[Theory] Why Rinnegan has no Genjutsu.

[Draxus]

Precisely, because the Rinnegan uses both at once.

Now, thats not saying that a Rinnegan user can't use a powerful genjutsu. They can, but not directly through the eyes. Maybe through sound or hand seals, like Infinite Darkness by Hashirama or Tayuya's flute.

How exactly did you come the conclusion that powerful yin chakra is necessary for genjutsu? Also what jutsu requires powerful yang chakra?

To me it seems you're using circular logic.

 

[Senju Bean]

How exactly did you come the conclusion that powerful yin chakra is necessary for genjutsu? Also what jutsu requires powerful yang chakra?

To me it seems you're using circular logic.

In one of the chapters, 2nd Mizukage said Genjutsu is Yin release.

Yang is stuff like healing wounds, regenerating, Mokuton etc.

 

[Senju Bean]

If it wasn't a watered down version, then Sharingans couldn't become Rinnegans, but they can, just like MS becomes EMS.

So you're saying it's NOT POSSIBLE for Rinnegan to use an ability that's mostly yin or yang chakra? Does this mean a being of mostly yang chakra won't be able to preform powerful genjutsu too?

A being of mostly Yang chakra can use genjutsu, but it would be difficult. Hashirama used the bringer of darkness genjutsu. Such a being would need to use precise control by using the Yin and holding back the Yang at the same time.

The Rinnegan is different,

The Rinnegan has the Yin and Yang fused so that whenever the eye uses one, similar or equal amounts of the other comes along with it. That is why the Rinnegan didn't show genjutsu all this time. That is why Madara had to switch from the Rinnegan to the Sharingan to cast genjutsu. It's because he couldn't do it with just the Rinnegan. It has to be this way because otherwise, Madara would have used the Rinnegan to cast genjutsu.

 

[Draxus]

A being of mostly Yang chakra can use genjutsu, but it would be difficult. Hashirama used the bringer of darkness genjutsu. Such a being would need to use precise control by using the Yin and holding back the Yang at the same time.

The Rinnegan is different,

The Rinnegan has the Yin and Yang fused so that whenever the eye uses one, similar or equal amounts of the other comes along with it. That is why the Rinnegan didn't show genjutsu up till now. That is why Madara had to switch from the Rinnegan to the Sharingan to cast genjutsu. It's because he couldn't do it with just the Rinnegan. It has to be this way because otherwise, Madara would have used the Rinnegan to cast genjutsu.

I still say chakra rod's manipulation is in fact a genjutsu.

 

[Senju Bean]

I still say chakra rod's manipulation is in fact a genjutsu.

If it is, which I don't think it is, it's would be a weak genjutsu. The Rinnegan in this instance probably uses only slightly more Yin than Yang.

The rods can't even alter perception or control minds, it just binds the body. It can't even act from a distance, which is most genjutsu's selling point. Hardly an effective genjutsu at all, if it even is one.

 

[yoshimitsu]

I don't quite understand what you are talking about. Some shinobi have kekkei genkai genjutsu and don't have rinnegan/sharingan. Many learn genjutsu with no kekkei genkai as well.

At any rate, fruits generally have seeds. Each seed has all the information it needs to sprout a brand new tree.

 

[Senju Bean]

I don't quite understand what you are talking about. Some shinobi have kekkei genkai genjutsu and don't have rinnegan/sharingan. Many learn genjutsu with no kekkei genkai as well.

At any rate, fruits generally have seeds. Each seed has all the information it needs to sprout a brand new tree.

Yes but they must learn to use Yin release; they are releasing the Yin and holding back the Yang.

Offspring, i.e product of fruit, are not 100% genetically identical to parent.

 

[yoshimitsu]

Still don't understand your point. Doesn't matter yin or yang, genjutsu can be learned by anyone (just not all kinds of genjutsu).

And we have only seen 5 rinnegan techniques: bansho tenin, shinra tensei, rinne tensei, chibaku tensei, and the latest Madara's rinnegan technique. How can you claim rinnegan has no special genjutsu when it is required for infinite tsukiyomi?

Don't argue that only Sharingan is needed otherwise Madara would have done it without the need of Obito and Nagato.

 

[Senju Bean]

Still don't understand your point. Doesn't matter yin or yang, genjutsu can be learned by anyone (just not all kinds of genjutsu).

And we have only seen 5 rinnegan techniques: bansho tenin, shinra tensei, rinne tensei, chibaku tensei, and the latest Madara's rinnegan technique. How can you claim rinnegan has no special genjutsu when it is required for infinite tsukiyomi?

Don't argue that only Sharingan is needed otherwise Madara would have done it without the need of Obito and Nagato.

Infinite Tsukuyomi comes from the Shinju's eye, a Yin construct.


Look, the Rinnegan is Yin and Yang fused together. Whenever a Rinnegan users tries to use Yin, an equal or similar amount of Yang automatically comes with it.

Genjutsu is mostly Yin without the Yang.

That is why Rinnegan doesn't specialize in genjutsu.

 

[yoshimitsu]

Is your claim the ability to use genjutsu or to use it proficiently?

also claiming the juubi eye is the source of yin and its body of yang is so arbitrary since you say rinnegan users cannot use genjutsu or use it effectively because they are drawing on both yin and yang.

