Why Is Hashirima Senju so Weak?

[Hipster Madara]

In the sense that he can control so many people. They tried to say Orochimaru had an imperfect version on the jutsu; no, he perfected it.

Kabuto stated that by leaving intact their personalities, it makes them more effective.
So yes, essentially, Orochimaru had a slightly imperfect version.
Why so stuck on the specific wording? It's translated from Japanese.
Also, perfected can also mean different things.



perfected
[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt]  
verb (used with object)
18.
to bring to completion; finish.
19.
to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless. <---- your take on it
20.
to bring nearer to perfection; improve. <---- most likely what was meant
21.
to make fully skilled.
22.
Printing . to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).

 

[EliteKakashi]

That is purely your assumption, I could say he surpassed them by being able to give them complete free will, although that may not necessarily be true.

The manga does not state the level of improvement (as far as I recall) so it is up to the reader to interpret how they wish to see it.

That's confirmed not to be true.

When Oro summoned Hashi and Tobi, they both had free will. He developed the ability to control them, which is how he perfected it.

 

[mas129]

That's confirmed not to be true.

When Oro summoned Hashi and Tobi, they both had free will. He developed the ability to control them, which is how he perfected it.

Bullsh*t, if they had complete free will, there is no way they would attack Hiruzen. That makes no sense.

Let me give you the perfect example: edo Nagato

Kabuto took complete control of Nagato because he knew he would not fight Naruto, or at the very least, tell him the ways to avoid his attacks, therefore, Kabuto took over and look how the fight ended up.

edit: I would also like to add the word complete free will. Best example of this is edo Madara who Kabuto didn't even dare to control in the slightest, and actually sucked up to.

Therefore Madara ended up using an array of moves, if Kabuto was in control, due to his lack of knowledge of certain abilities, we would not see them, flower world, that massive meteor and perfect sasuno are examples.

 

[Stefan B]

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[Ryuu..]

Kabuto stated that by leaving intact their personalities, it makes them more effective.
So yes, essentially, Orochimaru had a slightly imperfect version.
Why so stuck on the specific wording? It's translated from Japanese.
Also, perfected can also mean different things.



perfected
[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt]  
verb (used with object)
18.
to bring to completion; finish.
19.
to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless. <---- your take on it
20.
to bring nearer to perfection; improve. <---- most likely what was meant
21.
to make fully skilled.
22.
Printing . to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).

Bullsh*t, if they had complete free will, there is no way they would attack Hiruzen. That makes no sense.

Let me give you the perfect example: edo Nagato

Kabuto took complete control of Nagato because he knew he would not fight Naruto, or at the very least, tell him the ways to avoid his attacks, therefore, Kabuto took over and look how the fight ended up.

The REASON Oro took away their free will is because they WOULDN'T fight Hiruzen. They could've fought with free will if Oro allowed it, but in this situation he clearly could not.

 

[Omnislash X SageMode]

recently in the manga it has been shown that madara can easily take out all of the kage. Then he later stated that hashirima senju is the only one that can defeat him. So if hashirima senju is stronger than madara who is stronger than all of the kage how come when orochimaru revived him and his brother they could not defeat old man third hokage?

because they were edo tensei!!....which means he forced them to fight against their wishes....all edo's are never considered in their prime....they are puppets...puppets are not in their prime....also...please do not use ABC logic....that is why your post is somewhat of fail
That>your post,Sorry..

to lighten the mood here is a photo of swag
Good day sir

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[arv993]

oro was toying with hiruzen

 

[Hipster Madara]

The REASON Oro took away their free will is because they WOULDN'T fight Hiruzen. They could've fought with free will if Oro allowed it, but in this situation he clearly could not.

In many cases during this "war", Kabuto has forced the edos to fight someone they do not wish to fight (ex. Sai's brother) while keeping their personalities intact.
This is more proof that Kabuto improved Edo Tensei beyond what Orochimaru was capable of.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Bullsh*t, if they had complete free will, there is no way they would attack Hiruzen. That makes no sense.

Let me give you the perfect example: edo Nagato

Kabuto took complete control of Nagato because he knew he would not fight Naruto, or at the very least, tell him the ways to avoid his attacks, therefore, Kabuto took over and look how the fight ended up.

edit: I would also like to add the word complete free will. Best example of this is edo Madara who Kabuto didn't even dare to control in the slightest, and actually sucked up to.

Therefore Madara ended up using an array of moves, if Kabuto was in control, due to his lack of knowledge of certain abilities, we would not see them, flower world, that massive meteor and perfect sasuno are examples.

Read the manga, bro. Oro states that kunai or whatever it was he implanted in to their heads removes their free will.

