Incorrect since the Juubi that was sealed inside Obito was incomplete, not to mention that the Juubi is in control of its Jinchuuriki and not the other way around therefore your premise is invalid.
Oh and btw, take a look at this:
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Who were the descendants of the Younger Son? that's right the Senjus, did it say the Senjus and Uzumakis? No.
The Uzumakis did not descend from the Younger Son, quite the contrary the apical ancestor of both Elder and Younger Sons was an Uzumaki: Rikudou Sennin
Oh, its being complete, and in control now is it? You see im not in the least bothered by your incessant babbling, since in order to prove thatbeing in control of a being such as the juubi causes a change in a hosts eyes the burden of proof is on you, for which there is no substantiated evidence. What exactly does your link prove? Did it say they werent descended from the younger son either? Lol. And nice to know youre butthurt enough to neg rep for the rare post of sanity that contradicts your piss poor logic.
A little history for you; in Japan, families were also referred to as CLANS. Rikudou was born into an era of war, and in that time there were clans (Ancient times). Logical deduction concludes that he was born into a clan and stemmed from a clan. Evidence suggests it was the Uzumaki.
Also, Obito has been the Jinchuriki for literally seconds and it is the incomplete Juubi. That isn't enough time for any sort of change to manifest and the incomplete state of the Juubi suggests the manifestation of the Rinnegan is in its final form.
Actually it debunks everything. Had you bothered to read and process the threads, you wouldve realized that i spoke of SHINOBI clans, and why the manga disproves that they ever existed prior to the sage.
So provide proof for that speculation. Why would there be that change? Did naruto experience ANY change in his eyes when he was able to fully control kurama(a part of the juubi)? I guess an idiot like douche obito wouldve made gullible fools like you believe that this was because it was incomplete kyuubi as well lol.
The sage could not have been an uzumaki, why wasnt a single senju or uchiha shown with red hair? Why were the uzumaki mentioned as distant blood relatives of the senju, as opposed to ascendants? But w.e, not that any of this clan business is relevant to the manga anyway, i just found it hilarious that so many people blindly believe the nonsense that idiit sprouts, and even fall for his pathetic excuses when his statements are flat rejected by the manga.
The Juubi is in charge right now and its mind is so simple you can classify it as a Moron in the intelligence factor. It acts on instinct and it instinct tell it that the most daggers enemy is Naruto Uzumaki.
Its obvious that the Rinnegan is a purified from of the Juubi's power. It will only appear once the juubi's power is purified and is controlled by the host not by the prisoner. Not to mention that it is very likely that the juubi must be in its final form for it to truly manifest.
Why everyone keeps going on about it being impossible for the Uzumaki to be around at the time of the sage is beyond me. Its likely all the big clans have been around for a great deal of time, certain families around the world can trace their lineage back thousands of years. Royal families or nobles can do this quite easily.
Chakra existed back then before the sage and was likely utilized by practitioners, most likely a part of clans which horded what little knowledge they could glean on the subject of chakra. Chakra wielding Samurai also likely existed, but as can be seen even in Naruto's era they use it in a primitive manner using it in a very limited way.
The Uzumaki likely already had the basics of Fuinjutsu understood or invented in that era. Once the sage was born he pulled all this info together to figure out what the heck was going on with this chakra business. It is impossible for one man no matter how intelligent to single-handedly found an entire school of thought from scratch within his own lifetime. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. Every scientist or thinker has always built on what has come before, there has never been a great enough genius to be able to manage such a super human feat. Its like saying the very first scientist discovered physics in its totality and then gave birth to advanced technology ALL WITHIN HIS OWN LIFETIME.
For the sage to come up with the seal he used on the Juubi he needed for there to be a basic school of thought or method ALREADY in place, if he started from scratch its very unlikely that he would have managed to create such an absurdly advanced jutsu without knowing how to make a god damn sealing scroll LOL.
Ergo while the Sage was brilliant he drew upon the resources available to him IE his clan had the knowledge he needed to do what he did within his life time. If he had started from nothing he would have ended with close to nothing, and he would never have become the sage or the bearer of the Rinnegan. Everyone seems to assume that in that era of strife everyone was a dumb ass lol.
From what I can find out about the Sage he had time in his life, ALOT OF TIME, to go around preaching his truth of chakra, IE he didn't stick around most of his life thinking or working in a lab trying to find out what it was. IE he rapidly figured out what it was within his first 20 years of life more or less, sealed the Juubi during or just after that time, and then went off on his world tour lol. Then Split the juubi before his death and created the moon....That's quite the resume, but to make it remotely possible there MUST be a foundation of information/understanding of chakra to work with.
