Why The Sage Could Not Possibly Have Belonged To Any Ninja Clan
- Thread starter NarutoKage2
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Manicherryblossom33
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Take it easy guys, you both have good theories in my opinion. I would actually enjoy it if Sage is Uzumaki, but its fine if he's not, because either way the bijuu are on naruto's side.
NarutoKage2
Active member
Learn to read. I already answered the other guy when i countered this point. Why was a relation to the senju needed for someone who, according to your very flawed theory, came from the sages clan anyway, in order to control the gedo mazo. Stop blowing things out of proportion. I notice you lack basic comprehension skills, and just spam the same points over and over again.
Very true. Its not even an issue that has been put forward in the manga yet lol.
Exactly, and to suggest such ordinary humans knew how to use uzumaki fuuinjutsu, which is a form of ninjutsu is laughable. Especially when the manga clearly states that the Sage invented ninjutsu.
UnrealSoul
Active member
People are quite the fools to take a theory into fact concerning the sage being an uzumaki. I mean come on people where has it been proven in the manga the sage had red hair? Its much more of a fanboy fantasy for the sage to have red hair so Naruto can become the reincarnation of him because he is his family ancestor. I say people should be quiet about it and not bash others theorys when theirs is not even close to being proven.
What you people take out of context is this.
You can not split your own DNA and chose what goes into your children. That is completely stupid, how on earth will uzumaki blood not be in senju's or uchihas? Why did any generation of them not have red hair? Oh that's right because their ancestor did not have red hair therefore not an uzumaki.
You people are posting this idiotic formula in which denies genetics and logic.
What you people take out of context is this.
You can not split your own DNA and chose what goes into your children. That is completely stupid, how on earth will uzumaki blood not be in senju's or uchihas? Why did any generation of them not have red hair? Oh that's right because their ancestor did not have red hair therefore not an uzumaki.
You people are posting this idiotic formula in which denies genetics and logic.
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As for that there is actually a very logical response. Based on Sir Derp's Obito theory, if you become the 10 tails jinchuuriki then you can unlock the rinnegan. The fact that an uzumaki managed to do it is based on the fact that uzumaki were very well-known for their sealing techniques and there wasn't anyone aside from them who would be able to pull it off exactly because they didn't possess the same knowledge. Therefore to answer your question, it wasn't that you need to be an uzumaki to unlock the rinnegan but rather it just happened to be the sage. For that reason, the only reason for Zatsu to point out that Nagato was blood related to the senju was only needed to explain how Nagato was compatible with the rinnegan in the first place. Also, exactly because you need to either be related by both senju and uchiha or being the 10 tails jinchuuriki, it explains your misconception. If Nagato was just an uzumaki, it wouldn't matter because he wouldn't the sharingan which you need to evolve into the rinnegan.
To put it simply, here are the equations to get the rinnegan:
uzumaki+juubi=rinnegan (I say uzumaki because ony they have such strong sealing techniques and increadible life force)
senju+uchiha=rinnegan
uzumaki+uchiha=rinnegan.
NarutoKage2
Active member
Whats interesting is that the latest chapters have shown us a jinchuriki of the juubi, and he still has a sharingan, as opposed to a rinnegan. In fact there has been no change in his eyes from becoming the host. Lol.
SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO
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Incorrect since the Juubi that was sealed inside Obito was incomplete, not to mention that the Juubi is in control of its Jinchuuriki and not the other way around therefore your premise is invalid.
Oh and btw, take a look at this:
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Who were the descendants of the Younger Son? that's right the Senjus, did it say the Senjus and Uzumakis? No.
The Uzumakis did not descend from the Younger Son, quite the contrary the apical ancestor of both Elder and Younger Sons was an Uzumaki: Rikudou Sennin
/Thread
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Transcendence
Active member
This thread debunks nothing.
A little history for you; in Japan, families were also referred to as CLANS. Rikudou was born into an era of war, and in that time there were clans (Ancient times). Logical deduction concludes that he was born into a clan and stemmed from a clan. Evidence suggests it was the Uzumaki.
Also, Obito has been the Jinchuriki for literally seconds and it is the incomplete Juubi. That isn't enough time for any sort of change to manifest and the incomplete state of the Juubi suggests the manifestation of the Rinnegan is in its final form.
