Yhwach vs Ichigo, Aizen, and Yamamoto

[Forbidden Tale]

Yhwach vs Yamamoto - Yhwach wins with around high diff.
Yhwach vs Hogyoku Aizen - Yhwach wins with low to mid diff.
Yhwach vs Dangai Ichigo - Yhwach wins with mid diff.

Together these three wins with low diff.

A full-powered Yhwach would kill Yamamoto, that isn't debatable. However, we know for a fact that Yhwach before his awakening is far weaker, and that state of Yhwach vs Yamamoto is debatable.

I wouldn't say that it's debetable.

Yamamoto likely already overpowered Yhwach 1000 years ago and that without using full power of his bankai. Also it's possible that Yhwach was affraid of Yama in 1 vs 1 and that's why he left Royd in his place. Yamamoto already said that he only went full powered against Royd, because he wanted to kill him with his full power.

Also, Yhwach was never aware of Prime Yamamoto, because he only know about Brutal Young Partial Bankai Yamamoto and he already considered that guy a SWP.

And don't forget that Hashwalth said that in the past Yhwach had "The Almight", which also leave possibility of Yamamoto beating Almighty Yhwach.

 

[Goetia]

Yhwach vs Yamamoto - Yhwach wins with around high diff.
Yhwach vs Hogyoku Aizen - Yhwach wins with low to mid diff.
Yhwach vs Dangai Ichigo - Yhwach wins with mid diff.

Together these three wins with low diff.



I wouldn't say that it's debetable.

Yamamoto likely already overpowered Yhwach 1000 years ago and that without using full power of his bankai. Also it's possible that Yhwach was affraid of Yama in 1 vs 1 and that's why he left Royd in his place. Yamamoto already said that he only went full powered against Royd, because he wanted to kill him with his full power.

Also, Yhwach was never aware of Prime Yamamoto, because he only know about Brutal Young Partial Bankai Yamamoto and he already considered that guy a SWP.

And don't forget that Hashwalth said that in the past Yhwach had "The Almight", which also leave possibility of Yamamoto beating Almighty Yhwach.

True, very true.

 

[Airbear]

Yamamoto solos like he did 1,000 years ago.

 

[Phoenix110]

i kinda feel bad for the Soul King, everybody wants to kill that dude :T_T:

Lmaoo this is just hilarious

 

[Phoenix110]

Am gonna pretend I didn't just read what I just read and say team two wins

 

[TRE MERCER]

Ywach with the lowest of difficulty.

His powers alone allowed him to one shot Ichibei someone who is easily stronger than all the guys on this team. Now imagine him once his powers from the sternritter return. ​

 

[OG sama]

Ywach with the lowest of difficulty.

His powers alone allowed him to one shot Ichibei someone who is easily stronger than all the guys on this team. Now imagine him once his powers from the sternritter return. ​

Ichibei is not stronger than Ichigo, he even said that Ichigo was the only person that could stop him. And Ichibei being stronger than Aizen or especially Yama is debatable. He may beat them but not Ichigo.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Ichibei is not stronger than Ichigo, he even said that Ichigo was the only person that could stop him. And Ichibei being stronger than Aizen or especially Yama is debatable. He may beat them but not Ichigo.

This isn't current Ichigo you clown.​

 

[OG sama]

This isn't current Ichigo you clown.​

Oh :|, but OP never said which version, but everyone just using Dangai form.

 

[AizenSosuke]

I can potentially Solo. Adding Ichigo and Yamamoto is overkill.

 

[Ultimateone]

If Yhwach can't steal Yamamotos Bankai then Yamamoto beats him alone.

Its already been proven Yamamoto is the most powerful so far to exist in the Bleach Universe. Its a fact that to beat him you either need to seal his power (what Aizen did) or take it away from him (what Yhwach did). Both men admitted inferiority to him and they needed to plan ahead of time and form contingency plans in order to pull a win over him.

His power can destroy the world and himself if activated too long.
He gets hot as the sun and can't be touched
He brings back the dead of all those his flames has killed (mind you hes about 3000 years old, so thats tons of people)
His Zanpaktou is the strongest their is (in fire power that is)

Yhwach vs Yamamoto - Yhwach wins with around high diff.
Yhwach vs Hogyoku Aizen - Yhwach wins with low to mid diff.
Yhwach vs Dangai Ichigo - Yhwach wins with mid diff.

Together these three wins with low diff.



I wouldn't say that it's debetable.

Yamamoto likely already overpowered Yhwach 1000 years ago and that without using full power of his bankai. Also it's possible that Yhwach was affraid of Yama in 1 vs 1 and that's why he left Royd in his place. Yamamoto already said that he only went full powered against Royd, because he wanted to kill him with his full power.

Also, Yhwach was never aware of Prime Yamamoto, because he only know about Brutal Young Partial Bankai Yamamoto and he already considered that guy a SWP.