Its obvious that the Rinnegan is a purified from of the Juubi's power. It will only appear once the juubi's power is purified and is controlled by the host not by the prisoner. Not to mention that it is very likely that the juubi must be in its final form for it to truly manifest.
i answered your post before, apparently my response was deleted.
tl;dr
I like this theory, because of the time and effort put in, and the willingness to share with the community, however, the thinking is flawed. The writing style is defined by unsubstantiated claims passed off as courtroom evidence. If this is just an opinion piece it should be written like one. This comes off as a religious argument about a theological text in which unqualified opinions about mistranslations, assumptions about author intent, and blatant logical fallacies are used to smear another line of thought. If that was not the OP's intent, well he/she sure went out of their way to give that impression :/
Nothing of the kind was intended. Logical fallacies? Point them out to me, please.
That said, you got some splainin' to do :/
You're logic is very flawed. I realize this is just a manga forum, where opinions are like butt-holes, but seriously, you're using words like:
I underlined "conclusively proves." And also...
NarutoKage2 is certainly throwing around some very formal and critical terms, I feel it begs for a response in kind. I'll try to be gentle, but he/she may need some tissues by the time I'm finished, j/k.
Good luck with that. It might just turn around on you instead, though(warning jk).
The question that we're trying to answer is, "what is the nature of Rikudou Sennin's lineage?" The answer right now is a disjunct. In other words a A or B or C or D type of answer. I feel NarutoKage2 committed the logical fallacy of affirming the disjunct. As in, A is true, therefore B, C, D are false, which is uh...false :/
That is not the main subject of this thread. It was merely a supporting point, one amongst many others. Nevertheless, there are certain mutually exclusive truths that cannot be ignored, whether or not you consider it as 'false'.
It is considered good practice to read a thread before attempting to refute it. Just saying.
He's/she's also guilty of circular logic. Starting with a premise, I. E. "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki", and then proving the validity of the premise with, "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki."
If that is all you came away with after reading the entire thread, than i cannot help you i'm afraid. The evidence is from the manga, the proof is from not one but several sources.
NarutoKage2 is also guilty of formal fallacies. This is most evident in his/her assertion that, before the shinobi system was in place their could be know shinobi clans. This is a formal fallacy. I. E. bad thinking. It's like saying (classic example), when it rains, the street gets wet. The street is wet, therefore it must have rained. A clan by definition is defined by familial ties. It's a group of people that share kinship. If my friend's last name is Mandrajiev, which means "cheese maker" in Bulgarian, it does not mean that he makes cheese. The opposite is also true. If his last name was Johnson, it does not mean he's isn't a "cheese maker". Does Hyuga mean "white eyed ninja dudes"? Do we know the author's definition of shinobi clan? If we look at the english interpretation of the japanese text it seems to mean simply a family of shinobi, but that doesn't have anything to do with a name. In other words, a family of car salesman by the name of Uchiha, can become a family of sword wielding magic eye psychos, as long as their isn't any defined rules to the contrary. We don't know if there are any rules like that in Nverse, so we can't say either way.
I'll tell you what. Instead of trying to point out alleged flaws in my way of thinking/reasoning, just stick to highlighting the points in the Op you are trying to debunk.
I say this because you commit a logical fallacy yourself, by attempting to define what rules are involved in the make up of a clan in the fictional NV. Your counter that there are no defined rules to the contrary fails when presented with what evidence has been shown to be consistent with a 'shinobi clan' in the NV. Let me give you an example. The Elder and Younger sons were the direct descendants of the SO6P, yet every descendant of the latter inherited only the body powers and life force of the progenitor of their clan, while every descendant of the former only ever inherited occular doujutsu. So if a 'clan' starts from one person, every descendant will now have traits of that said individual, regardless of what took place before. That is NV's defined logic. Or have you ever heard of a senju born with the sharingan?
A simple extension of this clearly defined logic proves that if the SO6P were the first shinobi, then every successor that came after him who would call himself a 'ninja' inherited his system of teachings, ninshu and every characteristic, such as a bloodline limit would have to start due to the exertions or learning's from a single individual, and then every successor would be able to inherit this new ability. So there would have to be a first akimichi, a first Naara, a first Inuzuka, and so on. Because there was a first Senju and a first Uchiha.
What this all boils down to is that, by NV's logic, a shinobi clan would require a single person as a founder with unique traits that would set the precedent for all subsequent members to follow from his clan. So no, without a system of shinobi in place(teachings of ninjutsu/ninshu) there cannot be a shinobi clan such as the Uzumaki.
One of the most glaring weaknesses in NarutoKage2's argument ( or I guess ill formed opinion?), is the lack of accounting for Senju DNA being needed for an Uchiha to evolve the rinnegan. Please see image provided:
Has absolutely nothing to do with the Op, but w.e.
