[Discussion] Zoro

[LitzSabr]

So what? That doesn't change anything. They still weren't familiar with each other or bonded to each other. Zoro two seconds after he became Luffy's subordinate is still the same person 2 hours before he became Luffy's subordinate. There's no development or character change there.

So? Franky is still further along Zoro in this category because Franky developed from someone who was actively attempting to kill Luffy to someone who would die for Luffy. Franky went from hating Luffy to being devoted to him, while Zoro went from indifferent to devoted. Franky has come further, regardless of status as Luffy's subordinate.

Neither of them. Zoro took Luffy's pain, showing he'd die for Luffy. That's been the greatest display of Zoro's devotion to Luffy. Not only did Oda make it clear every single Strawhat would have done the same thing, but just before that every Strawhat chose death over giving Luffy up. There hasn't been any special characterization of Zoro's loyalty. There WAS when he took Luffy's pain, but that was made no longer special when it was stated any of them would have done the same thing.

And that's the thing, he acknowledged luffy as captain and then the bond he made throughout the series and got developed to the the point where he is doing his dream For Luffy's sake before for himself. I don't think I need to explain how it has been given more details than that of other members.

But was it given as much details as zoro's development? Nope.

Any other strawhat who would've smacked luffy for doing something that would harm his own pride? No. That counts too. Any other who has pride as big as zoro but still bowed to another man? No. Another example I gave above, the line that zoro said to usopp about luffy. Usopp leaving crew and other little instances can by found on this topic alone. This is what it means to show us different aspects of one's character. And these are things which only a person with zoro's mindset could've done. And if he inspired these qualities in others too after he did it then, well, I would give others credit too but obviously more to zoro.

 

[LitzSabr]

So what? That doesn't change anything. They still weren't familiar with each other or bonded to each other. Zoro two seconds after he became Luffy's subordinate is still the same person 2 hours before he became Luffy's subordinate. There's no development or character change there.

So? Franky is still further along Zoro in this category because Franky developed from someone who was actively attempting to kill Luffy to someone who would die for Luffy. Franky went from hating Luffy to being devoted to him, while Zoro went from indifferent to devoted. Franky has come further, regardless of status as Luffy's subordinate.

Neither of them. Zoro took Luffy's pain, showing he'd die for Luffy. That's been the greatest display of Zoro's devotion to Luffy. Not only did Oda make it clear every single Strawhat would have done the same thing, but just before that every Strawhat chose death over giving Luffy up. There hasn't been any special characterization of Zoro's loyalty. There WAS when he took Luffy's pain, but that was made no longer special when it was stated any of them would have done the same thing.

And that's the thing, he acknowledged luffy as captain and then the bond he made throughout the series and got developed to the the point where he is doing his dream For Luffy's sake before for himself. I don't think I need to explain how it has been given more details than that of other members.

But was it given as much details as zoro's development? Nope. Franky was completely okay with luffy the moment he joined and him watching SH taking back Robin was mostly what did it for him.

Any other strawhat who would've smacked luffy for doing something that would harm his own pride? No. That counts too. Any other who has pride as big as zoro but still bowed to another man? No. Another example I gave above, the line that zoro said to usopp about luffy. Usopp leaving crew and other little instances can by found on this topic alone. This is what it means to show us different aspects of one's character. And these are things which only a person with zoro's mindset could've done. And if he inspired these qualities in others too after he did it then, well, I would give others credit too but obviously more to zoro.

 

[ToshiZO]

So what? That doesn't change anything. They still weren't familiar with each other or bonded to each other. Zoro two seconds after he became Luffy's subordinate is still the same person 2 hours before he became Luffy's subordinate. There's no development or character change there.

So? Franky is still further along Zoro in this category because Franky developed from someone who was actively attempting to kill Luffy to someone who would die for Luffy. Franky went from hating Luffy to being devoted to him, while Zoro went from indifferent to devoted. Franky has come further, regardless of status as Luffy's subordinate.

Neither of them. Zoro took Luffy's pain, showing he'd die for Luffy. That's been the greatest display of Zoro's devotion to Luffy. Not only did Oda make it clear every single Strawhat would have done the same thing, but just before that every Strawhat chose death over giving Luffy up. There hasn't been any special characterization of Zoro's loyalty. There WAS when he took Luffy's pain, but that was made no longer special when it was stated any of them would have done the same thing.

No Franky didn't. Zoro only cared about his dream nothing else, his character was all about being the WSS. Now its secondary to Luffy...so no Franky didn't come further just because he was attacking a guy he didnt even know.

 

[Punk Hazard]

No Franky didn't. Zoro only cared about his dream nothing else, his character was all about being the WSS. Now its secondary to Luffy...so no Franky didn't come further just because he was attacking a guy he didnt even know.