And don't forget that Hashwalth said that in the past Yhwach had "The Almight", which also leave possibility of Yamamoto beating Almighty Yhwach.

i would like to ask, where did juha bach ever admit inferiority to yamamoto. i am pretty sure he thought yama was a joke. also, we don't know the circumstances for which yama defeated juha or what his powers were then. it wouldn't make sense for him to come back weaker or the same power, so most likely is is stronger now. also if anything, ichibe has shown that he is the most powerful shinigami, outclassing yama quite easily.

for the power that juha has now, it would not take high diff for juha to beat him. yama's west ability only tops sword attacks and the like. juha doesn't need to do any of that to kill him. he has a shit ton of powers that are energy minipulation and spells that would easily take out yama. considering how yama decided not to do anything after his bankai got taken tells a lot. unlike ichibe who did tons before even releasing his shikai.

if you actually think juha beats hokyoku aizen low diff than you don't know what your talking about. juha would actually need to use the almighty power just to get past aizens hypnosis. than he has to get past aizens now transcended fighting abilities. which by the way, we have no idea that he can match that sort of strength.

as for dangai ichigo, your just trolling now. dangai ichigo is by far the most powerful character we have seen in the manga so far. i'm still dumbfounded that some people don't get the way that powerlevels work in this manga, it's so simple.

but anyways, team 2 wins.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

i would like to ask, where did juha bach ever admit inferiority to yamamoto. i am pretty sure he thought yama was a joke. also, we don't know the circumstances for which yama defeated juha or what his powers were then. it wouldn't make sense for him to come back weaker or the same power, so most likely is is stronger now. also if anything, ichibe has shown that he is the most powerful shinigami, outclassing yama quite easily.

- Yhwach left Royd to fight Yamamoto. Yhwach's copy could pretty much be fodderized by Yamamoto in shikai, Yamamoto stated that he wanted to destroy him with his full power.
- Yhwach's powers depends on the amount of souls he absorb, so it's pretty possible that Yhwach than was stronger than now.
- We don't know how did Yama beat Yhwach, and we don't know did Yama even beat Yhwach, but it's likely that he did. And we know that Yamamaoto didn't use any of his 4 bankai techniques, while it's possible that Yhwach even used his almighty.
- No, Ichibe didn't show anything to me that would put him above Yamamoto, let alone that would beat Yamamoto quite easily.

for the power that juha has now, it would not take high diff for juha to beat him. yama's west ability only tops sword attacks and the like. juha doesn't need to do any of that to kill him. he has a shit ton of powers that are energy minipulation and spells that would easily take out yama. considering how yama decided not to do anything after his bankai got taken tells a lot. unlike ichibe who did tons before even releasing his shikai.

- Where was stated that Yama's west ability tops only swords? Yama step in Royd's Sankt Zwinger and said that it wouldn't work. So Yamamoto's west is tops to spells.
- Yamamoto was already exhaused prior to Yhwach's arriving. And as As Nodt said there is no point in attacking your bankai with your shikai, it's not just that Yhwach had his abilities against Yamamoto's shikai, but he had his bankai as well.
- Ichibe is constant shikai release, since his brush is not ordinary sword and his brush even has ink abilities. So Ichibe's shikai is constant relrease. Ichibe's feats in shikai are better than his feats in bankai, which is lame. And as the final, as long as we know, most powerful zanpakuto is Ryujin Jakka. Zanpakuto is primary of shinigamis' power, bankai increase power by 5-10x times. If we assume that old geezers like Yama and Ichibe has 10x times increase that would make their zanpakuto's around 90% of their full power. Since Yama has strongest zanpakuto, that 90% is stronger than Ichibe's 90% quite a lot.

if you actually think juha beats hokyoku aizen low diff than you don't know what your talking about. juha would actually need to use the almighty power just to get past aizens hypnosis. than he has to get past aizens now transcended fighting abilities. which by the way, we have no idea that he can match that sort of strength.

- No! Ryujin Jakka alone would be able to fodderize Aizen (that's just shikai, no kido, no bankai, no hakuda), that's by Aizen's own admince. I would like to see your arguments because I see you know what you are talking about.
- Yamamoto after feeling Aizen's reiatsu (Aizen said that battles of shinigamis are battles of reiatsu) was sure that he can take him without his zanpakuto, so only with kido, hakuda and shunpo.
- Kyoka Suigetsu can be countered in some ways.

as for dangai ichigo, your just trolling now. dangai ichigo is by far the most powerful character we have seen in the manga so far. i'm still dumbfounded that some people don't get the way that powerlevels work in this manga, it's so simple.

- When Dangai Ichigo shows feat that he can destroy whole planet with just heat of his zanpakuto, than I will consider possibility of his being stronger character in series.
- I would like to see "hw that power levels works" in manga, and I promise I will give you answers to all you want to know... "so simple".

 

[Ultimateone]

- Yhwach left Royd to fight Yamamoto. Yhwach's copy could pretty much be fodderized by Yamamoto in shikai, Yamamoto stated that he wanted to destroy him with his full power.
- Yhwach's powers depends on the amount of souls he absorb, so it's pretty possible that Yhwach than was stronger than now.
- We don't know how did Yama beat Yhwach, and we don't know did Yama even beat Yhwach, but it's likely that he did. And we know that Yamamaoto didn't use any of his 4 bankai techniques, while it's possible that Yhwach even used his almighty.
- No, Ichibe didn't show anything to me that would put him above Yamamoto, let alone that would beat Yamamoto quite easily.



