[Discussion] Why Did'nt Itachi...

[NarutoKage2]

I was going through some old manga chapters and something struck me as kinda odd. Why did'nt Itachi recognize Kakashi's sharingan as being Tobi/Obito's?


A lot of people may think he could'nt have, but here are some points to consider:

- The sharingan can read chakra:

Spoiler

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Itachi reaffirms that the sharingan can detect chakra and that's how he knew Sasuke's was depleted. Anyway,

- Ao was able to instantly recognize chakra that belonged to Shisui, because he was familiar with it:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

Just by looking at Danzo's concealed eye, Ao was able to tell it belonged to Shisui. Sure, the byakugan has better vision depth than the sharingan, but surely Itachi looking at the open eye of Kakashi would have made that eye seem familiar to him? ??

-Itachi is someone who is able to sense familiar presences(possibly chakra?) with ease:

Spoiler

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Sasuke was standing directly behind him and he knew it, yet could'nt figure out that Kakashi's eye was Tobi's?
It should have been familiar.


-Some people may say that the person Itachi met was in fact real Madara and not Obito, that's false. Itachi thought it was Madara, but the person was Obito because:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

Ok, so even if Madara had been alive at the time of the Uchiha clan massacre and met Itachi, at this time when Sasuke fights Itachi we know for a fact Madara is now dead because he's revived later as an Edo Tensei. Yet Itachi still says Madara is very much alive, meaning Itachi always thought that masked man Obito was Madara!

Another proof:

Spoiler

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That guy in the background kishi shows is Itachi referring to Madara, who we now know is Obito.

Spoiler

-Remember, the person who trained Itachi and helped him massacre the Uchiha was Obito and Itachi also knew his eye well. The Amtetarasu he implanted in Sasuke's eyes were set to react (and they did) to seeing Obito's eye, which is a anotherr proof that Itachi knew all about that eye. When they first met, Itachi compliments Kakashi's eye, but nowhere does he have a shocked expression the way he should have after seeing basically his sensei's other sharingan:

Spoiler

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It just seems strange that right till the end someone like Itachi was able to make no connection between the 2 sharingan of Tobi and Kakashi, whereas they came from the same source.

P.S: Sorry for the length, but i had to clarify my point of view.

 

[-Logic-]

Plot

No

Joot

Soo.

 

[repulse]

...Itachi did not know Obito? Never has it been shown that he knew him. And Obito unlocked the Sharingan BEFORE Itachi did. So he wouldn't be able to identify it.

 

[Awkward Linguist]

Plot

No

Joot

Soo.

Exactly

What

I

Was

Going

To

Say

 

[-Logic-]

Exactly

What

I

Was

Going

To

Say

Great

Minds

Think

Alike

 

[shanee]

Exactly

What

I

Was

Going

To

Say

Boom

Diggity

 

[King Of Sharingan]

...Itachi did not know Obito? Never has it been shown that he knew him. And Obito unlocked the Sharingan BEFORE Itachi did. So he wouldn't be able to identify it.

I thought so too, but then I remembered that Itachi talked with Masked Man who was Obito in reality.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Plot

No

Joot

Soo.

Plot no jutsu....so you're saying this is a plot hole by kishi that Itachi did'nt recognize Kakashi's sharingan?

 

[partha420]

Umm...dunno

 

[Punk Hazard]

Ao was able to identify Shisui's chakra because he is a Sensor. All Sensor's are capable of identifying people via certain chakra signatures. No Sharingan is capable of such a thing.

Itachi knew it was Sasuke because he was the only possible person who could have been there at that time.

Itachi has probably never seen Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan, only his 3T.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Ao was able to identify Shisui's chakra because he is a Sensor. All Sensor's are capable of identifying people via certain chakra signatures. No Sharingan is capable of such a thing.

Itachi knew it was Sasuke because he was the only possible person who could have been there at that time.

Itachi has probably never seen Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan, only his 3T.

Do you have any proof for the bolded statement? Because Jiraiya was with Naruto, both Kisame and Itachi knew that and Itachi was looking the other way . He STILL knew it was Sasuke.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Do you have any proof for the bolded statement? Because Jiraiya was with Naruto, both Kisame and Itachi knew that and Itachi was looking the other way . He STILL knew it was Sasuke.

