Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

[Niwdog]

No, he obviously doesn't need Susano to use the items. But that is besides the point. The reason why Black Zetsu exclaimed that Itachi is invincible is because of the combination of Susano + Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade. Not just because Itachi possesses them. He didn't state that the items are invincible.

We also don't know how much chakra wielding these items exhaust without a medium like Susano'o. The event of Itachi using these items without Susano was never introduced, so the point you're trying to make is more or less non-sequitur.

Yata Mirror is also not ninjutsu; it's a spiritual weapon.

Hmmmm, that's true. You could be right there. The only time Itachi has used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o was when he was an Edo. But if Orochimaru wanted to use it, could it really exhaust that much chakra? At the same time, I agree with what you're saying. There really is no way to know at all how much chakra is required to use the items.

 

[Forget Me Not]

Hmmmm, that's true. You could be right there. The only time Itachi has used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o was when he was an Edo. But if Orochimaru wanted to use it, could it really exhaust that much chakra? At the same time, I agree with what you're saying. There really is no way to know at all how much chakra is required to use the items.

Yes, indeed. Also when has he used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o? He's always used it with Susano'o to my knowledge.

 

[Nupp]

Are you saying Itachi's Susano is superior to Madara's PS? Because if so please re-think your stance. Or better yet re-read this thread.

Those items are far from invincible. Itachi is also far from invincible.

Black Zetsu was made at a time Madara had his perfect susano and outright called Itachi invincible, you are simply a Madara fanboy

 

[Forget Me Not]

Black Zetsu was made at a time Madara had his perfect susano and outright called Itachi invincible, you are simply a Madara fanboy

What does your post have to do with anything? He didn't "outright" call Itachi invincible. Are you stupid? It's a consensus in this thread that this was hyperbole. Did you even read the OP?

If I'm a Madara fanboy is that why I've supported Itachi throughout this thread? Is that why I'm sporting an Itachi avatar? Just because I search for the truth in its purest form doesn't mean I'm opposed to any character. The fact that you even made this post leads me to believe you are the only fanboy here.

Simply a biased, mindless fanboy.

 

[sagedog]

Gotta give it to Itachi nobody else has these tools

 

[thegame]

Yeah I always agreed on this, this is why, Itachi can't be beaten with force. Why else would he be so excessive specialized in Genjutsu? The only thing that can possibly penetrate the shield, would be genjutsu, since it doesn't move in any spiritual or physical form, when it reaches its target.

Good thread Owarji, you proved it solidly, though I don't completely see 100 % proof that it protects 360 degrees (since we don't see all way around), but it would be weird, if it took the shape of a quarter hollow sphere, and couldn't move that to a half hollow sphere.

Question is, is the seal automatic life Susanoo? Or is it Itachis will? Depending on this, it would still be possible to get past the shield (from underground or using diversion, etc.).

The last thing is, yeah it does protect against dust release, but it's not like it can deflect the 360 degrees dust release to the outside of the box, so still has no danger to Onoki (given he uses this form of it, if he uses the cylindrical, he will still be protected, since it would just be reflected into his own, however, he would be in quite a ****ty situation xd given he can't move and will just deplete his chakra ). However, the chakra use of dust release exceeds that of Susanoo (at least for the time given during dust release compared to susanoo in the same amount of time), thus in terms of chakra levels, Itachi would last longer.

Anyway gj plus rep.

 

[Draphsin]

Jinton beats a susanoo with yata mrror simply because a shield cant defend from all angles while dust release is a jutsu that attacks from all angles

I DARE someone to prove me wrong...

 

[Nupp]

What does your post have to do with anything? He didn't "outright" call Itachi invincible. Are you stupid? It's a consensus in this thread that this was hyperbole. Did you even read the OP?

If I'm a Madara fanboy is that why I've supported Itachi throughout this thread? Is that why I'm sporting an Itachi avatar? Just because I search for the truth in its purest form doesn't mean I'm opposed to any character. The fact that you even made this post leads me to believe you are the only fanboy here.

Simply a biased, mindless fanboy.

I don't think a group of strangers who never met get to decide how the writer of a manga intended his work to be taken.... This thread can think what it likes but I have never seen black Zetsu use a hyperbole at any other point and even if he was exaggerating i'm sure if Madara's perfect susano was better than Itachi's with the spirit items then he would not have been as amazed or impressed....

