Why Ashura/Senju are > than Indra/Uchiha and the implications it holds.

DarkStar1

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I see a couple misguided users under the impression that Ashura ambushed Indra with an army, which simply isn't the case. Allow me to clarify.

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We know that Ashura, like Naruto, was not born with his talent overflowing like Indra. Indra inherited the genius and potent chakra of his father which manifested in his strong eyes. We also know that Indra was incredibly skilled and walked alone, understanding his power was individual and special.

Ashura, again, like Naruto, was not born with that kind of power at his fingertips. They required great effort and the cooperation, unity, and love of others to spur them forward. This is where a lot of people turn their brains off and go, "Durr, Indra s0lo" and the like. But it's not the case. Ashura valued the bonds of others and used that to reach his true strength. And through having love and others to fight for, his chakra bloomed and he was able to become .

This is exactly the same sentiment Haku echoed constantly and informed Naruto of. That only when you have others behind you and something worth while to protect, that's the only time you are truly strong.
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And, as was revealed last chapter, Indra, the Uchiha, and all of Indra's vessels to , the Senju, and Ashura's vessel. This is why Indra and the Uchiha lose; because they are unable to walk the appropriate path. They selfishly fight for themselves and walk alone, and thus, can never reach the power they want. This is where the Cycle of Hatred stems from and what keeps Ashura, Indra, and all the transmigrants from reaching peace.

This is where Hagoromo and Hamura come in. Naruto and Sasuke have been compared to Hagoromo and Hamura constantly lately, with Naruto being Hagoromo and Sasuke being Hamura. As seen by Kaguya herself in both and where Kaguya saw Hagoromo's figure by Naruto. But not only that, we see that Hagoromo also had the same Sun mark that Naruto carries on his right palm.

Why is this relevant? Because Hamura and Hagoromo both effectively defeated the Juubi and sealed it away. They worked together, just as Naruto and Sasuke are now. But why is only Hagoromo known throughout the ninja world? If we extrapolate what we know, we can gather a few things. Such as Hamura must have had the Moon mark on his left palm as Sasuke bears now, he clearly has the Byakugan which connects all the dojutsu and completes that circle as Kakashi pointed out in the Chuunin Exams, and that he must have died in the fight with the Juubi, otherwise why wouldn't he be known like his brother?.

AllHailKurama touched on this idea beautifully in his thread here.


To paraphrase, originally, Hagoromo and Hamura were like Ashura/Indra and Naruto/Sasuke, purely Yang and Yin in nature. During the fight with the Juubi to make up for their mother's sins, Hamura perished but passed his chakra to his brother to finish the fight and establish true peace, finally balancing perfectly. In essence, Hamura was a perfected Indra. But the equation went back to square 1 upon the birth of Ashura and Indra because the chakra was divided evenly again into Yin and Yang and the conflict sprouted forth.

In conclusion, this may very well be Sasuke's path, that of Hamura. We know he is misguided and disgruntled, as reflects in every word and action these last few chapters, but we also know he has to be redeemed. Whether it be posthumously as AllHailKurama has asserted with Hamura or by Naruto's own hand during this fight, we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for reading and I hope this aids in the understanding of the topic :win:
 

DarkStar1

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Uchiha > Senju
We know that's not true, man. Itachi is not a typical Uchiha though as his Will of Fire is off the charts. He knows the right path and has shown himself a noble person. You don't have to consider Itachi lumped in with his forsaken clanmates in this ideal because he effectively broke free of the Curse of Hatred and showed he's not able to be trapped within that Cycle.
 

ANiMUS

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Not gonna read

Ashura=Indra
NAruto=Sasuke

Indra and Ashura fought straight up and both died. If you are talking about this scan:
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They are basically saying that Hagoromo chose Ashura over Indra. They fought after this, that fight was apparently instigated by BZ
 

giostep

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We know that's not true, man. Itachi is not a typical Uchiha though as his Will of Fire is off the charts. He knows the right path and has shown himself a noble person. You don't have to consider Itachi lumped in with his forsaken clanmates in this ideal because he effectively broke free of the Curse of Hatred and showed he's not able to be trapped within that Cycle.
Itachi is an Outlier. Outliers are removed to show true stats =).
 