- Where was stated that Yama's west ability tops only swords? Yama step in Royd's Sankt Zwinger and said that it wouldn't work. So Yamamoto's west is tops to spells.
- Yamamoto was already exhaused prior to Yhwach's arriving. And as As Nodt said there is no point in attacking your bankai with your shikai, it's not just that Yhwach had his abilities against Yamamoto's shikai, but he had his bankai as well.
- Ichibe is constant shikai release, since his brush is not ordinary sword and his brush even has ink abilities. So Ichibe's shikai is constant relrease. Ichibe's feats in shikai are better than his feats in bankai, which is lame. And as the final, as long as we know, most powerful zanpakuto is Ryujin Jakka. Zanpakuto is primary of shinigamis' power, bankai increase power by 5-10x times. If we assume that old geezers like Yama and Ichibe has 10x times increase that would make their zanpakuto's around 90% of their full power. Since Yama has strongest zanpakuto, that 90% is stronger than Ichibe's 90% quite a lot.



- No! Ryujin Jakka alone would be able to fodderize Aizen (that's just shikai, no kido, no bankai, no hakuda), that's by Aizen's own admince. I would like to see your arguments because I see you know what you are talking about.
- Yamamoto after feeling Aizen's reiatsu (Aizen said that battles of shinigamis are battles of reiatsu) was sure that he can take him without his zanpakuto, so only with kido, hakuda and shunpo.
- Kyoka Suigetsu can be countered in some ways.



- When Dangai Ichigo shows feat that he can destroy whole planet with just heat of his zanpakuto, than I will consider possibility of his being stronger character in series.
- I would like to see "hw that power levels works" in manga, and I promise I will give you answers to all you want to know... "so simple".

ryod copied personality and knowledge not abilities and strength. so it doesn't matter that if he could beat him with his shikai. which by the way is completely wrong i might add, but even if he could that means nothing here. as i have said before, it would make zero sense for him to be weaker now. why would he come back weaker to fight if he lost when he was stronger? so, more than likely, he's much stronger now. you're right in thinking it's possible that yama didn't beat juha, because it's never actually said that he did. so, either juha was much weaker, or yama never actually beat juha in a 1v1 but through some other means. based on bachs almighty powers, if he had used it, he would have most certainly beat yama. everything ichibe did outclasses everything that yama ever did. everyone of yama's abilities mean absolutely nothing for ichibe and he basically neutralizes anything he does.

yama's west ability seems to only "stop" swords and other physical attacks. yama did not step inside the spell that ryod cast. he used his south ability so that the skeletons would enter into it. remember, he than stepped away to get some distance between them. and before that when ryod shot an arrow at yama, he didn't let it hit his body but blocked it with his sword. had his shield protected him against the arrow he wouldn't have felt the need to actually block it with his sword.

if yama was exhausted than he has very little stamina. the fight between him and ryod wasn't long at all and prior to that he had only used his shikai twice. characters in bleach have had multiple battles before facing a big bad and been alright. also, juha could have used yama's bankai, but he didn't. even still, basically what your saying is that yama was right for just standing there and getting one shotted. that makes no sense whatsoever. the fact that he didn't try anything, when he is supposed to be well versed in the ways of the shinigami, and you telling me he was just suppose to stand there? all it did was show how weak he actualluy is compared to the top tiers.

yama's zanpakuto is the strongest fire type zanpakuto. to say that any given zanpakuto is the strongest would be a weird thing to say, considering how varied zanpakuto abilities are. plus the manga says strongest fire type. i can put a link if need be, but it's present in "the fire" chapters i think. ichibe's banaki is very powerful, he basically takes away all of someones power and basically changes them power wise into whatever he writes. that craps on what yama's zanpakuto abilities are.

aizens shikai can only be countered by one, not ever seeing his shikai's release, which yama has already seen. or two, grabing onto kyoka suigetsu. other than that, we know of no other way. aizen never said that yama was stronger than him. what was said is that their powers are basically comparable and that there is a chance that he could lose to him. think about it, yama was willing to set up a trap that would incenerate the entire area including himself because he feared/respected aizens powers. aizen fearing/respected yama's abilities as well had a counter too. so both were comparable in power than, he only got infinitely stronger after that. take into account that yama was only able to do something against aizen because aizen decided that it was time for a monologue instead of just killing him, which he obviously could have done, there battle would have been over very quickly.

people get caught up on the whole yama's bankai being able to destroy soul society. sure it's OP but realize why it's doing that. basically his ability is to produce flames as hot as the sun thus it would make sense that his abilities would have area affect like that. ichigo not having abilities like that wouldn't make sense for his power to just start destroying dimensions.

i'm pretty sure that me and you have discussed the way fighting in the manga works in another thread, if i'm wrong i'll explain again. it's been said in the manga multiple times that a battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu. back in soul society arc with ichigo vs kenpachi, ichigo wanted to know why he couldn't cut zaraki. zaraki said because the reiatsu his body is producing is greater than what ichigo is releasing with his zanpakuto. aizen vs soi feng she tried to use death in 2 strokes on aizen. she landed both hits but he didn't die. which is when aizen said a battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu. aizen vs ichigo aizen used a level 90 kido full incantation against ichigo which is suppose to work gravity inside the black coffin. the same spell used against kimimaru that one shotted him without an incantation. but ichigo swatted it away with one hand. this has been shown in other fights throughout the manga in smaller ways. so if your powerlevel is significantly bigger, like aizens and ichigo's were than abilities are not gonna have the same effect they normally would. also would allow them to pretty much outclass everybody they fought.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

ryod copied personality and knowledge not abilities and strength. so it doesn't matter that if he could beat him with his shikai. which by the way is completely wrong i might add, but even if he could that means nothing here. as i have said before, it would make zero sense for him to be weaker now. why would he come back weaker to fight if he lost when he was stronger? so, more than likely, he's much stronger now. you're right in thinking it's possible that yama didn't beat juha, because it's never actually said that he did. so, either juha was much weaker, or yama never actually beat juha in a 1v1 but through some other means. based on bachs almighty powers, if he had used it, he would have most certainly beat yama. everything ichibe did outclasses everything that yama ever did. everyone of yama's abilities mean absolutely nothing for ichibe and he basically neutralizes anything he does.

