Wtf?? A black human torch??

Char Aznable

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Oh no! Nick Fury race was changed in the Ultimate comics and now Samuel L. Jackson is portraying him in one of the highest grossing film series of all time!

Oh no Perry White is being played by Lawrence Fishburne! Why are casting directions and executives in Hollywood changing the canon of established characters and relationships? It's not like DC and Marvel don't uproot their entire canon every 5 or 10 years themselves. :p

Seriously who gives a sh!t about Johnny Storm's race. It's not like that is what defines him as a character or a hero. He's an arrogant, self absorbed hothead. A role anyone of any race or *** could play.
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chopstickchakra

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Failed logic. Malcolm X was a real person
Your point being? If I make a movie with a white man named Malcom X and keep his ideals and teachings the same I have not changed anything about him other than his skintone.

@Char The ultimate universe is separate from Earth 616 that's why it's not as big of a deal. Marvel has used a lot of the Ultimate versions including Electro in the most recent Spider Man movies, but A. breaking up a family tie is as about as weird as adding in one(I'm looking at you Arrow tv series) and B. Is It really unreasonable to hope/ask that a comic movie coming out stays true to the source? As for your last statement that's just simply not true, a female could not play Johnny Storm she could play the Human Torch if they established the new Torch is female but once you change the name, race or gender you've essentially made a different character.
 

Char Aznable

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@Char The ultimate universe is separate from Earth 616 that's why it's not as big of a deal. Marvel has used a lot of the Ultimate versions including Electro in the most recent Spider Man movies, but A. breaking up a family tie is as about as weird as adding in one(I'm looking at you Arrow tv series) and B. Is It really unreasonable to hope/ask that a comic movie coming out stays true to the source? As for your last statement that's just simply not true, a female could not play Johnny Storm she could play the Human Torch if they established the new Torch is female but once you change the name, race or gender you've essentially made a different character.
Race doesn't make a character. Recall that the original human torch was an android. An android who was later made in to Vision.

The first FF series didn't stay 100% true to the source material either. Neither do ANY of the X-Men films for that matter. The creative teams behind these movies have taken huge liberties with the comic canon. A black human torch isn't that big of a deal honestly. We have a black spider-man in the ultimate verse and his sales have been strong. Just as good if not better than Amazing Spider-Man's before the title changed to Superior Spider-Man.

Johnny Storm can easily be Jenny Storm; if TPTB were inclined to change the Torches gender. I don't see Michael B Jordan's casting as that big of a deal. I'll take a new interpretation of the FF mythos over the bastardization that Tim Story put forth in 2005 and 2007.
 

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Your point being? If I make a movie with a white man named Malcom X and keep his ideals and teachings the same I have not changed anything about him other than his skintone.

@Char The ultimate universe is separate from Earth 616 that's why it's not as big of a deal. Marvel has used a lot of the Ultimate versions including Electro in the most recent Spider Man movies, but A. breaking up a family tie is as about as weird as adding in one(I'm looking at you Arrow tv series) and B. Is It really unreasonable to hope/ask that a comic movie coming out stays true to the source? As for your last statement that's just simply not true, a female could not play Johnny Storm she could play the Human Torch if they established the new Torch is female but once you change the name, race or gender you've essentially made a different character.
The Human Torch an Nick Fury weren't real people so it shouldn't matter what their color is

Malcom X was a real person with real living relatives that would have an actual reason to be offended if they were to do some shit like that, not because they're a nerd that cares too much about little details
 

chopstickchakra

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wait...........is he not sue's brother anymore?

In this version he's an adopted brother.


Race doesn't make a character. Recall that the original human torch was an android. An android who was later made in to Vision.

The first FF series didn't stay 100% true to the source material either. Neither do ANY of the X-Men films for that matter. The creative teams behind these movies have taken huge liberties with the comic canon. A black human torch isn't that big of a deal honestly. We have a black spider-man in the ultimate verse and his sales have been strong. Just as good if not better than Amazing Spider-Man's before the title changed to Superior Spider-Man.