To outright say Madara's Susano is better than Itachi's given we have seen very little of both either means you are swayed to one side out of favoritism or you read FAR to much into what little we have seen of them.... I had given your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was favoritism rather than making wild assumptions off so little evidence but if that's not the case then fair enough.

 

[Forget Me Not]

I don't think a group of strangers who never met get to decide how the writer of a manga intended his work to be taken.... This thread can think what it likes but I have never seen black Zetsu use a hyperbole at any other point and even if he was exaggerating i'm sure if Madara's perfect susano was better than Itachi's with the spirit items then he would not have been as amazed or impressed....

Hyperbole is actually fairly common in Literature. It happens all the time. In almost any manga series. It isn't hard to determine what his writing means.

I also don't get how you see it that way. Susano'o w/ Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade is NO laughing matter. Why wouldn't he compliment it amidst the battle as such? There is no comparison to be made in his statement. Madara's PS didn't have anything to do with that fight.

To outright say Madara's Susano is better than Itachi's given we have seen very little of both either means you are swayed to one side out of favoritism or you read FAR to much into what little we have seen of them.... I had given your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was favoritism rather than making wild assumptions off so little evidence but if that's not the case then fair enough.

Madara's regular Susano'o isn't better than Itachi's with the legendary weapons. His PS, however, is based off of feats. Can Itachi's Susano'o defeat the 5 kages? Most likely not. How about reshape entire maps? What Itachi's Susano'o did to Orochimaru in like 1 min it would take a single stroke with Madara's.

We have seen pretty much entirely what Itachi's Susano'o can do. Even with the small glimpse we've seen of PS it is actually very easy to draw this conclusion.

I'm sorry, but if anyone can say Itachi's Susano'o > PS, they're either reading a different manga or don't understand the manga presented to them.

 

[Nupp]

Hyperbole is actually fairly common in Literature. It happens all the time. In almost any manga series. It isn't hard to determine what his writing means.

I also don't get how you see it that way. Susano'o w/ Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade is NO laughing matter. Why wouldn't he compliment it amidst the battle as such? There is no comparison to be made in his statement. Madara's PS didn't have anything to do with that fight.




Madara's regular Susano'o isn't better than Itachi's with the legendary weapons. His PS, however, is based off of feats. Can Itachi's Susano'o defeat the 5 kages? Most likely not. How about reshape entire maps? What Itachi's Susano'o did to Orochimaru in like 1 min it would take a single stroke with Madara's.

We have seen pretty much entirely what Itachi's Susano'o can do. Even with the small glimpse we've seen of PS it is actually very easy to draw this conclusion.

I'm sorry, but if anyone can say Itachi's Susano'o > PS, they're either reading a different manga or don't understand the manga presented to them.

Yea if he was not about to die like he was against Sasuke.... Let's say Edo Itachi VS the 5 Kage then yea he probably could beat them all.... I'm well aware of how often hyperboles are used, for example Madara used one when he said his perfect susano could destroy all creation. All we saw of it was one sword swing which i'm sure people could argue the Yata mirror could block.

Like I said we simply don't know enough about it to know for sure, we never even saw Itachi fight using his full power.... Like not ever, he clearly went easy on Sasuke and intended from the start to lose, he was outright avoiding his full power against Kabuto and he never needed his full power against Nagato.

So can you 100% say Itachi could not have used perfect Susano in his edo form? Can you say for sure that the perfect Susano even has more moves than the previous versions? Can you say for sure that the Yata mirror can't block any moves it may have?

I'd bet a years wages that you can't at this point in time.... You don't know enough about either Susano to make that claim, Kishi could go either way with their Susano's without making a plot hole so don't state your thoughts as facts.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Kamui vs Yata Mirror is interesting.

I don't think it could warp the mirror itself. There's nothing physically there for it to warp. As I explained in a post a while back

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, and as Kakashi has stated in the past

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, he can put however much chakra in to kamui that he desires. The bigger the object, the more chakra he puts in it. So we know that he has to base his kamui off the physical size of the object. I imagine weight, along with height and width effects his decision. That sounds logical enough.