- Royd somehow used Yhwach's sword. Royd got Yhwach's abilities through his knowledge he got after he copied his abilities and Royd had pretty huge reiatsu when he could use them in battle.
- Could you explain how is that completely wrong?
- Why would he not be weaker? Yamamoto got weaker as well. His power depends on how much souls he absorb.
- Again, Ichibe don't outclass Yamamoto. Ichibe was always inferior to Yhwach, while Yamamoto was able to beat him. Even if that's weaker form than that of 1000 years ago. Tho, Hashwalth said that Yhwach in the past used his schrift.

yama's west ability seems to only "stop" swords and other physical attacks. yama did not step inside the spell that ryod cast. he used his south ability so that the skeletons would enter into it. remember, he than stepped away to get some distance between them. and before that when ryod shot an arrow at yama, he didn't let it hit his body but blocked it with his sword. had his shield protected him against the arrow he wouldn't have felt the need to actually block it with his sword.

- Arrow is spirit weapon, just like his sword...

if yama was exhausted than he has very little stamina. the fight between him and ryod wasn't long at all and prior to that he had only used his shikai twice. characters in bleach have had multiple battles before facing a big bad and been alright. also, juha could have used yama's bankai, but he didn't. even still, basically what your saying is that yama was right for just standing there and getting one shotted. that makes no sense whatsoever. the fact that he didn't try anything, when he is supposed to be well versed in the ways of the shinigami, and you telling me he was just suppose to stand there? all it did was show how weak he actualluy is compared to the top tiers.

- It's not that Royd exhausted Yamamoto, but it's that Zanka no Tachi exhausted Yamamoto.
- This is first time I'm seeing someone saying that Yamamoto is not top tier. Yamamoto is definition of the top tier.
- Some characters are just stronger than others. Aizen (who were supposed to be well versed in the ways of the shinigamis) were trashed by Ichigo. Almighty Yhwach > Bankai Yamamoto > Base Yhwach > Shikai Yamamoto > Exhausted Yamamoto. What Yhwach "one-shotted" was less that 10% of Yamamoto considering that he hasn't used his shikai, and was exhausted.

yama's zanpakuto is the strongest fire type zanpakuto. to say that any given zanpakuto is the strongest would be a weird thing to say, considering how varied zanpakuto abilities are. plus the manga says strongest fire type. i can put a link if need be, but it's present in "the fire" chapters i think. ichibe's banaki is very powerful, he basically takes away all of someones power and basically changes them power wise into whatever he writes. that craps on what yama's zanpakuto abilities are.

- According to Aizen, Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest zanpakuto.
- When it comes to feats of zanpakutos, there is no better feat than being able to destroy whole Soul Society with just heat.

aizens shikai can only be countered by one, not ever seeing his shikai's release, which yama has already seen. or two, grabing onto kyoka suigetsu. other than that, we know of no other way. aizen never said that yama was stronger than him. what was said is that their powers are basically comparable and that there is a chance that he could lose to him. think about it, yama was willing to set up a trap that would incenerate the entire area including himself because he feared/respected aizens powers. aizen fearing/respected yama's abilities as well had a counter too. so both were comparable in power than, he only got infinitely stronger after that. take into account that yama was only able to do something against aizen because aizen decided that it was time for a monologue instead of just killing him, which he obviously could have done, there battle would have been over very quickly.

- That's alone two counters, you listed.
- Aizen said it, which is not compared to Yamamoto's power, but compare to RJ's power, because Yamamoto is not it.
- Yamamoto respected his powers. Yamamoto was pretty sure that he can take down Aizen with just his abilities, after he feelt his reiatsu. Which mean that Yamamoto actually wasn't really aware of Aizen's reaitasu before that. Also Aizen is dirty player, that's one more reason why did Yama tried suicide technique.
- When you say that someone is stronger than you, than that battle will not end "quick".

people get caught up on the whole yama's bankai being able to destroy soul society. sure it's OP but realize why it's doing that. basically his ability is to produce flames as hot as the sun thus it would make sense that his abilities would have area affect like that. ichigo not having abilities like that wouldn't make sense for his power to just start destroying dimensions.

