suigetsu's discovery of the scroll. These events all leading up to Oro's decision with the ultimate goal of having both Sasuke's body and his arms again. There is little chance that Oro would give up Sasuke's body in exchange for his arms and if Dr. Proof's theory that by having a body fused with Hashirama's DNA shortens the wait time for the use of the body transfer technique then suddenly having a Zetsu handy is very convenient. Very nice of Tobito to have provided just enough clones. Somethings definetly up here. Great job.
 

Floydical

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Why didn't anyone notice Orochimaru and the others entering the Leaf? You just proved that a barrier was around the village, they should have been detected right away!
The point I was making was that the barrier only extends to the outer wall of Konoha. Anything within that wall is considered part of the village. So the fact that Suigetsu said they are outside the village means they are outside of both the wall and the barrier. Once they went to the Uchiha shrine, yes they were in the village but the barrier squad likely is not there anymore. The fact they were not detected does not prove the Uzumaki building was in the village, we can only go off what Suigetsu said.
 

Ero sennin jiraiya

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Why didn't anyone notice Orochimaru and the others entering the Leaf? You just proved that a barrier was around the village, they should have been detected right away!
Are you talking about in the recent chapter, or in the past during the chuunin exams?

Konoha seems pretty deserted right now, so that explains that.

During the Chuunin exams a lot of ninja from other countries were entering the village. I don't think a barrier can detect exactly who enters but just that someone has, and during that time since there was high traffic nothing would seem out of the ordinary.
 

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1. HE had to train sasuke.(he can't really leave that guy alone )
2. He can't do his plan alone, he need a living being to be with him, since the technique costs you your life.
3. Akatsuki was spying on him so they always knew what he is upto.(kabuto can't be the only source, considering zetsu is such an expert spy)
4. Plot!
 

Floydical

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Yeah, you have valid points.. The whole thing is a bit fishy, Orochimaru should have done this before..

I think that Uzumaki shrine on the outskirts is something a whole a lot more.
While Tsunade and Danzo was running things, I really don't think it is just a building outside the village that anybody could simply walk in. Death is written all over it. The ninjas are gone to war, and the remaining r rebuilding Pain's destruction. I'm not surprised that place got deserted so Orochimaru and the others walked in so easily.

One question I have that the manga has yet to answer, will the mask work instantly the second a person puts it on? or does it have to be in the Uchiha shrine to make it work?

Just a wild guess, maybe it does work instantly, but only the uchiha shrine can reverse it? If it is that way, then it would explain why it took Oro so long.
Hmm I guess its possible the Uchiha shrine might have some significance, but I really don't see how Oro couldn't have done this anywhere. Its just very convenient with the plot for them to be revived there, thats all.

1. HE had to train sasuke.(he can't really leave that guy alone )
2. He can't do his plan alone, he need a living being to be with him, since the technique costs you your life.
3. Akatsuki was spying on him so they always knew what he is upto.(kabuto can't be the only source, considering zetsu is such an expert spy)
4. Plot!
Not leaving Sasuke alone is a good point. Sasuke might get suspicious or go on a rampage if Oro wasn't there for a day or 2, but still, if it was for his arms and his future safety and health, again it would have been worth the risk.

Again about this process costing you your life.... Oro is the perfect candidate to be able to bypass this. We have seen Oro survive grievous wounds and EVEN REGENERATE LIMBS using body shedding. To me, it was obvious he survived the death by body shedding and simply took the body of the Zetsu out of convenience afterward.

The Akatsuki point is potentially a good one, but I think it would be difficult to say that they'd be prepared enough to stop him. Yes Zetsu might have known about his movements and tracked him, but it was not common for Zetsu to provide intel fast enough to save an akatsuki in trouble or prevent and event from happening. I don't think he would have been able to realize soon enough what Oro was up to before he finished what he was doing.
 

thegame

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Uhm, I didn't read your entire thread, but the overall premise that Oro should have done this before, is wrong.

The explanation is quite simple. He couldn't

To do this, you needed to give up your body. In other words, you would die by doing it. So you would need to have your "body-take-over-technique" ready. This technique clearly was only usable every 4 year or something like that.

Oro was ready to take over Sasuke, but failed, so he could use this technique now without problems, since it failed the last time. So he simple took over Zetsu's body.

Also thus it can be concluded that Oro didn't know about this method, when he took that other body (the one before Sasuke).

I mean, the answer really is as simple as that. U_U
 
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