I thought you were talking about when they had their last battle. No, I don't have proof, but rest.assured, Itachi isn't a sensor.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I thought you were talking about when they had their last battle. No, I don't have proof, but rest.assured, Itachi isn't a sensor.

No i was'nt. Anyways being a sensor is'nt the point. We know the sharingan can read chakra and each sharingan has chakra. Despite being exposed to Tobi's sharingan(not to mention his chakra) he did'nt recognize Kakashi's sharingan as having the same/similar chakra.

EDIT: Hang on!! Your sensor argument made me think of something. Karin has seen both Tobi and then Kakashi's sharingan/chakra and STILL did'nt find any similarity between the two....now she is a sensor...(back when Sasuke was at 5 kage summit/fought Danzo)

 

[Blaze Release]

The issue of chakra has already been rectified by you when you noted that the byakugan has a superior insight ability than the sharingan and if i remember correctly, the sharingan can vaguely see the chakra holes.

The issue however is that he saw clear tobi's sharingan even in the mask to remember it vividly to use the fuinjutsu on sasuke. If he remembers tobi's sharingan clearly, he should also note that its the same eye that kakashi uses. However its very possible that itachi has never seen tobi's sharingan, he would know he has the sharingan however whether he has seen it and remembered it vividly is unknown because in the mask tobi's sharingan is very hard to see. Deidora a sharingan hater who was a partner of tobi didnt know he had the sharingan or else he wouldve gone crazy. Sasuke a sharingan user came close in proximity and he didnt know he had the sharingan. What im saying is that itachi couldve not seen tobi's sharingan, but he implanted amaterasu in sasuke to activate at the sight of a sharingan. He knows that apart from sasuke the only 2 people with the sharingan are tobi and kakashi. He knows that tobi has an interest in sasuke therefore the first person who's sasuke's eyes meet with the sharingan would get amaterasu'ed.

 

[Codex]

I agree that it raises some questions, many of which likely will never be answered. On the other hand, there's a simple explanation for this pic:

Spoiler

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Tobi was shown, not as Madara himself, but as an example of someone who "became just like Madara."

 

[NarutoKage2]

The issue of chakra has already been rectified by you when you noted that the byakugan has a superior insight ability than the sharingan and if i remember correctly, the sharingan can vaguely see the chakra holes.

The issue however is that he saw clear tobi's sharingan even in the mask to remember it vividly to use the fuinjutsu on sasuke. If he remembers tobi's sharingan clearly, he should also note that its the same eye that kakashi uses. However its very possible that itachi has never seen tobi's sharingan, he would know he has the sharingan however whether he has seen it and remembered it vividly is unknown because in the mask tobi's sharingan is very hard to see. Deidora a sharingan hater who was a partner of tobi didnt know he had the sharingan or else he wouldve gone crazy. Sasuke a sharingan user came close in proximity and he didnt know he had the sharingan. What im saying is that itachi couldve not seen tobi's sharingan, but he implanted amaterasu in sasuke to activate at the sight of a sharingan. He knows that apart from sasuke the only 2 people with the sharingan are tobi and kakashi. He knows that tobi has an interest in sasuke therefore the first person who's sasuke's eyes meet with the sharingan would get amaterasu'ed.

The problem then is that Tobi categorically said to Sasuke that Itachi rigged Ametarasu to activate at the sight of my eye, i.e specifically Tobi's sharingan and not just any sharingan in general.

Also note that Deidara has no occular abilities. I bring this up because when Kakashi was first shown to meet him, he DID recognize Tobi's sharingan (chapter 396 or 397 i think). So Itachi with 2 sharingans not being able to notice that does'nt fit. Its very dubious in any case that Itachi would call him 'Madara' and not know whether or not he has a sharingan. Remember that Sasuke did'nt really take notice of Tobi as he was busy fighting Deidara while Itachi met him face to face before and probably during and after the Uchiha clan massacre.

 

[supino]

plot holes, same as Hinata not spotting that Tobi had the same sharingan while Kakashi was right next to her.