Heat is power of his zanpakuto. Just like Ichigo zanpakuto can fire various blast. When Ichigo's blast can destroy dimesnion than I would acknowledge that as same feat.

it's been said in the manga multiple times that a battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu. back in soul society arc with ichigo vs kenpachi, ichigo wanted to know why he couldn't cut zaraki. zaraki said because the reiatsu his body is producing is greater than what ichigo is releasing with his zanpakuto. aizen vs soi feng she tried to use death in 2 strokes on aizen. she landed both hits but he didn't die. which is when aizen said a battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu. aizen vs ichigo aizen used a level 90 kido full incantation against ichigo which is suppose to work gravity inside the black coffin. the same spell used against kimimaru that one shotted him without an incantation. but ichigo swatted it away with one hand. this has been shown in other fights throughout the manga in smaller ways. so if your powerlevel is significantly bigger, like aizens and ichigo's were than abilities are not gonna have the same effect they normally would. also would allow them to pretty much outclass everybody they fought.

I don't disagree with reiatsu method, but I don't see what that have to do with what you did here.
Ichigo wasn't able to negate Aizen's kido, he "destroyed" it. And both Aizen and Ichigo weren't just shinigamis at that time. If you want to agrue about "transcedent" reiatsu thing, than I will give you a tons of arguments, why that's not simple as you think..

 

[Ultimateone]

- Royd somehow used Yhwach's sword. Royd got Yhwach's abilities through his knowledge he got after he copied his abilities and Royd had pretty huge reiatsu when he could use them in battle.
- Could you explain how is that completely wrong?
- Why would he not be weaker? Yamamoto got weaker as well. His power depends on how much souls he absorb.
- Again, Ichibe don't outclass Yamamoto. Ichibe was always inferior to Yhwach, while Yamamoto was able to beat him. Even if that's weaker form than that of 1000 years ago. Tho, Hashwalth said that Yhwach in the past used his schrift.



- Arrow is spirit weapon, just like his sword...



- It's not that Royd exhausted Yamamoto, but it's that Zanka no Tachi exhausted Yamamoto.
- This is first time I'm seeing someone saying that Yamamoto is not top tier. Yamamoto is definition of the top tier.
- Some characters are just stronger than others. Aizen (who were supposed to be well versed in the ways of the shinigamis) were trashed by Ichigo. Almighty Yhwach > Bankai Yamamoto > Base Yhwach > Shikai Yamamoto > Exhausted Yamamoto. What Yhwach "one-shotted" was less that 10% of Yamamoto considering that he hasn't used his shikai, and was exhausted.



- According to Aizen, Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest zanpakuto.
- When it comes to feats of zanpakutos, there is no better feat than being able to destroy whole Soul Society with just heat.



- That's alone two counters, you listed.
- Aizen said it, which is not compared to Yamamoto's power, but compare to RJ's power, because Yamamoto is not it.
- Yamamoto respected his powers. Yamamoto was pretty sure that he can take down Aizen with just his abilities, after he feelt his reiatsu. Which mean that Yamamoto actually wasn't really aware of Aizen's reaitasu before that. Also Aizen is dirty player, that's one more reason why did Yama tried suicide technique.
- When you say that someone is stronger than you, than that battle will not end "quick".



Heat is power of his zanpakuto. Just like Ichigo zanpakuto can fire various blast. When Ichigo's blast can destroy dimesnion than I would acknowledge that as same feat.



I don't disagree with reiatsu method, but I don't see what that have to do with what you did here.
Ichigo wasn't able to negate Aizen's kido, he "destroyed" it. And both Aizen and Ichigo weren't just shinigamis at that time. If you want to agrue about "transcedent" reiatsu thing, than I will give you a tons of arguments, why that's not simple as you think..

actually, ryod doesn't copy abilities, lyod copies abilities and power. if you go back and read the fight, you would see that lyod only did the basic quincy arrow and that one spell. but all in all, ryod is a pretty powerful quincy, considering he fodderized kenpachi. considering ryod could fodderize the likes of kenpachi, there is zero chance yama would beat him with just shikai, zero chance.

remember that part of juha bachs revival henched on the fact he had to do a ashwalen. that means he absorbed the powers of all of the half blood quincies. who knows how many half bloods there were when he did that. not to mention he took masaki's powers as well, who was pure blood. although she had been tainted by a hollow. so juha has plenty of power. not to mention anybody he gives his powers to, like the arrancar at the beggining of the war arc, when they die the powers go back to him plus more. so he is hella strong right now. what chap does it say he used the A against yama?

you misunderstand, i don't mean to say that yama is not a top tier character. what i'm saying is, we've only seen yama fight against shunshui/ukitaki, wanderweis, ayon and ryod. shunshui and ukitaki have shown almost nothing this entire manga and won't be on anybodies top tier list, at least not high on it. wanderweis was kinda a joke for anybody not named visord(visords suck), ayon has brute force but the likes of kirge dealt with him. ryod is pretty powerful, but not top of the line powerful. my point being, when he finally faced someone who can match or surpass him in power, he just stands there and get one shotted. he literally tries nothing when he should know tons of things. that's the point i'm trying to make with that. not that i don't consider him powerful.

aizen and yama as far as i remember aizen basically said it's possible that you could beat me, so i don't want to take that chance, so i made wanderweiss. also, it wasn't so much that he thought that he would be able to beat him 1v1 in a fight, but maybe that his suicide attack would kill him, which maybe it would have. although with that being said, aizen wasn't the least bit scared that the flames that came from wanderweiss would kill him. he was only really concerned with the surrounding area. sure, i may have exaggerated when i said quick. my point was, even with yama's offensive abilities, there is just 2 ways to get around the whole completer hypnosis thing. had he been fightiung seriously, and lets be honest he wasn't because he knew he had wanderweiss, that aizen could have done a number of things to take out yama.