Johnny Storm can easily be Jenny Storm; if TPTB were inclined to change the Torches gender. I don't see Michael B Jordan's casting as that big of a deal. I'll take a new interpretation of the FF mythos over the bastardization that Tim Story put forth in 2005 and 2007.
You keep bringing up the ultimate verse like that's a valid point, well it isn't. The Ultimate verse was made for the purpose of doing things like this, giving authors free range to experiment with characters. Making a half black half Puerto Rican spiderman in the Ultimate verse does nothing because it doesn't effect Peter Parker, this Johnny Storm impacts 616 Johnny Storm. The movies Nick Fury is not the 616 Fury hence Samuel L. Jackson can play the Ultimate version with no questions(after all the character was designed with him in mind anyhow)

As for the "original" Human Torch, that's clearly a spate character and Johnny Storm did not replace him. The Android Torch was a member of the avengers with no connection to Sue. That's why The Mad Thinker reactivated him to fight Jonnhy and the rest of the 4.

Again "Johnny Storm" can not become "Jenny Storm" in the movies. If the movies went that route they'd be making a new Human Torch not a new Johnny Storm. 616 Johhny Storm is and always will be a white male who is blood sister to Sue Storm, nothing you say or feel can change that. They can reintroduce any number of Human Torches but there is only one 616 Johnny Storm. If the directors wish to say this isn't in the 616 universe then there is no problem at all, however if it's supposed to be 616 then yes they made a mistake.

You seem to think(act) like everyone has a problem with his skin tone. You, sir, are incorrect. Most people take issue with the unnecessary change(and this isn't the first movie to take liberties as you said) The only reason they did this was to widen their audience, it serves no purpose to the story. As a comic fan I just want 1 1 comic movie that follows it to the T.
 

chopstickchakra

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wait...........is he not sue's brother anymore?
The Human Torch an Nick Fury weren't real people so it shouldn't matter what their color is

Malcom X was a real person with real living relatives that would have an actual reason to be offended if they were to do some shit like that, not because they're a nerd that cares too much about little details
His skin tone shouldn't matter it should be about his ideals and beliefs. What if they cast a white actor and added the detail that he had vitiligo as an excuse for the actor. You're just proving my point by fighting the idea of it just so you know.

In real life yes Malcom's skin tone mattered greatly because it influenced his beliefs. However in a movie whose sole purpose is to tell the story and spread the ideas of Malcolm what would it matter the color of the actors skin huh? What if they cast a black male and painted him orange and did the whole movie orange? It would still suck, because it's not the skin tone that's an issue it's the unnecessary changing of details that annoys people.

You seem a little caught up on making sure I'm talking about fictional people so consider this.
If Roots was remade next month, and instead of a black slave family(honestly I never watched Roots I assume they were a family) they are replaced by a white Irish family. Now historically Irish were slaves and were seen as less valuable of slaves then blacks but we don't need to get into that. If they really did this, do you honestly believe it wouldn't be bombarded with hate and asked to be taken off the air?
 
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Char Aznable

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You keep bringing up the ultimate verse like that's a valid point, well it isn't. The Ultimate verse was made for the purpose of doing things like this, giving authors free range to experiment with characters. Making a half black half Puerto Rican spiderman in the Ultimate verse does nothing because it doesn't effect Peter Parker, this Johnny Storm impacts 616 Johnny Storm. The movies Nick Fury is not the 616 Fury hence Samuel L. Jackson can play the Ultimate version with no questions(after all the character was designed with him in mind anyhow)

As for the "original" Human Torch, that's clearly a spate character and Johnny Storm did not replace him. The Android Torch was a member of the avengers with no connection to Sue. That's why The Mad Thinker reactivated him to fight Jonnhy and the rest of the 4.