So determining how much chakra he would have to use to warp the Yata Mirror would be where Kakashi's/Kamui's first issue would come in. As Owarij showed, it can change it's size to protect the user. Now the 2nd issue comes in the fact is the Yata Mirror even capable of being warped, as it is not a physical object. Going off this definition/image that Owarij showed in his first post:

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The answer would seem to be no. What I would find interesting is could the kamui "pierce through" or "ignore" the yata mirror and suck in whatever is being protected by it. It is stated that there is "no defense" against the technique. Could the Yata Mirror prevent whatever it's protecting from being sucked in to the other dimension? That would be what I would be interested in finding out.

 

[Forget Me Not]

Yea if he was not about to die like he was against Sasuke.... Let's say Edo Itachi VS the 5 Kage then yea he probably could beat them all.... I'm well aware of how often hyperboles are used, for example Madara used one when he said his perfect susano could destroy all creation. All we saw of it was one sword swing which i'm sure people could argue the Yata mirror could block.

So you're saying Edo Itachi could defeat the 5 kages? I'm sorry, I can no longer take you seriously. Based on feats this is wholly wrong.

Like I said we simply don't know enough about it to know for sure, we never even saw Itachi fight using his full power.... Like not ever, he clearly went easy on Sasuke and intended from the start to lose, he was outright avoiding his full power against Kabuto and he never needed his full power against Nagato.

Itachi has never used his full power in a fight? This is also wrong. We've already seen nearly all of his arsenal against Sasuke, Izanami exempt.

And Itachi didn't hold EVERYTHING back against Kabuto. Not even close. You are blowing Kishi's writing beyond epic proportions. And he *did* use his full power against Nagato. And ultimately that wasn't even enough. That's why he had help from Naruto and Bee. He wasn't able to take out Chibaku Tensei by himself.

You are overhyping Itachi and giving him feats he doesn't really have. And I'm sure mostly everyone would agree on this much.

So can you 100% say Itachi could not have used perfect Susano in his edo form? Can you say for sure that the perfect Susano even has more moves than the previous versions? Can you say for sure that the Yata mirror can't block any moves it may have?

What? Are you now suggesting Itachi could have possibly used PS? You have officially solidified yourself as an Itachi fanboy. Almost everything you've said has already been refuted..even by the OP indirectly.

PS's sheer horsepower alone cements it as the superior Susano'o. That's why it's called PERFECT Susano'o and Itachi's isn't.

Another reason why Itachi's Susano'o can't be better than Madara's is because he has stamina limitations. MS also pays a heavy toll on the user. So he wouldn't even be able to maintain his Susano'o for nearly long enough to compete with Madara's PS.

I'd bet a years wages that you can't at this point in time.... You don't know enough about either Susano to make that claim, Kishi could go either way with their Susano's without making a plot hole so don't state your thoughts as facts.

Kishi has given us sufficient evidence and information to make all of the conclusions that have been made in this thread. You are clearly in denial.

And you clearly have no idea how literature or writing works. You woefully misused the term "plot hole".

 

[thegame]

Jinton beats a susanoo with yata mrror simply because a shield cant defend from all angles while dust release is a jutsu that attacks from all angles

I DARE someone to prove me wrong...

Try reading the actual original post of this thread, and you will realize, your comment is invalid.

 

[thegame]

Kamui vs Yata Mirror is interesting.

I don't think it could warp the mirror itself. There's nothing physically there for it to warp. As I explained in a post a while back

You must be registered for see links

, and as Kakashi has stated in the past

You must be registered for see links

, he can put however much chakra in to kamui that he desires. The bigger the object, the more chakra he puts in it. So we know that he has to base his kamui off the physical size of the object. I imagine weight, along with height and width effects his decision. That sounds logical enough.

So determining how much chakra he would have to use to warp the Yata Mirror would be where Kakashi's/Kamui's first issue would come in. As Owarij showed, it can change it's size to protect the user. Now the 2nd issue comes in the fact is the Yata Mirror even capable of being warped, as it is not a physical object. Going off this definition/image that Owarij showed in his first post:

You must be registered for see images

The answer would seem to be no. What I would find interesting is could the kamui "pierce through" or "ignore" the yata mirror and suck in whatever is being protected by it. It is stated that there is "no defense" against the technique. Could the Yata Mirror prevent whatever it's protecting from being sucked in to the other dimension? That would be what I would be interested in finding out.