what you are failing to realize about yama's bankai, it's not some attack he does that destroys the demensions. it's because he constantly is releasing the heat of the sun while his bankai is active. ichigo doesn't have an equivalent power like that. it eould be like ichigo's body is constantly shooting off getsugas, which would be stupid. so to say just because ichigo's bankai doesn't destroy the dimension means he's weaker than yama is a gross misunderstanding of their powers and abilities.

i said that ichigo swatted away his kido, thus it had no effect on him. had it been able to have any effect on him, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did, period.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

actually, ryod doesn't copy abilities, lyod copies abilities and power. if you go back and read the fight, you would see that lyod only did the basic quincy arrow and that one spell. but all in all, ryod is a pretty powerful quincy, considering he fodderized kenpachi. considering ryod could fodderize the likes of kenpachi, there is zero chance yama would beat him with just shikai, zero chance.

- Royd don't copy he gets abilities through memories, he was able to use Yhwach's sword..
- When I'm reading now, I understand that you are not aware of bleach power levels. Yamamoto would beat Zaraki without his zanpakuto. Bare hand Yamamoto (without even kido) was able to fodderize Wonderwise, Arrancar more powerful than Nnoitra. Zaraki strugled with Nnoitra.

remember that part of juha bachs revival henched on the fact he had to do a ashwalen. that means he absorbed the powers of all of the half blood quincies. who knows how many half bloods there were when he did that. not to mention he took masaki's powers as well, who was pure blood. although she had been tainted by a hollow. so juha has plenty of power. not to mention anybody he gives his powers to, like the arrancar at the beggining of the war arc, when they die the powers go back to him plus more. so he is hella strong right now. what chap does it say he used the A against yama?

- You still didn't prove why he wouldn't be weaker than 1000 years ago. Considering that there were much more Quicnies around 1000 years ago, it's possible that Yhwach could absorb much more Quincies than, than now, which actually just further my argument here.
- Hashwalth mentioned that "Almighty" is not his newly ability, but that he already used it in the past.

you misunderstand, i don't mean to say that yama is not a top tier character. what i'm saying is, we've only seen yama fight against shunshui/ukitaki, wanderweis, ayon and ryod. shunshui and ukitaki have shown almost nothing this entire manga and won't be on anybodies top tier list, at least not high on it. wanderweis was kinda a joke for anybody not named visord(visords suck), ayon has brute force but the likes of kirge dealt with him. ryod is pretty powerful, but not top of the line powerful. my point being, when he finally faced someone who can match or surpass him in power, he just stands there and get one shotted. he literally tries nothing when he should know tons of things. that's the point i'm trying to make with that. not that i don't consider him powerful.

- It was said that Yamamoto would be able to fodderize both Shunsui and Ukitake at the same time.
- Yamamoto beat WW with just bare hands, WW was hinted to be stronger than any Espada by Starrk, so don't tell me that he is a joke.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Ayon, character that is most likely Espada level character.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Royd, which is why Royd didn't do anything in fight.

aizen and yama as far as i remember aizen basically said it's possible that you could beat me, so i don't want to take that chance, so i made wanderweiss. also, it wasn't so much that he thought that he would be able to beat him 1v1 in a fight, but maybe that his suicide attack would kill him, which maybe it would have. although with that being said, aizen wasn't the least bit scared that the flames that came from wanderweiss would kill him. he was only really concerned with the surrounding area. sure, i may have exaggerated when i said quick. my point was, even with yama's offensive abilities, there is just 2 ways to get around the whole completer hypnosis thing. had he been fightiung seriously, and lets be honest he wasn't because he knew he had wanderweiss, that aizen could have done a number of things to take out yama.

-

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"Your RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, that goes without a doubt, if we were to fight directly, it's combat ability may exceed that of my own."

If you want most accurate translation, than this is straight from the Herakles,

君のRYUJINJAKKAは最強のZANPAKUTOそれは間違い無い。
There is no doubt that your Ryujin Jakka is the strongest Zanpakuto.
まともに戦えば戦闘の力は私より上だろう。
If we were to fight fair and square, its combat power would be above mine (lit: it would be above me - written in the conditional aspect).

what you are failing to realize about yama's bankai, it's not some attack he does that destroys the demensions. it's because he constantly is releasing the heat of the sun while his bankai is active. ichigo doesn't have an equivalent power like that. it eould be like ichigo's body is constantly shooting off getsugas, which would be stupid. so to say just because ichigo's bankai doesn't destroy the dimension means he's weaker than yama is a gross misunderstanding of their powers and abilities.

You still didn't prove how is Yamamoto unable to destroy dimension. It isn't specific technique, but 15.000.000 degrees are still part of Yamamoto's power.

i said that ichigo swatted away his kido, thus it had no effect on him. had it been able to have any effect on him, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did, period.

I still don't see what that have to do with anything we said.

 

[Memento Mori]

There are some long posts _@:

 

[Ultimateone]

- Royd don't copy he gets abilities through memories, he was able to use Yhwach's sword..
- When I'm reading now, I understand that you are not aware of bleach power levels. Yamamoto would beat Zaraki without his zanpakuto. Bare hand Yamamoto (without even kido) was able to fodderize Wonderwise, Arrancar more powerful than Nnoitra. Zaraki strugled with Nnoitra.