In the above page, panel 2, Madara recounts some of the information written on the Uchiha tablet. That being, "Looking for stability, one god was divided into yin and yang." This implies Rikudou Sennin, divided the Juubi's chakra into yin and yang and passed it to his sons with the creation of all things, yin/yang jutsu (credit to SirDirp). This is the cornerstone to the Uzumaki heritage theory, because it accounts for why the Uzumaki do not manifest possess the rinnegan dojutsu. And why it was passed to the to the Uchiha, descendants of the elder son. By not explaining why senju and uchiha dna are needed to create the rinnegan, and why the sons of Rikudou represent yin and yang of a god, you failed to prove that Rikudou Sennin had the rinnegan before becoming the Juubi's jinchuuriki.
Another fail on your part. Where was it stated that the Rikudo divided the juubi's chakra and passed it onto his sons? Can you show me the manga page for that? No? Then don't push your speculations on me, ok?
What the uchiha tablet may have referred to was the SO6P dividing his own power(no one knows how this was obtained) into yin and yang, and passing this on to his two sons. What you pointed as an alleged weakness in my post is actually an irrelevant point. The rinnegan, the manga has stated was the doujutsu of the Sage, when the two bloodlines of the Elder and Younger son to whom he divided his power and passed on was reunited, what was created was the essence of the Rikudo himself, thus creating the rinnegan. Not too hard to understand, is it? Good.
Now answer this. If the yin and yang powers that the Sage gave to his two sons was derived from the juubi, why did the Uchiha develop the curse of hatred, yet the senjus remained free from it? If the source is the 10 tails for both, this does'nt make any sense. Derpobito in his very flawed theory even stated that the uchiha doujutsu being derived from the Juubi was the reason for their hate, but what of the senjus?
Another question: Fyi, a 'sealing' jutsu is classified as a ninjutsu. In the manga it was categorically stated that the Sage invented ninjutsu, so how did a clan that practiced sealing ninjutsu techs exist prior to the founder of ninjutsu?
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Above Obito classifies a sealing jutsu as 'ninjutsu' and:
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'The sage's teachings led to ninjutsu'.
Also, another example of bad logic is the assumption that chakra cannot be used unless it is understood and a framework is in place. This is a formal fallacy. It's like saying, in the past, folk medicine could not cure an illness, because modern medicine had yet to be invented. That's simply not the case. There very well may have been a folk-ninjutsu or some other system that, although did not explain the truth behind chakra, could utilize chakra. You can't prove otherwise. Kishimoto has yet to reveal that conclusion either way.
False. Kishi already stated that the Sage was the one who first found out the use of chakra, and even if there were isolated incidents of some individuals being able to accidentally use chakra, to suggest that a clan such as the Uzumaki, who were a ninja clan who employed complex ninjutsu techs such as sealing, which require precise control of chakra, existed prior to the sage, is ludicrous. That was the point i was trying to make in the Op.
@NarutoKage2 You are incorrect because the Jūbi sealed in Obito was incomplete, even Obito's horns are asymmetrical indicating an incomplete transformation and a large portion of Kurama and Hachibi's Chakra is missing, so your argument against the Rinnegan coming from the Jūbi is insubstantial.
That is not the main subject of this thread. It was merely a supporting point, one amongst many others. Nevertheless, there are certain mutually exclusive truths that cannot be ignored, whether or not you consider it as 'false'.
It is considered good practice to read a thread before attempting to refute it. Just saying.
You titled your thread "Why The Sage Could Not Possibly Have Belonged To Any Ninja Clan." Saying now that it was only a minor point is weak. That's a bait and switch tactic.
If that is all you came away with after reading the entire thread, than i cannot help you i'm afraid. The evidence is from the manga, the proof is from not one but several sources.
Ultimately, your evidence, or proof as you call it, is non-existent. In other words invalid. It's invalid because it lacks sound logic. I'm attacking your logic, because it's ill formed. What we're left with as readers is essentially a rant, with sideways attacks thrown in for good measure. You often attack the author of the theory instead of the theory itself that you presumably are trying to debunk. Again and again you say personally slanderous things, most of which have to do with how illogical you think that author is. Which is why, I'm throwing it back on to you. If you're going to attack someones logic at least show you're capable of sound arguments yourself. If you want to be taken seriously, that is.
I'll tell you what. Instead of trying to point out alleged flaws in my way of thinking/reasoning, just stick to highlighting the points in the Op you are trying to debunk.
I say this because you commit a logical fallacy yourself, by attempting to define what rules are involved in the make up of a clan in the fictional NV. Your counter that there are no defined rules to the contrary fails when presented with what evidence has been shown to be consistent with a 'shinobi clan' in the NV. Let me give you an example. The Elder and Younger sons were the direct descendants of the SO6P, yet every descendant of the latter inherited only the body powers and life force of the progenitor of their clan, while every descendant of the former only ever inherited ocular doujutsu. So if a 'clan' starts from one person, every descendant will now have traits of that said individual, regardless of what took place before. That is NV's defined logic. Or have you ever heard of a senju born with the sharingan?