 

[Senju Bean]

Is your claim the ability to use genjutsu or to use it proficiently?

also claiming the juubi eye is the source of yin and its body of yang is so arbitrary since you say rinnegan users cannot use genjutsu or use it effectively because they are drawing on both yin and yang.

To use it proficiently mostly. I still have a hunch that it may not use it at all, but I need to think deeper into it.

Not arbitary at all. The Uchiha are Yin and their Sharingan looks like the Juubi eye, the Senju are Yang and Hashirama's Mokuton looks like the branches of the Shinju. We can infer a relation.

 

[Draxus]

If it is, which I don't think it is, it's would be a weak genjutsu. The Rinnegan in this instance probably uses only slightly more Yin than Yang.

The rods can't even alter perception or control minds, it just binds the body. It can't even act from a distance, which is most genjutsu's selling point. Hardly an effective genjutsu at all, if it even is one.

Again... this was my original point. You changed the definition of genjutsu to fit your theory. Range has nothing to do with it. Secondly, you're wrong on both points. It does effect the mind because it binds the body, not sure you know how the body works. As for it's range, Nagato and Obito were able to manipulate bodies at range, Nagato to a much greater extent.

If your saying genjutsu has to create an illusion of some sort, you're actually wrong. Or rather if you're saying only a truly powerful genjutsu creates an illusion, you'd have already contradicted yourself.

 

[Senju Bean]

Again... this was my original point. You changed the definition of genjutsu to fit your theory. Range has nothing to do with it. Secondly, you're wrong on both points. It does effect the mind because it binds the body, not sure you know how the body works. As for it's range, Nagato and Obito were able to manipulate bodies at range, Nagato to a much greater extent.

If your saying genjutsu has to create an illusion of some sort, you're actually wrong. Or rather if you're saying only a truly powerful genjutsu creates an illusion, you'd have already contradicted yourself.

Ok so you are saying that Shikimaru's shadow bind is a genjutsu? Really?

If you are going to ko someone are you going to throw rods at them or hit them with a tsukuyomi? Which is powerful?

 

[Draxus]

Ok so you are saying that Shikimaru's shadow bind is a genjutsu? Really?

If you are going to ko someone are you going to throw rods at them or hit them with a tsukuyomi? Which is powerful?

Not exactly, because the shadow doesn't alter or effect the victims chakra, however it's also yin release.

Your last two questions have no baring on weather you theory makes sense or not. Depending on the opponent rods would be more preferable and/or more powerful. Also even if tsuki was more powerful, would that make chakra rods less powerful? What exactly are the criteria for "a powerful genjutsu" that you are using?

 

[Senju Bean]

Not exactly, because the shadow doesn't alter or effect the victims chakra, however it's also yin release.

Your last two questions have no baring on weather you theory makes sense or not. Depending on the opponent rods would be more preferable and/or more powerful. Also even if tsuki was more powerful, would that make chakra rods less powerful? What exactly are the criteria for "a powerful genjutsu" that you are using?

It can alter it somewhat. Shadow has no mass which means it itself can't actually provide the force to bind which in turn implies the mechanism of paralyzing the opponent must come through chakra alteration.

Well, most genjutsu can't kill. So efficacy would be determined by how fast a genjutsu hits the opponent.

 

[Draxus]

It can alter it somewhat. Shadow has no mass which means it itself can't actually provide the force to bind which in turn implies the mechanism of paralyzing the opponent must come through chakra alteration.

Well, most genjutsu can't kill. So efficacy would be determined by how fast a genjutsu hits the opponent.

Please don't confuse real life physics w/ narutoverse physics. Many fictional worlds in manga and anime have ninja's paralyzing opponents by pinning their shadows. Though it's possible it could be genjutsu, I have seen no confirmation of it actually effecting the victims chakra. If it does though, it certainly is a genjutsu.

Well if speed is your determing factor, it be pretty much impossible to differentiate since they are all pretty much instant. I submit the strength of a genjutsu is measured by 1)how unsuspectedly it can be caste, 2)how hard it is to avoid, and then 3)how hard it is to break. If you agree w/ that then I think chakra rods rates pretty high in factors 1 and 3. However not so much in 2, since that depends on the speed and reaction time of the user and victim. To compare KA is unmatched in all 3.

 

[Rikud0 Sennin]

...........isnt infinate tsukiomi a rinnigan genjutsu

 

[Uzumakisan]

You can't just change the definition of genjutsu to fit your theory. Genjustsu by definition is using your chakra to effect your opponent's chakra network. This can cause illusions, sleep, paralysis, or even allow you to control their body. It has nothing to do w/ range, and doesn't specifically target the mind.

So chakra rods can be used to cause a type of genjutsu.

Agree, I always thought about the chakra rods as "physical genjutsu", as we already saw ocular genjutsus (sharingan), sound genjutsus (frog song) and all.

Even so, we already saw Madara using Susanoo by Rinnegan, and Rinnegan is the direct evolution of Sharingan, there is no reason for him to loose his sharingan abilities. (that talking about ocular Genjutsus)

 

[Draxus]

...........isnt infinate tsukiomi a rinnigan genjutsu

No, it's an ability of the juubi jinchuriki

 

[Rikud0 Sennin]

No, it's an ability of the juubi jinchuriki

who, in turn, has the rinnegan. Yes, youd need to be the juubi jin to use it, but it is still used with a rinnegan. Correct?