Again "Johnny Storm" can not become "Jenny Storm" in the movies. If the movies went that route they'd be making a new Human Torch not a new Johnny Storm. 616 Johhny Storm is and always will be a white male who is blood sister to Sue Storm, nothing you say or feel can change that. They can reintroduce any number of Human Torches but there is only one 616 Johnny Storm. If the directors wish to say this isn't in the 616 universe then there is no problem at all, however if it's supposed to be 616 then yes they made a mistake.

You seem to think(act) like everyone has a problem with his skin tone. You, sir, are incorrect. Most people take issue with the unnecessary change(and this isn't the first movie to take liberties as you said) The only reason they did this was to widen their audience, it serves no purpose to the story. As a comic fan I just want 1 1 comic movie that follows it to the T.
Where did it say they were adapting the 616 FF for this movie? No where by my recollection. It's an adaptation ordered by Hollywood. Do you think they care what the fans want? They are not going to make a straight adaptation.

The first FF wasn't a pure 616 adaptation of the FF mythos. Tim Story was against Doctor Doom using robots or learning black magic. So he made him a mutant like the rest of the Four. The first FF didn't fail because it wasn't a pure adaptation of the classic works. It failed because the director lacked vision and was certain he would get a sequel to ramp up the action after Rise of the Silver Surfer. Galactus a giant f*cking cloud?! Give me a break. The same things can be said about Ang Lee's Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, Green Lantern and Superman Returns. They didn't fail because they weren't faithful to the source. They failed because they were movies audiences didn't want to pay to see over and over.

The movies are not beholden to the canon of the comics. Again, look at X-Men and Avengers. Where Avengers' Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are called "miracles" instead of mutants and Magneto is not their father like in the comics. While X-Men's Quicksilver and Wanda are not twins and Piettro is the same age as Erik and Charles in the 60's. The comics are only there as a blureprint source of information for a film adaptation. They are not rigid guidelines for film creators to follow. Johnny Storm is a character, Michael B Jordan is an actor. An actor's job is to make us (the audience) believe he is that character on screen. We don't know what Jordan may bring to the role. He may knock it out of the park. Chris Evans wasn't bad, but the material he was served with didn't help him or the movie.
 

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His skin tone shouldn't matter it should be about his ideals and beliefs. What if they cast a white actor and added the detail that he had vitiligo as an excuse for the actor. You're just proving my point by fighting the idea of it just so you know.

In real life yes Malcom's skin tone mattered greatly because it influenced his beliefs. However in a movie whose sole purpose is to tell the story and spread the ideas of Malcolm what would it matter the color of the actors skin huh? What if they cast a black male and painted him orange and did the whole movie orange? It would still suck, because it's not the skin tone that's an issue it's the unnecessary changing of details that annoys people.

You seem a little caught up on making sure I'm talking about fictional people so consider this.
If Roots was remade next month, and instead of a black slave family(honestly I never watched Roots I assume they were a family) they are replaced by a white Irish family. Now historically Irish were slaves and were seen as less valuable of slaves then blacks but we don't need to get into that. If they really did this, do you honestly believe it wouldn't be bombarded with hate and asked to be taken off the air?
@ Bold, actually it would change the story. Malcolm wouldn't have had to go through the same things he did if he was white.
That logic still doesn't work, Roots was about black slaves even if they were fictional. Making the slaves white would change the focus of the story even if it was historically accurate. Human Torch wasn't real, or based on anything real like Roots, and his color doesn't affect the plot. Take a black fictional character like Lando from The Empire Strikes Back and make him white then we'd be talking about the same thing
 
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chopstickchakra

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Where did it say they were adapting the 616 FF for this movie? No where by my recollection. It's an adaptation ordered by Hollywood. Do you think they care what the fans want? They are not going to make a straight adaptation.