A simple extension of this clearly defined logic proves that if the SO6P were the first shinobi, then every successor that came after him who would call himself a 'ninja' inherited his system of teachings, ninshu and every characteristic, such as a bloodline limit would have to start due to the exertions or learning's from a single individual, and then every successor would be able to inherit this new ability. So there would have to be a first akimichi, a first Naara, a first Inuzuka, and so on. Because there was a first Senju and a first Uchiha.
What this all boils down to is that, by NV's logic, a shinobi clan would require a single person as a founder with unique traits that would set the precedent for all subsequent members to follow from his clan. So no, without a system of shinobi in place(teachings of ninjutsu/ninshu) there cannot be a shinobi clan such as the Uzumaki.
I did not attempt to define any rules of Nverse. That's what you've been doing, not me. The definition of a clan is implicit. Your defense has deteriorated to the point that we're arguing over semantics now.
The sage was not the first of a new species of human (homo-shinobi). He did not invent chakra. Nor did he invent the concept of a clan. He was a human who defined the framework for ninjutsu and taught that framework. If your claim that all bloodline limits and ninjas stemmed from him and him alone were true, and there's no evidence that it is true, then who did he teach ninjutsu to? Only his sons? The manga states that he taught ninjutsu far and wide and it spread as a kind of religion that became the shinobi system over time. Clearly, all humans have chakra networks in Nverse and have the potential to become shinobi. Some are more talented than others. And some have genetic superiority to that end, but it's not something that SO6P is responsible for.
Weather or not Uzumaki or Nara or Sarutobi clans existed prior to the advent of the sage is unknown, so there is no evidence one way or the other. What we do know is that he discovered how chakra worked via the rinnegan, taught ninjutsu, and was the progenitor of the Senju and Uchiha clans. We also know that by combining dna from a Senju with that of an Uchiha can result in the manifestation of the rinnegan dojutsu. As I pointed out previously, the uchiha tablet states that one god was divided into two. This heavily implies that the godlike power of the sage, the juubi was split and invested in the two sons. It seems an intentional act by the sage himself, and not the result of random genetic inheritance. This clear divide of the sages power between the Senju and Uchiha clans has been maintained to the present day in Nverse. If the sage was the progenitor of all shinobi clans, then why has that even split of power been maintained at present? Wouldn't we expect that the sons would have inherited the rinnegan to begin with? That's why, without addressing these points, I accused you of circular logic. Your argument is reduced to "the sage didn't come from any clan, because the sage didn't come from any clan." Supply the evidence that he founded all ninja clans.
If the sage did come from a shinobi clan it would probably be Uzumaki. The Uzumaki are the only other clan associated with the rinnegan. They've been shown to be compatible with it. They also have the prerequisite for becoming jinchuuriki: strong bodies and huge chakra reserves, as well as sealing techniques. It's natural to presume, if the sage came from a clan it would be Uzumaki.
Another fail on your part. Where was it stated that the Rikudo divided the juubi's chakra and passed it onto his sons? Can you show me the manga page for that? No? Then don't push your speculations on me, ok?
Another fail on your part. Where was it stated that the Rikudo divided the juubi's chakra and passed it onto his sons? Can you show me the manga page for that? No? Then don't push your speculations on me, ok?
What the uchiha tablet may have referred to was the SO6P dividing his own power(no one knows how this was obtained) into yin and yang, and passing this on to his two sons. What you pointed as an alleged weakness in my post is actually an irrelevant point. The rinnegan, the manga has stated was the doujutsu of the Sage, when the two bloodlines of the Elder and Younger son to whom he divided his power and passed on was reunited, what was created was the essence of the Rikudo himself, thus creating the rinnegan. Not too hard to understand, is it? Good.
Ah, ok I got it. You wanted me to show evidence, which I did. Then you criticize me for showing the evidence. Then go on to say it has nothing to do with your theory and levy various personal attacks towards me.
Nagato had the rinnegan, and he was no Juubito. Clearly, the godlike power of the sage came from the Juubi. That's why I'm pointing it out. The Juubi has the sharinnegan and mokuton. Who has that? The Senju and Uchiha. Why does this matter? Why do I keep harping on it? Simple, the rinnegan, according to Sir Dirp's theory, is not a bloodline ability, but a manifestation of the Juubi's influence on the host. This accounts for why, if the sage was an Uzumaki, the Uzumaki do not posses the rinnegan dojutsu, but are compatible with it. This circumstantial evidence is what allows for the possibility that the sage could be an Uzumaki. It doesn't prove it, but it's what allows the theory to exist in the first place. By not addressing this and only trying to prove a much more implausible theory, you've failed to address the theory at all.