(though imho it could -could- show that Kishi hadn't made up his mind for most of the time and just made the plot to accommodate for both possibilities of Tobi being either Obito or Madara)

 

[Blaze Release]

The problem then is that Tobi categorically said to Sasuke that Itachi rigged Ametarasu to activate at the sight of my eye, i.e specifically Tobi's sharingan and not just any sharingan in general.

Also note that Deidara has no occular abilities. I bring this up because when Kakashi was first shown to meet him, he DID recognize Tobi's sharingan (chapter 396 or 397 i think). So Itachi with 2 sharingans not being able to notice that does'nt fit. Its very dubious in any case that Itachi would call him 'Madara' and not know whether or not he has a sharingan. Remember that Sasuke did'nt really take notice of Tobi as he was busy fighting Deidara while Itachi met him face to face before and probably during and after the Uchiha clan massacre.

Think you just solved it then, when you used kakashi. As you said kakashi saw through the mask and saw that tobi had the sharingan. Yet he also wasnt able to grasp that its the same sharingan that he uses. Which could very well mean that you cannot tell a persons 3 tomoe sharingan from the other and randomly identify it as for example (this sharingan belongs to setsuna/yakumi). Meaning all sharingans are the same/cannot be distinguished however itachi remembering tobi's specifically is what allowed him to use the fuinjutsu

The reason Ao was able to locate shisui/danzo connection isnt from the sharingan, but from him being able to see very clearly the chakra system/holes, but more importantly him being a sensor, he was able to remember shishi's chakra and its because of this information that he was able to come to the conclusion that danzo is using shisui's eye.

+Rep for thread

 

[NarutoKage2]

Think you just solved it then, when you used kakashi. As you said kakashi saw through the mask and saw that tobi had the sharingan. Yet he also wasnt able to grasp that its the same sharingan that he uses. Which could very well mean that you cannot tell a persons 3 tomoe sharingan from the other and randomly identify it as for example (this sharingan belongs to setsuna/yakumi). Meaning all sharingans are the same/cannot be distinguished however itachi remembering tobi's specifically is what allowed him to use the fuinjutsu

The reason Ao was able to locate shisui/danzo connection isnt from the sharingan, but from him being able to see very clearly the chakra system/holes, but more importantly him being a sensor, he was able to remember shishi's chakra and its because of this information that he was able to come to the conclusion that danzo is using shisui's eye.

+Rep for thread

Woah...not bad. That actually makes a lot of sense. So its solved then, a 3 tomoe sharingan user CANNOT identify whose sharingan he's looking at if its also a 3 tomoe(or less) , correct? Great deduction work.

Now lets just hope kishi stays consistent with this logic we have just (quite correctly) discovered. A few questions unrelated to Itachi but which still seem unresolved:

-Karin, despite being a sensor still was unable to make a connection between Tobi's chakra and that of Kakashi's sharingan(she was exposed to both)
-As supino said, Hinata also saw both Tobi and Kakashi yet could'nt make any Ao-like conclusions.

I hope the above 2 points don't just get waived off as plot and have an explanation to them. Any ideas?

 

[Sentinel]

ask yourself this, the amateratsu that was implanted on sasuke only activated when tobi was removing his mask, why?
during the small time after sasuke awakens from his battle with itachi up to the moment tobi takes of his mask tobi was looking directly at sasuke, and sasuke did glance in his direction a couple of times so his sharingan must have shown through the mask aswell. and what about afterward, I'm sure their eye's must have crossed again, so why didn't amateratsu come out again, unless it was a one shot deal, but that would be pointless since if tobi survives the first strike he can just take his mask of whenever he wants in front of sasuke, that would not fit itachi's briliant stragegist way.

I'm thinking there is another reason, I'm thinking the material the mask was made of has some sort of chakra blocking ability's and is able to keep chakra inside or outside for that matter. one possible bit of proof might be that tobi riped of part of his mask to uze izanagi with his second eye when fightign konan. it would also be a good way to preserve chakra from tobi's point of view.
this chakra blocking material might make it hard for sensors and other gifted shinobi to identify and compare tobi's chakra to anyone else. as tobi at that point wanted to remain unknown that would also fit his wishes.

not saying it's true, just trowing out a possible option into the discussion.