The first FF wasn't a pure 616 adaptation of the FF mythos. Tim Story was against Doctor Doom using robots or learning black magic. So he made him a mutant like the rest of the Four. The first FF didn't fail because it wasn't a pure adaptation of the classic works. It failed because the director lacked vision and was certain he would get a sequel to ramp up the action after Rise of the Silver Surfer. Galactus a giant f*cking cloud?! Give me a break. The same things can be said about Ang Lee's Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, Green Lantern and Superman Returns. They didn't fail because they weren't faithful to the source. They failed because they were movies audiences didn't want to pay to see over and over.

The movies are not beholden to the canon of the comics. Again, look at X-Men and Avengers. Where Avengers' Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are called "miracles" instead of mutants and Magneto is not their father like in the comics. While X-Men's Quicksilver and Wanda are not twins and Piettro is the same age as Erik and Charles in the 60's. The comics are only there as a blureprint source of information for a film adaptation. They are not rigid guidelines for film creators to follow. Johnny Storm is a character, Michael B Jordan is an actor. An actor's job is to make us (the audience) believe he is that character on screen. We don't know what Jordan may bring to the role. He may knock it out of the park. Chris Evans wasn't bad, but the material he was served with didn't help him or the movie.
Galactus is a shapeless entity who takes on an appearance influenced by the inhabitants of each new planet, so seeing him as a cloud traveling to space towards Earth is not anything, not to mention that they added a silhouette of his comic shape in the movie. Ang Lee's Hulk was just bad all around, writing, effects, cast and Daredevil failed because people thought it was fun to mock Affleck, Elektra fell into that trap being a spin off from Daredevil. I am glad you brought DD up though because in it they cast Michael Clark Duncan as kingpin, now let's be honest he's the only actor who could play Kingpin without any visual aid, aside from that it and Elektra were some of the most literal adaptations they made.

Besides the Hulk and Superman Returns(never watched it) the movies you mentioned were some of the more faithful adaptations has put out and the fact they didn't do as well as others like Avengers means two things. 1. Studios do better when they alter a comic movie to target a general audience rather than cater to die hard fans and 2. Because they do better they will continue doing it this way.
Speaking of the Avengers though, and since you brought up Wanda and Pietro, that can be answered in a simple(political) way. Fox owns the X-Men franchise so Marvel can not use any mutant likeness in their movies which is why they are disregarding the familial relation between Wanda/Pietro and Magneto(Which is absolute bullshit)

Now obviously the Xmen franchise has had some inconsistencies, such as Alex Summers existing before Scott Summers let alone paling around with young Xavier and Magneto, and other movies as well, but just because they got away with it in the past doesn't justify it's continued practice. As for Michael B. Jordan, he's a fine actor I liked him in "That Awkward Moment" and I know he's cast as the new Torch but I'm not talking about him. You keep mentioning his name, he's not relevant to my argument. They could have cast Kevin Hart or Denzel Washington or whoever, my problem isn't with the choice of actor it's the change. I'd be just as upset if they decided to make the Torch female or disabled or an alien.
 

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@ Bold, actually it would change the story. Malcolm wouldn't have had to go through the same things he did if he was white.
That logic still doesn't work, Roots was about black slaves even if they were fictional. Making the slaves white would change the focus of the story even if it was historically accurate. Human Torch wasn't real, or based on anything real like Roots, and his color doesn't affect the plot. Take a black fictional character like Lando from The Empire Strikes Back and make him white then we'd be talking about the same thing
@your@bold you either didn't read or missed the point. If in a movie about Malcom X , they cast John Smith and he happens to be a white actor it wouldn't effect the dialogue written. The events prior to the start of the movie would have still happened to the real life Malcom X, this is a fictitious movie. Everything that happened to Malcom would be depicted in the movie they would just be experienced by an actor who has a white skin tone. Picking an actor doesn't change anything that actually happened to Malcolm throughout his life. What it does do, is diminish the credibility of the movie.
 
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