A little history for you; in Japan, families were also referred to as CLANS. Rikudou was born into an era of war, and in that time there were clans (Ancient times). Logical deduction concludes that he was born into a clan and stemmed from a clan. Evidence suggests it was the Uzumaki.
Also, Obito has been the Jinchuriki for literally seconds and it is the incomplete Juubi. That isn't enough time for any sort of change to manifest and the incomplete state of the Juubi suggests the manifestation of the Rinnegan is in its final form.
Honord Sage
Active member
The Juubi is in charge right now and its mind is so simple you can classify it as a Moron in the intelligence factor. It acts on instinct and it instinct tell it that the most daggers enemy is Naruto Uzumaki.
valandil988
Active member
Its obvious that the Rinnegan is a purified from of the Juubi's power. It will only appear once the juubi's power is purified and is controlled by the host not by the prisoner. Not to mention that it is very likely that the juubi must be in its final form for it to truly manifest.
Why everyone keeps going on about it being impossible for the Uzumaki to be around at the time of the sage is beyond me. Its likely all the big clans have been around for a great deal of time, certain families around the world can trace their lineage back thousands of years. Royal families or nobles can do this quite easily.
Chakra existed back then before the sage and was likely utilized by practitioners, most likely a part of clans which horded what little knowledge they could glean on the subject of chakra. Chakra wielding Samurai also likely existed, but as can be seen even in Naruto's era they use it in a primitive manner using it in a very limited way.
The Uzumaki likely already had the basics of Fuinjutsu understood or invented in that era. Once the sage was born he pulled all this info together to figure out what the heck was going on with this chakra business. It is impossible for one man no matter how intelligent to single-handedly found an entire school of thought from scratch within his own lifetime. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. Every scientist or thinker has always built on what has come before, there has never been a great enough genius to be able to manage such a super human feat. Its like saying the very first scientist discovered physics in its totality and then gave birth to advanced technology ALL WITHIN HIS OWN LIFETIME.
For the sage to come up with the seal he used on the Juubi he needed for there to be a basic school of thought or method ALREADY in place, if he started from scratch its very unlikely that he would have managed to create such an absurdly advanced jutsu without knowing how to make a god damn sealing scroll LOL.
Ergo while the Sage was brilliant he drew upon the resources available to him IE his clan had the knowledge he needed to do what he did within his life time. If he had started from nothing he would have ended with close to nothing, and he would never have become the sage or the bearer of the Rinnegan. Everyone seems to assume that in that era of strife everyone was a dumb ass lol.
From what I can find out about the Sage he had time in his life, ALOT OF TIME, to go around preaching his truth of chakra, IE he didn't stick around most of his life thinking or working in a lab trying to find out what it was. IE he rapidly figured out what it was within his first 20 years of life more or less, sealed the Juubi during or just after that time, and then went off on his world tour lol. Then Split the juubi before his death and created the moon....That's quite the resume, but to make it remotely possible there MUST be a foundation of information/understanding of chakra to work with.
Why everyone keeps going on about it being impossible for the Uzumaki to be around at the time of the sage is beyond me. Its likely all the big clans have been around for a great deal of time, certain families around the world can trace their lineage back thousands of years. Royal families or nobles can do this quite easily.
Chakra existed back then before the sage and was likely utilized by practitioners, most likely a part of clans which horded what little knowledge they could glean on the subject of chakra. Chakra wielding Samurai also likely existed, but as can be seen even in Naruto's era they use it in a primitive manner using it in a very limited way.
The Uzumaki likely already had the basics of Fuinjutsu understood or invented in that era. Once the sage was born he pulled all this info together to figure out what the heck was going on with this chakra business. It is impossible for one man no matter how intelligent to single-handedly found an entire school of thought from scratch within his own lifetime. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. Every scientist or thinker has always built on what has come before, there has never been a great enough genius to be able to manage such a super human feat. Its like saying the very first scientist discovered physics in its totality and then gave birth to advanced technology ALL WITHIN HIS OWN LIFETIME.