- You still didn't prove why he wouldn't be weaker than 1000 years ago. Considering that there were much more Quicnies around 1000 years ago, it's possible that Yhwach could absorb much more Quincies than, than now, which actually just further my argument here.
- Hashwalth mentioned that "Almighty" is not his newly ability, but that he already used it in the past.



- It was said that Yamamoto would be able to fodderize both Shunsui and Ukitake at the same time.
- Yamamoto beat WW with just bare hands, WW was hinted to be stronger than any Espada by Starrk, so don't tell me that he is a joke.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Ayon, character that is most likely Espada level character.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Royd, which is why Royd didn't do anything in fight.



-

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"Your RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, that goes without a doubt, if we were to fight directly, it's combat ability may exceed that of my own."

If you want most accurate translation, than this is straight from the Herakles,

君のRYUJINJAKKAは最強のZANPAKUTOそれは間違い無い。
There is no doubt that your Ryujin Jakka is the strongest Zanpakuto.
まともに戦えば戦闘の力は私より上だろう。
If we were to fight fair and square, its combat power would be above mine (lit: it would be above me - written in the conditional aspect).



You still didn't prove how is Yamamoto unable to destroy dimension. It isn't specific technique, but 15.000.000 degrees are still part of Yamamoto's power.



I still don't see what that have to do with anything we said.

he was only able to have juha's sword because they are also able to duplicate appearances which includes clothes and other apparel, which the sword ryod had is probably just a regular sword. he did not use any of juha's abilities because he cannot copy abilities as it's not within his power. juha's abilities has less to do with knowledge and more to do with his actual power level and natural abilities.

also, wonderweiss is not more powerful than any espada. did you not watch mashiro fighting on par with him. he is nowhere near as powerful as they are. he has high reiatsu, but actual fighting ability is not on their level. stark fought multiple captain level opponents simultaneously and so did other espada. i'm sorry, you're just way off on him being stronger than nnoitra.

had juha used the almighty ability against yama, than it would basically have been a win for juha. considering how his ability works, it only makes sense that he didn't use it than. also, it was never said that he did an ashwalen in the past. the only reason he had to do it recently was because he needed to recover.

as i have already said, wonderweiss is not stronger than any espada, the proof of that is in the manga and i don't even really need to pick out parts to prove. anybody should be able to back that up. any captain level character can beat ayon. which is why when it has faced someone considered powerful, it has lost. ryod as i have said is strong, but not top tier. he barely did anything against yama. also, consider that he easily took a blow from yama's shikai with just his arm. so yama needed to go bankai against ryod.

in more recent chapters it says that yama has the strongest fire type zanpakuto. as i have said before, there can't really be a strongest zanpakuto as there are way to many variations with zanpakuto abilities. therefore there being one that can exploit the weakness of another.

i never said yama couldn't destroy a dimension. my point was that it doesn't make him stronger than dangai ichigo as ichigo doesn't have a power that is constantly releasing from his body.

as for what the whole dangai ichigo thing had to do with what was said. i had said that he was the strongest character we have seen in the manga. that was how that whole thing even came about, but that's beside the point now.

 

[Ultimateone]

- Royd don't copy he gets abilities through memories, he was able to use Yhwach's sword..
- When I'm reading now, I understand that you are not aware of bleach power levels. Yamamoto would beat Zaraki without his zanpakuto. Bare hand Yamamoto (without even kido) was able to fodderize Wonderwise, Arrancar more powerful than Nnoitra. Zaraki strugled with Nnoitra.



- You still didn't prove why he wouldn't be weaker than 1000 years ago. Considering that there were much more Quicnies around 1000 years ago, it's possible that Yhwach could absorb much more Quincies than, than now, which actually just further my argument here.
- Hashwalth mentioned that "Almighty" is not his newly ability, but that he already used it in the past.



- It was said that Yamamoto would be able to fodderize both Shunsui and Ukitake at the same time.
- Yamamoto beat WW with just bare hands, WW was hinted to be stronger than any Espada by Starrk, so don't tell me that he is a joke.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Ayon, character that is most likely Espada level character.
- Yamamoto easily overpowered Royd, which is why Royd didn't do anything in fight.



-

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"Your RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, that goes without a doubt, if we were to fight directly, it's combat ability may exceed that of my own."

If you want most accurate translation, than this is straight from the Herakles,

君のRYUJINJAKKAは最強のZANPAKUTOそれは間違い無い。
There is no doubt that your Ryujin Jakka is the strongest Zanpakuto.
まともに戦えば戦闘の力は私より上だろう。
If we were to fight fair and square, its combat power would be above mine (lit: it would be above me - written in the conditional aspect).



You still didn't prove how is Yamamoto unable to destroy dimension. It isn't specific technique, but 15.000.000 degrees are still part of Yamamoto's power.