Zoro went from being selfish and indifferent to Luffy to being devoted to Luffy.
Franky went from being selfish and hating Luffy, attempting to kill him, to being devoted to Luffy.

Yeah, nah, Franky went further.

And that's the thing, he acknowledged luffy as captain and then the bond he made throughout the series and got developed to the the point where he is doing his dream For Luffy's sake before for himself. I don't think I need to explain how it has been given more details than that of other members.

But was it given as much details as zoro's development? Nope. Franky was completely okay with luffy the moment he joined and him watching SH taking back Robin was mostly what did it for him.

Zoro hasn't gotten more detail than the others though. The only thing that did was taking Luffy's pain, and that was made not special when it was clarified any Strawhat would have done the same thing.

The loyalty between Luffy and Franky got its own little nudge when Luffy offered Franky the Mera Mera and, while being attacked by others, voiced that keeping his promise to Franky to remain disguised and hidden as his concern.

Any other strawhat who would've smacked luffy for doing something that would harm his own pride? No. That counts too.

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Any other who has pride as big as zoro but still bowed to another man?

Franky.

Another example I gave above, the line that zoro said to usopp about luffy. Usopp leaving crew and other little instances can by found on this topic alone. This is what it means to show us different aspects of one's character. And these are things which only a person with zoro's mindset could've done. And if he inspired these qualities in others too after he did it then, well, I would give others credit too but obviously more to zoro.

Sanji also voiced the same concerns and supported Zoro, echoing what he said, so Zoro is not the only one with that mindset.

 

[LitzSabr]

Zoro hasn't gotten more detail than the others though. The only thing that did was taking Luffy's pain, and that was made not special when it was clarified any Strawhat would have done the same thing.

The loyalty between Luffy and Franky got its own little nudge when Luffy offered Franky the Mera Mera and, while being attacked by others, voiced that keeping his promise to Franky to remain disguised and hidden as his concern.

He has, in this aspect espcially, since most of his character arc revolves around it. It's not about what they become, but how, and that is where he shines. Sanji tried to do the same thing but his character didn't get the same treatment there. And didn't the likes of Nami, due to fear, went along with Enel. If any other strawhat would've done the same thing it's a talk about then and even though it's respectable, I'm not giving any of them credit "as a character" for this as much as the one who really did it and had his character elevated. It's not logical. Them being able to do it or not doesn't affect what zoro did in the slightest.


Good for Franky. A new thing for the character.

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Usopp was in the wrong here in the first place and Sanji did it for him.

Franky.

Really, when and how?

Sanji also voiced the same concerns and supported Zoro, echoing what he said, so Zoro is not the only one with that mindset.

"Supporting", obviously after zoro got some new development he supported his idea but did he do it in his place like he did? He even told luffy and others beforehand that usopp was coming and didn't show any intention of stopping them.

 

[Hexuze]

Tbh zoro is not lacking as a character in any way.

IMO he is. His character rarely developed that much since the TS.

 

[LitzSabr]

IMO he is. His character rarely developed that much since the TS.

Well since TS is different he did change after TS but major development have yet to come.

 

[A v i]

Zoro went from being selfish and indifferent to Luffy to being devoted to Luffy.
Franky went from being selfish and hating Luffy, attempting to kill him, to being devoted to Luffy.

Changing your opinion on someone is not equivalent to abandoning your dream which you thought as more important than your own life. Franky is not even comparable to Zoro. He's a simple minded guy who easily changes his mind, he went ahead and loved Usopp after witnessing his care towards Merry despite them being enemies. He was ready to die for Robin after learning her background. Like wise we've loads of instances indicating how simpleminded Franky is. And you're here and comparing a pointless revenge from a skirmish with Zoro's drive to be swordsman which I believe is a joke.

Zoro devoted himself to be the WSSM and basically died against Mihawk while pursuing his dream implying that he isn't someone that'd easily give up his dream as he choose to give up his life over his dream. It explains how great his drive to be the WSS is, it's next only Luffy's or even same to be honest. I am pretty sure almost all SH's except for Zoro & Luffy at one point gave up their dreams due to different reasons. Zoro however choose to always chase his dream no matter what and puts his dream over his life, That's what separates him from the rest of the crew. When a man such as himself puts his dream beneath someone else , it must be considered to be greatest achievement of Luffy as a captain.

 

[Hexuze]

Well since TS is different he did change after TS but major development have yet to come.

Yeah I'm not talking about Zoro's development in general but rather post-TS. It's been underwhelming so far. Not to mention he hasn't done much either.

 

[KingHashirama]

Every Strawhat developed that. Like I said, he has no core development unique to himself from the rest of the SHs, which is why he's lacking.

