Urm no.. its not something greater, there is nothing greater, every attack falls under a particular category. Kamui and gedo mazo's soul dragon both do not exist simply in a physical state.... Once again, you would need something that exists on the same level as those formentioned jutsu, to counter them... which is exactly what the mirror is ... Kamui won't "distort" the mirror as the mirror is capable of producing attributes or characteristics to completely render the incoming ability useless...
Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release
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Urm no.. its not something greater, there is nothing greater, every attack falls under a particular category. Kamui and gedo mazo's soul dragon both do not exist simply in a physical state.... Once again, you would need something that exists on the same level as those formentioned jutsu, to counter them... which is exactly what the mirror is ... Kamui won't "distort" the mirror as the mirror is capable of producing attributes or characteristics to completely render the incoming ability useless...
Forget Me Not
Active member
Did you even understand my post? You're taking it out of context. I never said it's necessary for Susano to hold them. I'm saying when Itachi uses those items he uses Susano as his medium.
In the scenario of OP's argument Itachi is using Susano. Itachi has always been seen using Susano with the legendary weapons.
And Itachi not using Susano to wield these legendary weapons makes him far more vulnerable than with Susano, might I add. I hope you realize Itachi uses them with his Susano for a reason - it's more advantageous.
Stop trying to push an event that never happened - Itachi hasn't used these weapons without Susano so why would any battle instance have Itachi using the weapons without using Susano as well?
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fastrthnwind
Active member
OK Kamui is not SPIRITUAL in any way because it is not an attack that holds ANY form, either physical or spiritual. It is a warp in reality which binds the spiritual and physical existence.
I just googled astral
astral:
1.Of, connected with, or resembling the stars: "astral navigation".
2.Of or relating to a supposed nonphysical realm of existence in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart.
It states that it is of the nonphysical realm of existance and is said that it is the couterpart of the human body.
A perfect example of an something that is astral is Ino's mind control switch and Dan's Ghost transformation technique.
Kamui is above even that because it can essentially warp its existence through the space/time continuum. Only another reality warping jutsu can stop Kamui.
I just googled astral
astral:
1.Of, connected with, or resembling the stars: "astral navigation".
2.Of or relating to a supposed nonphysical realm of existence in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart.
It states that it is of the nonphysical realm of existance and is said that it is the couterpart of the human body.
A perfect example of an something that is astral is Ino's mind control switch and Dan's Ghost transformation technique.
Kamui is above even that because it can essentially warp its existence through the space/time continuum. Only another reality warping jutsu can stop Kamui.
You just contradicted your entire post
the fact that it isn't an attack that holds and form, labels it spirtual, you should google the definition of what spiritual is
Once kamui isn't TANGIBLE, it HAS to be spiritual, as there is nothing else ...
its not an incomming projectile. it appears where the users line of sight is and you havent convinced me with those extremely vague definitions and even then, it only mentions space and time on 1 plane. That means that kamui cant be astral because for it to work you need to manipulate properties of the physical world. What makes it greater than the soul dragon is that it manipulates physical properties and spiritual properties
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fastrthnwind
Active member
Your problem is that you think that there is only physical and spiritual attacks. Well, there is more to it than that. Kamui manipulates s/t itself, which both the Spiritual and the Physical exist in. Its in another class of its own simply because it can alter the existance of anything within its defined barrier.
Here is the level of attacks
SPACE/TIME - This is the next highest level that is neither perceivable through physical or spiritual means.
^
SPIRITUAL - This is a level that is out of human perception, but is still in existence in the universe at a set place and time
^
PHYSICAL - Basic level that humans can perceive with their senses
The only level beyond that would be anything that is Omnipresent, meaning that they exist in ALL levels of reality even beyond our own. That would the level of any DEITY or GODS if they existed.
You're crossing borders..ofc in the NARUTO manga definitions may vary..
Totsuka and Yata mirror as stated by kishi are SPIRITUAL weapons, and yet they can still make contact with PHYSICAL things..
so your point in saying that just because kamui can come in contact with the physical world is moot... If because of that you consider Kamui a greater thing
then the two items are also on the same level
Oh and I uploaded a scan showing kamui basically travelling to the missle sent at chouji
Read the definition of astral...even S/T jutsu or jutsu relating to other planes and dimensions would lose meaning according to the databook
and its funny, Kamui said in the databook, when translated means "Power of THE Gods" meaning its is the only or one of the only if i'm missing , jutsu that says its a godly power... ofc this is a hyperbole
but whats funny is that in Yata mirrors description , "In the Face of a God's power, all attacks lose their meaning"
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DeViliShChild
Active member
Once again, kamui isn't physical, just like totsuka isn't phyiscal... they can still affect physical things.. that's how it is in naruto... Its one attack, which is a spiritual attack...its an attack above a basic physical/material existence...Just as yata mirror is a defense above a physical/material existence
Not two things in one.. And even if it WAS... the description of yatta mirror states it could have as many attributes changed in order to defend the incoming attack..
fastrthnwind
Active member
I already did read and posted the definition of astral. Astral beings are still not on the same plane of existance as anything that is physical, or percievable through the 5 senses, but they are present in another form of existence.