Another question: Fyi, a 'sealing' jutsu is classified as a ninjutsu. In the manga it was categorically stated that the Sage invented ninjutsu, so how did a clan that practiced sealing ninjutsu techs exist prior to the founder of ninjutsu?
I've answered this already, and so has Sir Dirp, and more than adequately at that. It doesn't have to be ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is one way to utilize chakra. It's a particular system. The samurai don't use ninjutsu but still can use chakra, for example. Maybe people before the sage could used something like ninjutsu but called it magic. Who knows? We don't know either way. At least I'm being upfront about what I can and cannot know unlike yourself.
In conclusion, your thread is weak, your thoughts are weak, and your personal attacks are tiring and weak. You're being obstinate and obtuse on purpose. You've turned what could have been a positive constructive thread into a hate piece. I spent a good amount of my time responding to your ideas, giving you a formal critique, without demeaning you in the process or making it personal. You could have done the same, but chose not to. You've wasted my time by turning this into a slug match. I take back what I said earlier. You clearly were never trying to contribute to the community at large. I'm disappointed in you.
@Mikoto The OP's intentions were malicious to begin with, he is hiding in the veneer of objectivity even though it is clear as day that he is bias, his vitriolic replies clearly shows that (Res Ipsa Loquitur) may I remind him that he is one of those members who was absolutely cocksure of himself back then that the Rinnegan need not Senju DNA to awaken it:
There seems to be some confusion regarding this so let me set the record straight: Awakening the rinnegan after acquiring EMS does NOT require senju DNA.
@Mikoto The OP's intentions were malicious to begin with, he is hiding in the veneer of objectivity even though it is clear as day that he is bias, his vitriolic replies clearly shows that (Res Ipsa Loquitur) may I remind him that he is one of those members who was absolutely cocksure of himself back then that the Rinnegan need not Senju DNA to awaken it:
Ad hominem once again.
Malicious?Youre the one parading false proofs as divine truth.
And if we're going to play that game, i wonder when minato will react to seeing hinata(seemed rather sure of yourself didnt you).
Dont worry, there are still many people who can think for themselves on this base, even though you cant stand it so youve neg repped me twice. Even posting vmss? Just fighting fire with fire.
@mikoto: im not going to bother answering your post, as its degenerated into a nonsensical rant claiming to be a form of constructive criticism. What the matter, you mad i rejected your friend request Lol?
Youre either one of derps many alts, or just incredibly stubborn and dogmatic.
Your ignorance of the subject is astounding. You originally stated ' what we're discussing is the sages lineage' and then when i said it was just a side point, you attack the title of the thread? How is the sage not belonging to a shinobi clan( his ancestry, origins) the same as his lineage?
I couldnt care less about what some random tool on the internet thinks of me, so its quite safe to dismiss your arguments as an emotional kickback from your obvious bias and fanboying of derps threads.
@mikoto: im not going to bother answering your post, as its degenerated into a nonsensical rant claiming to be a form of constructive criticism. What the matter, you mad i rejected your friend request Lol?
Youre either one of derps many alts, or just incredibly stubborn and dogmatic.
Your ignorance of the subject is astounding. You originally stated ' what we're discussing is the sages lineage' and then when i said it was just a side point, you attack the title of the thread? How is the sage not belonging to a shinobi clan( his ancestry, origins) the same as his lineage?
I couldnt care less about what some random tool on the internet thinks of me, so its quite safe to dismiss your arguments as an emotional kickback from your obvious bias and fanboying of derps threads.
You're not bothering to answer my post because you lack the intellect to understand it. Clearly you're the one who's being emotional and personal here. You can't discuss anything without lowering yourself to name calling and general internet bullying. All you have are declarative statements, internet rage, and other openly childish antics. Try defending yourself by using your brain instead of your emotional problems. It's amazing what a cliche' you are.
So, thanks for not friending me, I didn't know what type of person you were at the time. Call me a fanboy if you want to. I'm not defending Sir Dirp. He can defend himself just fine. Wow you're really paranoid to think I might actually be him. You really can't see how foolish you're behaving right now.
I was trying to be helpful initially, but your lack of civility makes that fruitless.
And please, I'm the one ranting? You can barely string a sentence together.
You're not bothering to answer my post because you lack the intellect to understand it. Clearly you're the one who's being emotional and personal here. You can't discuss anything without lowering yourself to name calling and general internet bullying. All you have are declarative statements, internet rage, and other openly childish antics. Try defending yourself by using your brain instead of your emotional problems. It's amazing what a cliche' you are.
So, thanks for not friending me, I didn't know what type of person you were at the time. Call me a fanboy if you want to. I'm not defending Sir Dirp. He can defend himself just fine. Wow you're really paranoid to think I might actually be him. You really can't see how foolish you're behaving right now.