KingHashirama

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We know that's not true, man. Itachi is not a typical Uchiha though as his Will of Fire is off the charts. He knows the right path and has shown himself a noble person. You don't have to consider Itachi lumped in with his forsaken clanmates in this ideal because he effectively broke free of the Curse of Hatred and showed he's not able to be trapped within that Cycle.
Every single uchiha believed in the Will of Fire.. its like you people ignore what the will of fire is.. What did Hashirama say when it comes to being Hokage? That the people of the village make up each part of his body. But what was the government of Konoha doing? Bickerings going on between Danzo and Hiruzen.. Orochimaru and others plotting against the Hokage...So when the Uchiha see the corruption going on.. of course they are gonna try to overthrow it.. notice that in the anime.. They specifically say that Uchiha clan's first priority is the safety of the village.. Hence why they were furthermore pissed off when they were put on the side during the Kurama invasion..


Again Uchiha got played by Konoha politicians.. And for some reasons fans don't seem to realize it..
 
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Tennis Robot

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I think there are some inherent problems with this. For one thing, a "perfected Indra" would likely be much stronger than Ashura, for he will have taken the selfishness out of his brilliance and would fight for others as Ashura does. Also it is never stated that Hagoromo/Hamura are an Ashura/Indra pair. Hagoromo does not come across as an Ashura at all during our encounter with him, and the fact that one of his sons could inherit his talent means that he could not have been an Ashura. However, if what you are saying turns out to be true, the final Naruto vs Sasuke fight will never happen, which is something that has been hyped up for a long time now.
 

Umari Senju

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Uchiha suck
I concur.

Uchiha > Senju
Senu > Uchiha
maybe hago has amnesia from old age and didnt remeber he had a bro.
Seriously, that's what happens when you're like 400 years old XD

We know that's not true, man. Itachi is not a typical Uchiha though as his Will of Fire is off the charts. He knows the right path and has shown himself a noble person. You don't have to consider Itachi lumped in with his forsaken clanmates in this ideal because he effectively broke free of the Curse of Hatred and showed he's not able to be trapped within that Cycle.
Well said!
 

SIR UZMAKIMADARA

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Some sasuke fans are just mad because manga is not on their side that's why they troll others for no reason

BTW i agree with you Ashura > Indra because Selfish desire to walk alone let them weak

In reality Indra and his incarnations are power bandwagoners but ashura and his incarnations have different priorities..They don't run for Power and they in reality are more powerful than indra or his incarnations..

Indra and his incarnations lack guts to never give up because they have no intention of protecting their comrades but on the other side ashura and his incarnations have guts to never give up which enable them to defeat any opponent because they have intentions to protect their comrades no matter it takes
 
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ShinjuMadara

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Not possible, Asura and Indra were born before the Juubi was sealed, which means Hamura was alive and had his powers at the time of their birth, Kaguya knew them and was able to recognize him. So in order to pass both Yin and Yang onto his sons, Hagoromo must've had them originally, Hamura probably specialized solely in sealing techs like the Uzumakis which makes more sense.
 

Umari Senju

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Every single uchiha believed in the Will of Fire.. its like you people ignore what the will of fire is.. What did Hashirama say when it comes to being Hokage? That the people of the village make up each part of his body. But what was the government of Konoha doing? Bickerings going on between Danzo and Hiruzen.. Orochimaru and others plotting against the Hokage...So when the Uchiha see the corruption going on.. of course they are gonna try to overthrow it.. notice that in the anime.. They specifically say that Uchiha clan's first priority is the safety of the village.. Hence why they were furthermore pissed off when they were put on the side during the Kurama invasion..


Again Uchiha got played by Konoha politicians.. And for some reasons fans don't seem to realize it..
And you forgot the part where the Uchiha retreated into their own sector and were cold and isolated themselves from everyone after the Kurama incident. They didn't stage the coup because of the corrupt polotics. They planned the coup because they were shunned for something they didn't do. Which is false because it was an Uchiha that started it all(Obito)....Just not the Uchiha everyone thought. Instead of following Hiruzen's way and open up a dialog with the leaders. They chose to retreat into their own clan.

Danzo used this to further the emnity between Clan and Village...and it eventually led to their destruction. The Uchiha are as much to blame as the elders.
 

KingHashirama

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Not possible, Asura and Indra were born before the Juubi was sealed, which means Hamura was alive and had his powers at the time of their birth, Kaguya knew them and was able to recognize him. So in order to pass both Yin and Yang onto his sons, Hagoromo must've had them originally, Hamura probably specialized solely in sealing techs like the Uzumakis which makes more sense.
they were born after the juubi was sealed.. o_O
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VongolaX

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Ashura = Indra
Madara < Hashirama
Sasuke = Naruto
It's pretty much this^^

Black zetsu said he lost the successor to Asuhra.

Meaning Hagromoo's choice against Indra's desire.

It was after Indra lost to Ashura, that he attacked him full power (vice versa) and they killed each other off.
 
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