Kamui has the ability to warp ALL existence because it warps Space/Time, which is something that physical and spiritual beings do not exist outside of. There is always a set point in time and space where anything physical or spiritual resides. Anything that can control that time and space has the definition of GODS power simply because they cannot do anything to stop it due to it being out of their perceivable control
Yata Mirror was given the same description because it could defend against anything of the spiritual nature as well as the physical, but the yata miror itself still exists in one set point in time and space, meaning that it, like any other spiritual object is vulnerable to anything that has the power to control Space/Time, like Kamui can.
fastrthnwind
Active member
This I disagree with
I 100% know you're not going to argue that kamui can carry the Shiku Fujin Shinigami into another place..Or no different than saying kamui would teleport a Ghost into the dimension
Kamui may be able to affect space and time and the phyiscal reality, but not the spiritual
The death god , is an invisible spiritual entity ... not bound by physical laws.. Saying kamui can send it away, is basically the same as saying it can teleport the mirror
According to the db, the user basically sends their chakra at a location , and in that location, a barrier appears which pulls the target in..
The jutsu itself is a space time jutsu, and space and time are woven together by fabric aka matter aka material.. THIS is the reason it can affect physical things..
Yata mirror has ELEMENTS and other properties imbued into it, which once again is a physical thing, and because of this it can defend against elemental attacks etc..
SPIRITUAL entities cannot be affected
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fastrthnwind
Active member
OK the shinigami is a GOD who exists outside of even Space and Time. Kakashi wont be able to Kamui a GOD because a GOD is OMNIPRESENT, or lives on all planes of existence outside of the SPACE/TIME of the universe. It is also considered SPIRITUAL because it is not perceivable through any PHYSICAL means, yet has a FORM that it can take on inside of the S/T realm.
Yata mirror is always in existence in some way, shape, or form in the universe. So it is vulnerable to anything that can control that place in time that it exists, like Kamui.
Kamui does not require the user to send their chakra at a location. Its not even hinted at at all in the DB. It only requires the person to look "beyond" the object or being to Kamui and use the chakra to increase the field of the warp.
SPIRITUAL entities cannot be affected by PHYSICAL means. Only through another spiritual entity, or higher level entity that can affect its very existance such as a S/T user, or a GOD.
Mate.. now you're grasping at straws.. Regardless of being a "god" or not.. its a spiritual entity, which puts your argument in shambles... You argued that kamui would be able to send a spiritual entity into its realm..
You stated kamui is BEYOND just a simple spiritual attack, and that it would be able to send any spiritual or physical thing over
Once again, Kamui wouldn't be able to do that, as it only manipulates SPACE/TIME , which is STILL woven together with fabric.... such a thing wont affect something BEYOND that
Databook said that Yata mirror would defend even against a GOD'S attack..whether or not a god is omni present or not..
PS- Noone said the death god is a omnipresent allpowerful being like the more popular christian God..
A god just means
A superhuman being
Just like long time ago people believed there was a sun god, water god
some Japanese believe in the Death god aka Shinigami, responsible for deaths
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fastrthnwind
Active member
Ive never grasped at straws. I already defined the level of abilities earlier
it went something like this
GODS/DEITIES - Shinigami/GOD
^
SPACE/TIME - Kamui
^
SPIRITUAL - Yata Mirror
^
PHYSICAL - Humans
Something on one level can affect anything below it, but nothing above it.
Did you not read what I mentioned earlier?
The shinigami is spiritual only when inside the confines of the universe, which only happens when someone summons him from the physical world from its omnipresent existance outside of the S/T barriers of the universe.
S/T is not woven to gether with actual fabric. Thats just something to help humans grasp how Space and Time are related and work together to create our universe, which physical and spiritual entities exist in. Only GODS or jutsu that can control S/T are above that level.
Your exaggerating it a lot it's just a retard shield and sword everything can defend against Those weak attacks of sasuke stuff gets exaggerated by time.if that thing was that Op itachi couldn't have used and shaped it that Easly if something is that op no one should be able to use it without being a jinchuuriki and using 2 of it in single time plus susanoo yeah my ass dumbass thread.And itachi doesn't have that much chakra compared to kisames Karin proved that.And kisames chakra is near to 1 bijuus but not higher then it.So those 2 spiritual things are exaggerated a lot I think they are useless.
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^Once again,nowhere in the manga has it stated that the shinigami is an omnipresent god...all we were told is that he it is simply responsible for the souls of people caught in its grasp..
You're assuming that this thing is omni present..
The facts we do know is that it isn't tangible, and it is a SPIRITUAL thing......It would be completely unaffected by kamui
Though it is spiritual,it can make contact with both physical and spiritual things, just like the two spiritual weapons...
As I said, saying kamui would affect yata, is just like saying kamui would affect the death god, or that it would affect a GHOST..
or that it would affect dan's spirit when he uses his jutsu..
The shinigami has his own realm where the souls are stored... just like inside totsuka there is its own realm where sealed souls etc are stored
Didn't understand one thing you said
You're assuming that this thing is omni present..
The facts we do know is that it isn't tangible, and it is a SPIRITUAL thing......It would be completely unaffected by kamui
Though it is spiritual,it can make contact with both physical and spiritual things, just like the two spiritual weapons...
As I said, saying kamui would affect yata, is just like saying kamui would affect the death god, or that it would affect a GHOST..
or that it would affect dan's spirit when he uses his jutsu..
The shinigami has his own realm where the souls are stored... just like inside totsuka there is its own realm where sealed souls etc are stored
.
Didn't understand one thing you said