I was trying to be helpful initially, but your lack of civility makes that fruitless.
And please, I'm the one ranting? You can barely string a sentence together.
*yawn*. Nice to know that you avoided answering the difference between lineage and ancestry. Its obvious that you're not interested in any form of civil discourse, a barrage of irrelevant and baseless attacks on your part has made that abundantly clear.
Barely string a sentence together? Is that why you keep on responding?
Your silly post contends that i relied largely on attacking the author as opposed to debunking his theory. Hard as it is to believe that anyone in the possession of their senses could possibly arrive at such a conclusion, you make it worse by stating contradictory as well blatantly false information that is in direct conflict with the manga. The manga gave absolutely no information on whether or not any form of clan ever existed prior to the sage. Using real life logic to assume this, and to parade it around as a fact in a world where the moon was stated to have been formed via a method in direct conflict with our understanding of physics, is a blatant display of ignorance and arrogance on your part.
Get rid of the attitude, kid and make a relevant post keeping in view the nature of the manga and logic that is applicable to this discussion first.
*yawn*. Nice to know that you avoided answering the difference between lineage and ancestry. Its obvious that you're not interested in any form of civil discourse, a barrage of irrelevant and baseless attacks on your part has made that abundantly clear.
Barely string a sentence together? Is that why you keep on responding?
Your silly post contends that i relied largely on attacking the author as opposed to debunking his theory. Hard as it is to believe that anyone in the possession of their senses could possibly arrive at such a conclusion, you make it worse by stating contradictory as well blatantly false information that is in direct conflict with the manga. The manga gave absolutely no information on whether or not any form of clan ever existed prior to the sage. Using real life logic to assume this, and to parade it around as a fact in a world where the moon was stated to have been formed via a method in direct conflict with our understanding of physics, is a blatant display of ignorance and arrogance on your part.
Get rid of the attitude, kid and make a relevant post keeping in view the nature of the manga and logic that is applicable to this discussion first.
I've never seen a more pathetic string of rebuttals in my life. If you want to prove somebody wrong use logic not childish hate filled insults. A thinker does not need insults to argue his hypothesis or theory. If you want people to take you seriously then you need to calm down and argue your point in a sensible manner. While at first I was willing to listen to some of your points which I have taken on board you've managed to lose any respect I had for you as OP.
After posting new observations about the latest manga (Which can be interpreted in multiple ways not just a single way), You didn't refute Mikoto's points you merely dismissed them you didn't even attempt to counter each point he made in a logical manner you just insulted him and put him down. That is not something a logical thinker does, every scientist knows that everyone's opinion has merit and deserves to be pursued to its eventual end point whether or not that end point has any merit or not is immaterial.
"Get rid of the attitude, kid and make a relevant post keeping in view the nature of the manga and logic that is applicable to this discussion first." ~Narutokage2
First off how do you know who's older or not? Simply because he has joined later then you? A fallacy. You should take your own advice here and keep on topic instead of putting down replies and opinions in your thread that you are either unprepared to deal with or don't conform to your designs.
In the end BOTH your own "Theory" (though I hesitate to call it a theory and more of a refutation of Sir Derps threads) and Sir Derps are in fact NOT "Theories". They are hypothesis' IE they are possibilities with logical assumptions and until the manga proves it one way or another they will remain so.
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One thing that occurred to me just now.
The sage spread a method of thinking that gave birth to modern ninjutsu it seems it was more of a philosophy than a method of chakra use.
"He travelled across the land, spreading his ideal and religion, the Shinobi Sect (忍宗, Ninshū)"
This is a distinct choice of words it could mean that "Ninjutsu" as we know it was different back then. That means that modern Ninjutsu is a product of this philosophy which gave rise to Ninja themselves.
i want to ask you guys, the theorist... in real life Japanese culture(or others if you may add) can marry their own kinsman or lineage if you may presume like how senju hashirama married uzumaki mito..? i do know they married for 'strategic' purposes but is it culturally/morally bounded? .... so the premise is, senju and uzumaki are distant reletives.. many put down certain definition regards to this...so with those definitions,can it correlate with these cultures or not... it may provide certain key points for your theories....
*yawn*. Nice to know that you avoided answering the difference between lineage and ancestry. Its obvious that you're not interested in any form of civil discourse, a barrage of irrelevant and baseless attacks on your part has made that abundantly clear.
Barely string a sentence together? Is that why you keep on responding?
Your silly post contends that i relied largely on attacking the author as opposed to debunking his theory. Hard as it is to believe that anyone in the possession of their senses could possibly arrive at such a conclusion, you make it worse by stating contradictory as well blatantly false information that is in direct conflict with the manga. The manga gave absolutely no information on whether or not any form of clan ever existed prior to the sage. Using real life logic to assume this, and to parade it around as a fact in a world where the moon was stated to have been formed via a method in direct conflict with our understanding of physics, is a blatant display of ignorance and arrogance on your part.