Hmm, you seem to be forgetting major feats regarding kamui. Lets see it as a minor "hole" from one dimension to the other. Kakashi can open this hole, wherever he looks. Though he probably cannot use it behind objects, which he can't see through, it is highly possible that he can use it on the other side of transparent objects. I see no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Kamui, as I interpret it, opens at the location, Kakashi focuses the vision of his eye at. So focusing this behind some transparent object would be possible. Now the databook does not give a good description of how the mechanism for Kamui work. Do some chakra move from Kakashis eye and to the location, where he opens the hole? These are important factors, to determine, how it works. But if chakra was moving, we should see it. Which is why I believe it is an instant, sort of like Amaterasu, which also appears, where the user looks at. In general this is very characteristic for MS techniques. So I think even Amaterasu can "get through" the yata mirror. Well it doesn't slip through, it simply appears on the other side of it. However, this Itachi could just put out, but Kamui is a different story. IMO Kamui can beat the wielder of the mirror.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Hmm, you seem to be forgetting major feats regarding kamui. Lets see it as a minor "hole" from one dimension to the other. Kakashi can open this hole, wherever he looks. Though he probably cannot use it behind objects, which he can't see through, it is highly possible that he can use it on the other side of transparent objects. I see no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Kamui, as I interpret it, opens at the location, Kakashi focuses the vision of his eye at. So focusing this behind some transparent object would be possible. Now the databook does not give a good description of how the mechanism for Kamui work. Do some chakra move from Kakashis eye and to the location, where he opens the hole? These are important factors, to determine, how it works. But if chakra was moving, we should see it. Which is why I believe it is an instant, sort of like Amaterasu, which also appears, where the user looks at. In general this is very characteristic for MS techniques. So I think even Amaterasu can "get through" the yata mirror. Well it doesn't slip through, it simply appears on the other side of it. However, this Itachi could just put out, but Kamui is a different story. IMO Kamui can beat the wielder of the mirror.

The issue with that would be the mirror covering the entire body of the wielder. It would simply depend on how fast Kakashi warps it(it's shown he can warp humans practically instantly). However, the size of susanoo would play in to it, as susanoo is a physical being and a large one at that. Kakashi managed to use kamui to warp the gyuki at an extremely fast rate, but I dunno if it would be quick enough to warp before the mirror can protect the user from behind.

 

[khaydz5]

^ Never read the thread, you'd see scans of it doing that


@the rest, I'm in my HCI class , so when I get home i'll reply

I did a quick read through..
People do realize ASTRAL attacks are listed under the things yata mirror can defend from....
The ONLY astral attack in the databook or displayed in the manga since the last db was KAMUI...

can you post a page where it says KAMUI is an astral attack?

also do you believe that this shield can counter gravity like CT? lol and this attack is categorized as what? material?astral?ninjutsu?physical?

lol you're pulling everything out of your butt.

 

[Forget Me Not]

can you post a page where it says KAMUI is an astral attack?

also do you believe that this shield can counter gravity like CT? lol and this attack is categorized as what? material?astral?ninjutsu?physical?

lol you're pulling everything out of your butt.

I've already explained how I think CT can counter Yata Mirror.

I think Owariji is already aware of its weaknesses.. It's clear that it isn't invincible. If anyone paid any attention to the thread this has already been pretty much summed up a while ago.

 

[fastrthnwind]

:sy:

How the hell are my comments not getting recognized in this thread?

Anyways, concerning kamui vs yata mirror. Kamui is a s/t jutsu that trancends any form of physical or ethereal jutsu because it is neither a physical attack or ethereal in nature. It literally alters reality to the user's desires. Because physical and etheral beings and objects are subject to reality, they can be subject to the reality warping abilities of Kamui. The only thing that could counter Kamui is another reality altering jutsu such as another kamui, or, possibly izanagi.

 

[Forget Me Not]

:sy:

How the hell are my comments not getting recognized in this thread?

Anyways, concerning kamui vs yata mirror. Kamui is a s/t jutsu that trancends any form of physical or ethereal jutsu because it is neither a physical attack or ethereal in nature. It literally alters reality to the user's desires. Because physical and etheral beings and objects are subject to reality, they can be subject to the reality warping abilities of Kamui. The only thing that could counter Kamui is another reality altering jutsu such as another kamui, or, possibly izanagi.

This.

On top of that, someone like Obito could just use his S/T to warp where Itachi is and then Kamui him instead of directly using Kamui on Susano'o/Yata Mirror.

Don't take it personally man, a LOT of people have been ignoring a lot of critical posts made in this thread.

 

[FleeOnSight]

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