Name me 1 strawhat, that said they would go against luffy if he got in their way? none. They all chose to follow Luffy, supporting his dream. Zoro originally chose to follow luffy simply because he would benefit from it.

But if you are dis-regarding that development then , lets go over the other strawhat members that you said had core development, and listed it.

Usopp-Became less cowardly and has greater faith in himself, doesn't see himself as useless to the crew

Sanji- Learned dreams are worth dying for, as opposed to when he told Zoro what good is having a dream if you die.

Nami- Went from caring for no one else to showing concern for others, most dominantly shown in Punk Hazard to the children.

Brook- No longer cared about how he looked ridiculous in front of others because it's who he is

Franky- Takes pride in his creations, instead of denouncing them. That's why he so proudly uses his nipple lights.

Chopper- Embraced that he's a monster, making it positive rather than being negative

Luffy- acknowledged that he can't naively believe that everything will just work themselves out, and that he needs to have the strength to make things happen.

Robin- No longer suicidal, realizes she is loved.

Usopp - Still a coward. He has his heroic moments, just like he had them before time skip. Nothing new same old shit with Ussop.

Sanji - Happened before he ever became a strawhat member. And really nothing that big.

Nami - sorry but her entire character revolved around her caring for people, since the time she was introduced. She cared for the old dude, all the people in her village.

Brook - was this even a major development? lol.

Franky - dude that was in his flashback. long before he joined the strawhats.

Chopper - before he joined the strawhats

Luffy - sadly, quote the opposite of what you said.. the dude is literally the same as he was in part 1 about things.

Robin - agreed she developed as a strawhat



So who out of these characters actually developed as a strawhat?? Robin. Other than that, its literally the same old shit.

 

[A v i]

IMO he is. His character rarely developed that much since the TS.

A man with muscles for brains to someone who advises people not to waste their energy by pointlessly destroying stuff.
A man who engages enemies without thinking about consequences to someone who thinks about figuring enemies ability.
A man who leaves things up to luck and a man who believes that things would somehow workout to someone who uses tactics and someone who makes good use of resources around him. You could say that he gained good level of self control by looking at how different his behavior towards Tashigi is after TS. He went form a man who follows pretty much same methods as Luffy to someone who warns Luffy to be serious about his actions. Simply put it, he became far more level headed than his pre skip self.In general it may not be great development but it's definitely great given how hopeless Zoro and Luffy are.

 

[Hexuze]

A man with muscles for brains to someone who advises people not to waste their energy by pointlessly destroying stuff.
A man who engages enemies without thinking about consequences to someone who thinks about figuring enemies ability.
A man who leaves things up to luck and a man who believes that things would somehow workout to someone who uses tactics and someone who makes good use of resources around him. You could say that he gained good level of self control by looking at how different his behavior towards Tashigi is after TS. He went form a man who follows pretty much same methods as Luffy to someone who warns Luffy to be serious about his actions. Simply put it, he became far more level headed than his pre skip self.In general it may not be great development but it's definitely great given how hopeless Zoro and Luffy are.

Notice how I said rarely, I never said it's nonexistent. However, what you're saying is not true. You act as if that's the first time Zoro has warned Luffy about his actions and was able to assess the situation.:
[video=youtube;6ZBZWi9KuCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZBZWi9KuCY[/video]

Not only did the scene show how level headed he can be but also gave him great characterization. Even Sanji went as far to say that he agrees with his decision. He managed to look at that situation at hand more critically than Luffy/Chopper/Nami who were mindlessly running to get Usopp back. Zoro hasn't showed anything of that caliber since the TS.

 

[A v i]

Notice how I said rarely, I never said it's nonexistent. However, what you're saying is not true. You act as if that's the first time Zoro has warned Luffy about his actions and was able to assess the situation.:
Not only did the scene show how level headed he can be but also gave him great characterization. Even Sanji went as far to say that he agrees with his decision. He managed to look at that situation at hand more critically than Luffy/Chopper/Nami who were mindlessly running to get Usopp back. Zoro hasn't showed anything of that caliber since the TS.

Back then it was a matter of pride and dignity in which case Zoro has always been better than any other crew member, it has very little to do anything with being smart or exhibiting intelligence.The rest of the crew couldn't realize the gravity of the situation because they care very little about that kind of stuff not because Zoro was being a smart ass or anything. Besides there is a serious different b/w rarely exhibiting sings of intelligence and actually being intelligent. It's very rare to see this kind of actions from Zoro before TS but it became very common after TS. That's the major difference. And as I said before it's not much of a deal in general but for someone like Zoro it's a bigger achievement than learning a country busting move.