Get rid of the attitude, kid and make a relevant post keeping in view the nature of the manga and logic that is applicable to this discussion first.
I can't believe I have to spell this out for you. I'll be patient and consider that maybe english isn't your first language. Lineage is a synonym for ancestry. They mean the same thing, there isn't a difference.
The context in which I used the word lineage denotes the anthropological use of lineage or kinship. That is, the genealogy of a people or person.
The sage spread a method of thinking that gave birth to modern ninjutsu it seems it was more of a philosophy than a method of chakra use.
"He travelled across the land, spreading his ideal and religion, the Shinobi Sect (忍宗, Ninshū)"
This is a distinct choice of words it could mean that "Ninjutsu" as we know it was different back then. That means that modern Ninjutsu is a product of this philosophy which gave rise to Ninja themselves.
The manga has stated that his 'teachings gave birth to ninjutsu itself'. Thus there was no organized method of ninja teachings back then. Since he was also stated to be the first to discover the true use of chakra, the likelihood of any pre existing ninjutsu ever having been used is greatly diminished. Nonetheless, even if certain techniques were being employed which utilized chakra in some form, it was definitely disorganized and unlike what we know today.
In fact, if you read the manga, you will find that the Sage was a priest, and his religion if you will, were the teachings of ninshu that later evolved into ninjutsu(probably). A shinobi per se was an unknown factor at that point, someone who did not exist. Whether or not the use of chakra and the abilities of ninjutsu existed in some form is an unknown. However, seeing as how no one else from the past was ever known to have achieved what the Rikudo did, and the credit that has been ascribed to him, its quite safe to say that the formal use of chakra, and the complex handseals involved in ninjutsu techniques, especially those such as sealing, most definitely did not exist at that time. Otherwise it would render the credit given to the Sage as false.
i want to ask you guys, the theorist... in real life Japanese culture(or others if you may add) can marry their own kinsman or lineage if you may presume like how senju hashirama married uzumaki mito..? i do know they married for 'strategic' purposes but is it culturally/morally bounded? .... so the premise is, senju and uzumaki are distant reletives.. many put down certain definition regards to this...so with those definitions,can it correlate with these cultures or not... it may provide certain key points for your theories....
Actually in many Eastern cultures its quite commonplace for 2nd or 3rd generation cousins to marry. If 5 generations ago two people had a common grandparent, this would classify them as 'distant' relatives.
I can't believe I have to spell this out for you. I'll be patient and consider that maybe english isn't your first language. Lineage is a synonym for ancestry. They mean the same thing, there isn't a difference.
The context in which I used the word lineage denotes the anthropological use of lineage or kinship. That is, the genealogy of a people or person.
Quoting a website that can be edited by anyone? You expect me to take that seriously?
Lets use a dictionary instead, shall we?
You must be registered for see links
a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.
I don't need to know anthropology to debate this topic, and the definition to be used is the english language version of any given word.
Also:
1. direct descent from an ancestor, esp a line of descendants from one ancestor.
So in your example, who was the one ancestor the Sage was supposed to have descended from? The implied meaning that is given to the reader would be 'descendants' as opposed to 'ancestors'. Your usage of the word heavily implied this meaning, when you stated:
The question that we're trying to answer is, "what is the nature of Rikudou Sennin's lineage?" The answer right now is a disjunct. In other words a A or B or C or D type of answer. I feel NarutoKage2 committed the logical fallacy of affirming the disjunct. As in, A is true, therefore B, C, D are false, which is uh...false :/
The Uzumakis relation to the senjus, and accounting for the similarity in the mechanisms used in the fuuinjutsu of the Rikudo and the Uzumaki seal on naruto was explained as a possible derivative of a teaching initially passed on to the senju(the sage's lineage). When i stated in the Op that since the senju possessed a fuuinjutsu of similar capability, and you posted that i assumed you were targeting this example. I see that this was not the case. Your failure to clarify what you meant led to this ambiguity, and it this very ambiguity that veers this thread off topic.
Nothing is known about his origins, to speculate on that would be pointless, there is not enough information given to ascertain it.
We can however safely say that he did/did NOT belong to x y or z groups, since those variables, unlike the Sage's ancestry, has been defined.
I don't know anything about anthropology. I don't know who the fck you are, nor do i care. I don't know why you chose to respond to this thread, and i don't know why you want to use real world science on a fcking anime forum about a cartoon.I did'nt pretend to sound smart while making this thread, only thorough. But i do know that if you will post in this thread, than you will do what people on anime forums do: talk about anime. Not anthropology. Not a scientific field you conveniently cherry pick. And certainly not about some BS pretense of superior logic that no one is gonna be able to decide either way. Get with the game, or gtfo this thread.