I still don't see what that have to do with anything we said.

he was only able to have juha's sword because they are also able to duplicate appearances which includes clothes and other apparel, which the sword ryod had is probably just a regular sword. he did not use any of juha's abilities because he cannot copy abilities as it's not within his power. juha's abilities has less to do with knowledge and more to do with his actual power level and natural abilities.

also, wonderweiss is not more powerful than any espada. did you not watch mashiro fighting on par with him. he is nowhere near as powerful as they are. he has high reiatsu, but actual fighting ability is not on their level. stark fought multiple captain level opponents simultaneously and so did other espada. i'm sorry, you're just way off on him being stronger than nnoitra.

had juha used the almighty ability against yama, than it would basically have been a win for juha. considering how his ability works, it only makes sense that he didn't use it than. also, it was never said that he did an ashwalen in the past. the only reason he had to do it recently was because he needed to recover.

as i have already said, wonderweiss is not stronger than any espada, the proof of that is in the manga and i don't even really need to pick out parts to prove. anybody should be able to back that up. any captain level character can beat ayon. which is why when it has faced someone considered powerful, it has lost. ryod as i have said is strong, but not top tier. he barely did anything against yama. also, consider that he easily took a blow from yama's shikai with just his arm. so yama needed to go bankai against ryod.

in more recent chapters it says that yama has the strongest fire type zanpakuto. as i have said before, there can't really be a strongest zanpakuto as there are way to many variations with zanpakuto abilities. therefore there being one that can exploit the weakness of another.

i never said yama couldn't destroy a dimension. my point was that it doesn't make him stronger than dangai ichigo as ichigo doesn't have a power that is constantly releasing from his body.

as for what the whole dangai ichigo thing had to do with what was said. i had said that he was the strongest character we have seen in the manga. that was how that whole thing even came about, but that's beside the point now.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

he was only able to have juha's sword because they are also able to duplicate appearances which includes clothes and other apparel, which the sword ryod had is probably just a regular sword. he did not use any of juha's abilities because he cannot copy abilities as it's not within his power. juha's abilities has less to do with knowledge and more to do with his actual power level and natural abilities.

- Who is sword someone's appearance? Sword is spirit weapon. Royd copied his powers thought memories. He got knowledge of everything Yhwach ever done and learned. So he could do Yhwach's abilities as "sword" maybe some spells as long as his reiatsu capacity can support that. He couldn't use "Almighty" since it's only unique to Yhwach and he cannot use it.

also, wonderweiss is not more powerful than any espada. did you not watch mashiro fighting on par with him. he is nowhere near as powerful as they are. he has high reiatsu, but actual fighting ability is not on their level. stark fought multiple captain level opponents simultaneously and so did other espada. i'm sorry, you're just way off on him being stronger than nnoitra.

- When WW arrived Starrk said that this guy is Aizen's trump card and that he arrived, because this battle needs to be finished quickly. Which mean that WW is strongest espada.
- So, Mashiro fought equally with WW and that make WW weak? No that make Mashiro strong.
It's not that Mashiro fought equal with WW, it's that WW is stupid, which is lack. WW is the sort of the guy like Kenpachi, how fight goes he "gets stronger" if I can call it that way. Zaraki at the first couldn't cut through Nnoitra's hierro but in the end he was able because he used to it. Don't forget that other Visoreds like Lisa were able to fight against Tercera Espada equally. By this, this would make Tier just VC level. And don't forget that WW beaten Kensei in base. (no one noticed reiatsu difference to say that he used his ressurection). WW is strongest Arrancar.

had juha used the almighty ability against yama, than it would basically have been a win for juha. considering how his ability works, it only makes sense that he didn't use it than. also, it was never said that he did an ashwalen in the past. the only reason he had to do it recently was because he needed to recover.

Why do you think it would basically been a win for Yhwach? Yhwach will be defeated in the end by Ichigo, so there is already a good reason to believe that there is someone strong to counter Almighty. Yhwach has his SWP list, we still don't know what is criteria to be SWP, maybe it's exaclty ability to counter Almighty. Yamamoto was strong to be one, but didn't make to the list because he became soft.

as i have already said, wonderweiss is not stronger than any espada, the proof of that is in the manga and i don't even really need to pick out parts to prove. anybody should be able to back that up. any captain level character can beat ayon. which is why when it has faced someone considered powerful, it has lost. ryod as i have said is strong, but not top tier. he barely did anything against yama. also, consider that he easily took a blow from yama's shikai with just his arm. so yama needed to go bankai against ryod.

- I already covered WW's thing.
- Loosing to Shikai Yamamoto is nothing that put down Ayon. Ayon was able to feat numeros VCs during FKT and trashed Quilge Opie. Quilge Opie that put good fight against Ichigo (2x more powerful than captain in the FKT).
- His arm was bleeding. Also Yamamoto's strongest attack is Ennetsu Jigoku (shikai), he didn't use it in the fight against Royd.

in more recent chapters it says that yama has the strongest fire type zanpakuto. as i have said before, there can't really be a strongest zanpakuto as there are way to many variations with zanpakuto abilities. therefore there being one that can exploit the weakness of another.

I don't remember that... Could you show me page of that, I could be worng.

Weakness of another, could be countered by amount of reiatsu you have.

i never said yama couldn't destroy a dimension. my point was that it doesn't make him stronger than dangai ichigo as ichigo doesn't have a power that is constantly releasing from his body.

as for what the whole dangai ichigo thing had to do with what was said. i had said that he was the strongest character we have seen in the manga. that was how that whole thing even came about, but that's beside the point now.

Could you explain to me why did you think that? Ichigo being the strongest?