For the sage to come up with the seal he used on the Juubi he needed for there to be a basic school of thought or method ALREADY in place, if he started from scratch its very unlikely that he would have managed to create such an absurdly advanced jutsu without knowing how to make a god damn sealing scroll LOL.
Ergo while the Sage was brilliant he drew upon the resources available to him IE his clan had the knowledge he needed to do what he did within his life time. If he had started from nothing he would have ended with close to nothing, and he would never have become the sage or the bearer of the Rinnegan. Everyone seems to assume that in that era of strife everyone was a dumb ass lol.
From what I can find out about the Sage he had time in his life, ALOT OF TIME, to go around preaching his truth of chakra, IE he didn't stick around most of his life thinking or working in a lab trying to find out what it was. IE he rapidly figured out what it was within his first 20 years of life more or less, sealed the Juubi during or just after that time, and then went off on his world tour lol. Then Split the juubi before his death and created the moon....That's quite the resume, but to make it remotely possible there MUST be a foundation of information/understanding of chakra to work with.
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Transcendence
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SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO
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Thanks for taking the time to make an in depth post to explain your position! Really appreciate it!
tl;dr
I like this theory, because of the time and effort put in, and the willingness to share with the community, however, the thinking is flawed. The writing style is defined by unsubstantiated claims passed off as courtroom evidence. If this is just an opinion piece it should be written like one. This comes off as a religious argument about a theological text in which unqualified opinions about mistranslations, assumptions about author intent, and blatant logical fallacies are used to smear another line of thought. If that was not the OP's intent, well he/she sure went out of their way to give that impression :/
That said, you got some splainin' to do :/
You're logic is very flawed. I realize this is just a manga forum, where opinions are like butt-holes, but seriously, you're using words like:
The question that we're trying to answer is, "what is the nature of Rikudou Sennin's lineage?" The answer right now is a disjunct. In other words a A or B or C or D type of answer. I feel NarutoKage2 committed the logical fallacy of affirming the disjunct. As in, A is true, therefore B, C, D are false, which is uh...false :/
He's/she's also guilty of circular logic. Starting with a premise, I. E. "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki", and then proving the validity of the premise with, "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki."
NarutoKage2 is also guilty of formal fallacies. This is most evident in his/her assertion that, before the shinobi system was in place their could be know shinobi clans. This is a formal fallacy. I. E. bad thinking. It's like saying (classic example), when it rains, the street gets wet. The street is wet, therefore it must have rained. A clan by definition is defined by familial ties. It's a group of people that share kinship. If my friend's last name is Mandrajiev, which means "cheese maker" in Bulgarian, it does not mean that he makes cheese. The opposite is also true. If his last name was Johnson, it does not mean he's isn't a "cheese maker". Does Hyuga mean "white eyed ninja dudes"? Do we know the author's definition of shinobi clan? If we look at the english interpretation of the japanese text it seems to mean simply a family of shinobi, but that doesn't have anything to do with a name. In other words, a family of car salesman by the name of Uchiha, can become a family of sword wielding magic eye psychos, as long as their isn't any defined rules to the contrary. We don't know if there are any rules like that in Nverse, so we can't say either way.
One of the most glaring weaknesses in NarutoKage2's argument ( or I guess ill formed opinion?), is the lack of accounting for Senju DNA being needed for an Uchiha to evolve the rinnegan. Please see image provided:
In the above page, panel 2, Madara recounts some of the information written on the Uchiha tablet. That being, "Looking for stability, one god was divided into yin and yang." This implies Rikudou Sennin, divided the Juubi's chakra into yin and yang and passed it to his sons with the creation of all things, yin/yang jutsu (credit to SirDirp). This is the cornerstone to the Uzumaki heritage theory, because it accounts for why the Uzumaki do not manifest possess the rinnegan dojutsu. And why it was passed to the to the Uchiha, descendants of the elder son. By not explaining why senju and uchiha dna are needed to create the rinnegan, and why the sons of Rikudou represent yin and yang of a god, you failed to prove that Rikudou Sennin had the rinnegan before becoming the Juubi's jinchuuriki.