The manga has stated that his 'teachings gave birth to ninjutsu itself'. Thus there was no organized method of ninja teachings back then. Since he was also stated to be the first to discover the true use of chakra, the likelihood of any pre existing ninjutsu ever having been used is greatly diminished. Nonetheless, even if certain techniques were being employed which utilized chakra in some form, it was definitely disorganized and unlike what we know today.
In fact, if you read the manga, you will find that the Sage was a priest, and his religion if you will, were the teachings of ninshu that later evolved into ninjutsu(probably). A shinobi per se was an unknown factor at that point, someone who did not exist. Whether or not the use of chakra and the abilities of ninjutsu existed in some form is an unknown. However, seeing as how no one else from the past was ever known to have achieved what the Rikudo did, and the credit that has been ascribed to him, its quite safe to say that the formal use of chakra, and the complex handseals involved in ninjutsu techniques, especially those such as sealing, most definitely did not exist at that time. Otherwise it would render the credit given to the Sage as false.
Actually in many Eastern cultures its quite commonplace for 2nd or 3rd generation cousins to marry. If 5 generations ago two people had a common grandparent, this would classify them as 'distant' relatives.
Quoting a website that can be edited by anyone? You expect me to take that seriously?
Lets use a dictionary instead, shall we?
You must be registered for see links
a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.
I don't need to know anthropology to debate this topic, and the definition to be used is the english language version of any given word.
Also:
1. direct descent from an ancestor, esp a line of descendants from one ancestor.
So in your example, who was the one ancestor the Sage was supposed to have descended from? The implied meaning that is given to the reader would be 'descendants' as opposed to 'ancestors'. Your usage of the word heavily implied this meaning, when you stated:
The Uzumakis relation to the senjus, and accounting for the similarity in the mechanisms used in the fuuinjutsu of the Rikudo and the Uzumaki seal on naruto was explained as a possible derivative of a teaching initially passed on to the senju(the sage's lineage). When i stated in the Op that since the senju possessed a fuuinjutsu of similar capability, and you posted that i assumed you were targeting this example. I see that this was not the case. Your failure to clarify what you meant led to this ambiguity, and it this very ambiguity that veers this thread off topic.
Nothing is known about his origins, to speculate on that would be pointless, there is not enough information given to ascertain it.
We can however safely say that he did/did NOT belong to x y or z groups, since those variables, unlike the Sage's ancestry, has been defined.
I don't know anything about anthropology. I don't know who the fck you are, nor do i care. I don't know why you chose to respond to this thread, and i don't know why you want to use real world science on a fcking anime forum about a cartoon.I did'nt pretend to sound smart while making this thread, only thorough. But i do know that if you will post in this thread, than you will do what people on anime forums do: talk about anime. Not anthropology. Not a scientific field you conveniently cherry pick. And certainly not about some BS pretense of superior logic that no one is gonna be able to decide either way. Get with the game, or gtfo this thread.[/QUOTE]
Good response, And I agree its seems quite weighted that Zetsu's statement suggests that the Uzumaki bloodline is the same as the Senju. Evidence to suggest this is as you say the Mokuton technique used by Hashirama to restrain the juubi is very similar to the inner workings of the Uzumaki inspired seal on Naruto. Kushina Uzumaki's Chakra chains function in a very similar manner to Hashirama's Mokuton however it is different in its barrier jutsu applications; Hashirama's Bloodline has never been shown to do something similar. Kushina's chains also resemble the Evil chains of the Outer Path of the Rinnegan.
This brings up a question in my mind. If the Uzumaki have absolutely zero influence upon their bodies from the Juubi. IE If the Uzumaki bloodline is pure as Sir Derp Hypothesis suggests by default, if the Uzumaki are not a descendant of the sage in any way and he only came from the clan. IE They cannot have any shred of influence upon them in the form of the Yang and Yin powers of the Juubi. In this case HOW is it that Kushina Uzumaki can manifest the Evil chains of the outer path of the Rinnegan with her Unique chakra? A form of Yin yang release? If she is not a direct descendant of the Sage and his Juubi influenced off spring then how can she manifest what should be abilities that are directly indicative of Juubi influence? This is a hole in the theory of the Uzumaki being unrelated to the descendants of the sage, in order for Kushina to manifest those particular abilities she had to have some manner of influence upon her from the juubi.
However there is another point the Senju clan were said to be extremely talented in many areas, ninjutsu genjutsu taijutsu etc etc. The Uzumaki clan was not, why? If they share the same lineage or ancestor or kinship then why are their "apparent" skills so different, why weren't the Uzumaki well known for the other realms of ninja techniques. The Senju bloodline seems to grant raw talent in most areas of ninja arts....that is a question mark against that. Why didn't the Uzumaki ever manifest a Mokuton user?