Spoiler

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[Multiply]

Plot no Jutsu. If Madara and Izuna were summoned instead of the Senju brothers, they would've experienced the same fate.

This, U_U

 

[Ryuu..]

In many cases during this "war", Kabuto has forced the edos to fight someone they do not wish to fight (ex. Sai's brother) while keeping their personalities intact.
This is more proof that Kabuto improved Edo Tensei beyond what Orochimaru was capable of.

Eh? You speak as if Orochimaru told/controlled/determined what moves the Senju brothers used. Last I checked, they were under his full control, but still acting by themselves. I recall Kabuto putting the exact same tag into the back of Deidara's head.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

It's simply a plot hole, yes it was said Orochimaru perfected edo tensei. In Naruto part 1 Hashrama wasnt seen as the strongest ninja thats ever lived. In part 2 however Kishi needed someone to rival Madara and seeing as Madara is spanking the 5 kage and hashirama defeated, he has to be OP and considered the strongest

 

[Hipster Madara]

Eh? You speak as if Orochimaru told/controlled/determined what moves the Senju brothers used. Last I checked, they were under his full control, but still acting by themselves. I recall Kabuto putting the exact same tag into the back of Deidara's head.

To a different extent. The Senjus didn't even use some of their most prominent jutsus......
How can you be so sure it is the exact same tag?

 

[Ryuu..]

To a different extent. The Senjus didn't even use some of their most prominent jutsus......
How can you be so sure it is the exact same tag?

It's a stretch to say that Kabuto, who summoned 20 odd Edos, is expected to reach the same degree of control as Orochimaru did, when he summoned and controlled only two ninja (who were also in close proximity to Oro). So while Kabuto, as you said, suppressed the will of certain shinobi, the suppression of their will was not as powerful as Orochimaru's suppression of the Senju's will.

The Senjus didn't use their most powerful jutsu because of plot. The same can be said of Hiruzen, he clearly didn't use his most powerful jutsu, though that was down to his age.

 

[mas129]

Read the manga, bro. Oro states that kunai or whatever it was he implanted in to their heads removes their free will.

Spoiler

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You realise before he put the talisman in, they were far weaker version of themselves, only once it goes in do they start gaining "vitality".

Once the talisman is in

Spoiler

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Hiruzen's quote:

Spoiler

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If he doesn't put the talisman in, I doubt they would be able to do any damage whatsoever. Once he does, he controls them and they are at strength.

Also I just realised that the point you are arguing was just an example I gave, which I said could be wrong.

 

[EliteKakashi]

You realise before he put the talisman in, they were far weaker version of themselves, only once it goes in do they start gaining "vitality".

Once the talisman is in

Spoiler

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Hiruzen's quote:

Spoiler

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If he doesn't put the talisman in, I doubt they would be able to do any damage whatsoever. Once he does, he controls them and they are at strength.

Also I just realised that the point you are arguing was just an example I gave, which I said could be wrong.

If he doesn't put the talisman in you doubt they can do any damage? So what exactly did Tobirama ever use the technique for? Just to look at people who had died in the past? He used it enough to become known for it.

They could have fought without the talisman, otherwise it would make no sense that Tobirama became known for using the technique.

 

[mas129]

If he doesn't put the talisman in you doubt they can do any damage? So what exactly did Tobirama ever use the technique for? Just to look at people who had died in the past? He used it enough to become known for it.

They could have fought without the talisman, otherwise it would make no sense that Tobirama became known for using the technique.

After the talisman goes in they became stronger, this is clearly shown in the manga

Once the talisman is in

Spoiler

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Hiruzen's quote:

Spoiler

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Do you see how they became stronger once the talisman went in?

Also, I don't know why Tobirama created edo tensei and that has nothing to do with this because his version was even worse than Oro's.

Anyway, good talk, I'm off now :ice:

 

[EliteKakashi]

After the talisman goes in they became stronger, this is clearly shown in the manga

Once the talisman is in

Spoiler

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Hiruzen's quote:

Spoiler

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Do you see how they became stronger once the talisman went in?

Also, I don't know why Tobirama created edo tensei and that has nothing to do with this because his version was even worse than Oro's.

Anyway, good talk, I'm off now :ice:

You said "I doubt they would be able to do any damage what so ever". Tobirama used the technique, which means they were able to fight and do damage.

 

[darthvader5666]

plot no jutsu. Either that, or a retcon.

 

[arv993]

are u guys forgetting that oro was clearly playing around with hiruzen. he didnt even participate the fight that much. he was toying with him and he even mentioned that

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and they could have landed many lethal blows b4 he prepared his final jutsu but they didnt as oro wanted to see what it was. he was simply arrogant.