 

[LitzSabr]

Yeah I'm not talking about Zoro's development in general but rather post-TS. It's been underwhelming so far. Not to mention he hasn't done much either.

But hey, many other SHs hasn't had any major developments either. I can name small things here and there for everyone including zoro but not much besides them.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Name me 1 strawhat, that said they would go against luffy if he got in their way? none. They all chose to follow Luffy, supporting his dream. Zoro originally chose to follow luffy simply because he would benefit from it.

But if you are dis-regarding that development then , lets go over the other strawhat members that you said had core development, and listed it.

Already addressed this using Franky. Franky went from enemy attempting to kill Luffy to devoted to Luffy.

Usopp - Still a coward. He has his heroic moments, just like he had them before time skip. Nothing new same old shit with Ussop.

Usopp went from running from any and every enemy to understanding who he can and can't fight, and fighting the latter, to fighting both when needed. He's a coward, but he's developed to move past that cowardice when needed. I also never said these developments are differences between post and preskip.

Usopp also went from believing he was nothing but a burden to the crew that dragged them down and had no use in the crew. This changed during Enies Lobby, particularly during his conversation with Sanji about how there are things Sanji can do that Usopp can't, and vice versa.

Sanji - Happened before he ever became a strawhat member. And really nothing that big.

1. Did I say it happened after he became the Strawhat? The timing of the change is irrelevant, it's the change happening that matters.

2. And you're wrong about that. During the battle of Baratie, Sanji told Zoro to give up on his dream if it would kill him. At Fishman Island, Sanji said seeing the mermaids is "his All Blue" and if it meant he'd die, then he doesn't care because it's his dream. Sanji's development prior to joining the Strawhats was learning the value of food when he and Zeff were starving on that small island.

Also, did you just say learning the value of dreams and having the drive to die for your dreams is no big deal? In One Piece?

Nami - sorry but her entire character revolved around her caring for people, since the time she was introduced. She cared for the old dude, all the people in her village.

I'll give you that, that was a poor way of describing it. She did possess concern and care for others, but her actions were mostly driven by self-preservation of her and her village. She didn't care for strangers, such as the Strawhat crew. Basically, if you didn't know her personally, who cares. This changed to being protective of people period, as proclaimed on Punk Hazard.

Brook - was this even a major development? lol.

For Brook, yes, as it is the major trait of his character.

Franky - dude that was in his flashback. long before he joined the strawhats.

Doesn't matter when, as long as it happened.

Chopper - before he joined the strawhats

Luffy - sadly, quote the opposite of what you said.. the dude is literally the same as he was in part 1 about things.

No he was not. Luffy was the same as Shirahoshi: They both just naively believed things would work out no matter what. Luffy never believed he would fail at things, or things wouldn't go his way if he just tried. That's why during the Whitebeard Saga, Luffy was constantly saying he'd save Ace no matter what and why Ace's death had such a psychological effect on him. He never let himself believe things could go wrong, which is why he was unprepared and why he failed. That's why he made the Strawhats train for 2 years, they never stopped to seriously acknowledge how wrongs thing could go, so they didn't have the strength for when they inevitably would happen. He ensured that they would.

 

[Hexuze]

Back then it was a matter of pride and dignity in which case Zoro has always been better than any other crew member, it has very little to do anything with being smart or exhibiting intelligence.The rest of the crew couldn't realize the gravity of the situation because they care very little about that kind of stuff not because Zoro was being a smart ass or anything. Besides there is a serious different b/w rarely exhibiting sings of intelligence and actually being intelligent. It's very rare to see this kind of actions from Zoro before TS but it became very common after TS. That's the major difference. And as I said before it's not much of a deal in general but for someone like Zoro it's a bigger achievement than learning a country busting move.

I'm aware of that. So telling your captain to take the new world more seriously is more level headed than Zoro coming up with a solution to a problem. I wasn't claiming that Zoro is some sort of genius after what he said during that scene in Water 7; it was to show that he was reasonable. I don't see where Zoro was more level headed than that since the TS.

But hey, many other SHs hasn't had any major developments either. I can name small things here and there for everyone including zoro but not much besides them.

Of course! It's not exclusive to Zoro but many other of the SH members could use some improvements (sure some more than others). I don't see as any of the SH's or any character in general to be perfect, they all have their faults/inconsistencies and Zoro is no exception. I would rank him, Sanji & Brook as the characters who hasn't developed that much since the TS. I would go in more on Brook but that's not the character of discussion and Sanji has been taking on bigger roles than Zoro lately.

Don't misunderstand me either. I'm not saying Zoro's character is doomed lol. Of course he'll have an arc where we'll see his character get development but I'm talking about what has happened since the TS. It's been like 200+ chapters since then.