Also, another example of bad logic is the assumption that chakra cannot be used unless it is understood and a framework is in place. This is a formal fallacy. It's like saying, in the past, folk medicine could not cure an illness, because modern medicine had yet to be invented. That's simply not the case. There very well may have been a folk-ninjutsu or some other system that, although did not explain the truth behind chakra, could utilize chakra. You can't prove otherwise. Kishimoto has yet to reveal that conclusion either way.
In conclusion (although I could definitely go on), if you don't want formal criticism, please don't try to pass off an opinion as solid evidence and or absolute fact. That said, as before, I did enjoy the read, and I appreciate the effort.
tl;dr
I like this theory, because of the time and effort put in, and the willingness to share with the community, however, the thinking is flawed. The writing style is defined by unsubstantiated claims passed off as courtroom evidence. If this is just an opinion piece it should be written like one. This comes off as a religious argument about a theological text in which unqualified opinions about mistranslations, assumptions about author intent, and blatant logical fallacies are used to smear another line of thought. If that was not the OP's intent, well he/she sure went out of their way to give that impression :/
That said, you got some splainin' to do :/
You're logic is very flawed. I realize this is just a manga forum, where opinions are like butt-holes, but seriously, you're using words like:
I underlined "conclusively proves." And also...
NarutoKage2 is certainly throwing around some very formal and critical terms, I feel it begs for a response in kind. I'll try to be gentle, but he/she may need some tissues by the time I'm finished, j/k.
The question that we're trying to answer is, "what is the nature of Rikudou Sennin's lineage?" The answer right now is a disjunct. In other words a A or B or C or D type of answer. I feel NarutoKage2 committed the logical fallacy of affirming the disjunct. As in, A is true, therefore B, C, D are false, which is uh...false :/
He's/she's also guilty of circular logic. Starting with a premise, I. E. "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki", and then proving the validity of the premise with, "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki."
NarutoKage2 is also guilty of formal fallacies. This is most evident in his/her assertion that, before the shinobi system was in place their could be know shinobi clans. This is a formal fallacy. I. E. bad thinking. It's like saying (classic example), when it rains, the street gets wet. The street is wet, therefore it must have rained. A clan by definition is defined by familial ties. It's a group of people that share kinship. If my friend's last name is Mandrajiev, which means "cheese maker" in Bulgarian, it does not mean that he makes cheese. The opposite is also true. If his last name was Johnson, it does not mean he's isn't a "cheese maker". Does Hyuga mean "white eyed ninja dudes"? Do we know the author's definition of shinobi clan? If we look at the english interpretation of the japanese text it seems to mean simply a family of shinobi, but that doesn't have anything to do with a name. In other words, a family of car salesman by the name of Uchiha, can become a family of sword wielding magic eye psychos, as long as their isn't any defined rules to the contrary. We don't know if there are any rules like that in Nverse, so we can't say either way.
One of the most glaring weaknesses in NarutoKage2's argument ( or I guess ill formed opinion?), is the lack of accounting for Senju DNA being needed for an Uchiha to evolve the rinnegan. Please see image provided:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see links
In the above page, panel 2, Madara recounts some of the information written on the Uchiha tablet. That being, "Looking for stability, one god was divided into yin and yang." This implies Rikudou Sennin, divided the Juubi's chakra into yin and yang and passed it to his sons with the creation of all things, yin/yang jutsu (credit to SirDirp). This is the cornerstone to the Uzumaki heritage theory, because it accounts for why the Uzumaki do not manifest possess the rinnegan dojutsu. And why it was passed to the to the Uchiha, descendants of the elder son. By not explaining why senju and uchiha dna are needed to create the rinnegan, and why the sons of Rikudou represent yin and yang of a god, you failed to prove that Rikudou Sennin had the rinnegan before becoming the Juubi's jinchuuriki.
Also, another example of bad logic is the assumption that chakra cannot be used unless it is understood and a framework is in place. This is a formal fallacy. It's like saying, in the past, folk medicine could not cure an illness, because modern medicine had yet to be invented. That's simply not the case. There very well may have been a folk-ninjutsu or some other system that, although did not explain the truth behind chakra, could utilize chakra. You can't prove otherwise. Kishimoto has yet to reveal that conclusion either way.
In conclusion (although I could definitely go on), if you don't want formal criticism, please don't try to pass off an opinion as solid evidence and or absolute fact. That said, as before, I did enjoy the read, and I appreciate the effort.
Transcendence
Active member
If other posts haven't, this post has definitely debunked this thread's premise.Thanks for taking the time to make an in depth post to explain your position! Really appreciate it!
tl;dr
I like this theory, because of the time and effort put in, and the willingness to share with the community, however, the thinking is flawed. The writing style is defined by unsubstantiated claims passed off as courtroom evidence. If this is just an opinion piece it should be written like one. This comes off as a religious argument about a theological text in which unqualified opinions about mistranslations, assumptions about author intent, and blatant logical fallacies are used to smear another line of thought. If that was not the OP's intent, well he/she sure went out of their way to give that impression :/
That said, you got some splainin' to do :/
You're logic is very flawed. I realize this is just a manga forum, where opinions are like butt-holes, but seriously, you're using words like:
I underlined "conclusively proves." And also...
NarutoKage2 is certainly throwing around some very formal and critical terms, I feel it begs for a response in kind. I'll try to be gentle, but he/she may need some tissues by the time I'm finished, j/k.
The question that we're trying to answer is, "what is the nature of Rikudou Sennin's lineage?" The answer right now is a disjunct. In other words a A or B or C or D type of answer. I feel NarutoKage2 committed the logical fallacy of affirming the disjunct. As in, A is true, therefore B, C, D are false, which is uh...false :/
He's/she's also guilty of circular logic. Starting with a premise, I. E. "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki", and then proving the validity of the premise with, "Rikudou Sennin can't be an Uzumaki."
NarutoKage2 is also guilty of formal fallacies. This is most evident in his/her assertion that, before the shinobi system was in place their could be know shinobi clans. This is a formal fallacy. I. E. bad thinking. It's like saying (classic example), when it rains, the street gets wet. The street is wet, therefore it must have rained. A clan by definition is defined by familial ties. It's a group of people that share kinship. If my friend's last name is Mandrajiev, which means "cheese maker" in Bulgarian, it does not mean that he makes cheese. The opposite is also true. If his last name was Johnson, it does not mean he's isn't a "cheese maker". Does Hyuga mean "white eyed ninja dudes"? Do we know the author's definition of shinobi clan? If we look at the english interpretation of the japanese text it seems to mean simply a family of shinobi, but that doesn't have anything to do with a name. In other words, a family of car salesman by the name of Uchiha, can become a family of sword wielding magic eye psychos, as long as their isn't any defined rules to the contrary. We don't know if there are any rules like that in Nverse, so we can't say either way.
One of the most glaring weaknesses in NarutoKage2's argument ( or I guess ill formed opinion?), is the lack of accounting for Senju DNA being needed for an Uchiha to evolve the rinnegan. Please see image provided:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see links
In the above page, panel 2, Madara recounts some of the information written on the Uchiha tablet. That being, "Looking for stability, one god was divided into yin and yang." This implies Rikudou Sennin, divided the Juubi's chakra into yin and yang and passed it to his sons with the creation of all things, yin/yang jutsu (credit to SirDirp). This is the cornerstone to the Uzumaki heritage theory, because it accounts for why the Uzumaki do not manifest possess the rinnegan dojutsu. And why it was passed to the to the Uchiha, descendants of the elder son. By not explaining why senju and uchiha dna are needed to create the rinnegan, and why the sons of Rikudou represent yin and yang of a god, you failed to prove that Rikudou Sennin had the rinnegan before becoming the Juubi's jinchuuriki.
Also, another example of bad logic is the assumption that chakra cannot be used unless it is understood and a framework is in place. This is a formal fallacy. It's like saying, in the past, folk medicine could not cure an illness, because modern medicine had yet to be invented. That's simply not the case. There very well may have been a folk-ninjutsu or some other system that, although did not explain the truth behind chakra, could utilize chakra. You can't prove otherwise. Kishimoto has yet to reveal that conclusion either way.
In conclusion (although I could definitely go on), if you don't want formal criticism, please don't try to pass off an opinion as solid evidence and or absolute fact. That said, as before, I did enjoy the read, and I appreciate the effort.