When did Sasuke become Kage level?

[lanakui8]

You implying base naruto already = kakashi, I don't see anywhere stated base naruto solo kakashi while getting stomped by hebi. That training you stated is only one shot attack(doesn't increase chakra, skill, strength, speed, experience, tactics).

Post timeskip base naruto who was so weakened he couldn't even run without falling down was the one who got stomped by hebi sasuke.

The naruto who was stated to be kakashi's equal or superior is far stronger than that. He didn't just gain FRS, he greatly increased his chakra control, his intelligence and his use of kagebunshins.

Bz is classic, he trolled all nv and nb. If you read the scan zetsu agreeing suigesu that naruto solo pains all by himself. Bz was trolling already. If naruto can solo all pains all by himself, kcm can probably beat ems sasuke

So basically no good reason to not believe Bz was lying about SM Naruto being > MS Sasuke.

Naruto did beat pain from what black zetsu saw, who else was doing the fighting?

Naruto defeated nine tails is nothing but plot. In order to defeat nine tails, he has to be stronger than nine tails. Sm > ninetails??
Nine tails > pains > sm according to manga

Nope, simply saying 'it's plot' isn't in anyway some kind of argument to falsify what happened in the manga.

since when is the bolded true?

 

[Oblivionx]

EMS sasuke was kage level. Before he was not. Kages played with him and when he went 1 vs 1 with danzo, he only won becoz of karin and obito.. Danzo was saving KA for obito, and was contantly worried about obito and karin. He was even saving chakra hence wasn't at 100%... Obito saved him from getting sealed at the end too...
Against deidara he simply won with elemental advantage... By no means he was on deidara's level back then...

 

[TrollKing]

Post timeskip base naruto who was so weakened he couldn't even run without falling down was the one who got stomped by hebi sasuke.

The naruto who was stated to be kakashi's equal or superior is far stronger than that. He didn't just gain FRS, he greatly increased his chakra control, his intelligence and his use of kagebunshins.

So basically no good reason to not believe Bz was lying about SM Naruto being > MS Sasuke.

Naruto did beat pain from what black zetsu saw, who else was doing the fighting?


Nope, simply saying 'it's plot' isn't in anyway some kind of argument to falsify what happened in the manga.

since when is the bolded true?

So you believe part 2 base naruto = kakashi

Naruto had all the help and Intel he needed, he was pinned down by pain, hinata helped, nine tails took over and nagato never had any intention to kill him(he revived the whole village).

You can believe nine tails = sm naruto.
You know when I use "plot"? When pain > kakashi > konohamaru and konohamaru > pain, now that is plot

 

[lanakui8]

So you believe part 2 base naruto = kakashi

of course not since it's not start of part 2 base naruto, it's post immortal arc base naruto. Don't waste my time, either address what i'm posting or concede them, enough with these silly attempts at attacking a strawman.

Naruto had all the help and Intel he needed, he was pinned down by pain, hinata helped, nine tails took over and nagato never had any intention to kill him(he revived the whole village).

So what? Naruto still beat pain by himself from BZ's point of view. Hinata didn't even land a hit on pain, that's zero help and can be counted as a non-factor, ninetails is part of naruto's power, pain's mindset is irrelevant to evaluating who won or lost, and intel isn't some kind of physical ally that does the fighting for naruto, it's a tool that naruto has that helps him fight.

If you want to argue about intel, pain had help from kakuzu, zetsu, obito and itachi since they provided him intel on Naruto before the fight due to their various encounters with naruto and his powers.

You can believe nine tails = sm naruto.

I sure will since that's exactly what the manga shows: Naruto beating 50% Kurama whenever he's in sennin mode.

You know when I use "plot"? When pain > kakashi > konohamaru and konohamaru > pain, now that is plot

Pain >>> pein arc Kakashi >>>>>> Naraka path > Konohomaru as we saw konohomaru was getting dominated by that path throughout their entire fight.

With SM Naruto vs kurama it's the exact opposite, whenever naruto is in sennin mode, he's always beating Kurama.

 

[TrollKing]

of course not since it's not start of part 2 base naruto, it's post immortal arc base naruto. Don't waste my time, either address what i'm posting or concede them, enough with these silly attempts at attacking a strawman.

"So what?" Naruto still beat pain by himself from BZ's point of view. Hinata didn't even land a hit on pain, that's zero help and can be counted as a non-factor, ninetails is part of naruto's power, pain's mindset is irrelevant to evaluating who won or lost, and intel isn't some kind of physical ally that does the fighting for naruto, it's a tool that naruto has that helps him fight.

If you want to argue about intel, pain had help from kakuzu, zetsu, obito and itachi since they provided him intel on Naruto before the fight due to their various encounters with naruto and his powers.


I sure will since that's exactly what the manga shows: Naruto beating 50% Kurama whenever he's in sennin mode.


Pain >>> pein arc Kakashi >>>>>> Naraka path > Konohomaru as we saw konohomaru was getting dominated by that path throughout their entire fight.

With SM Naruto vs kurama it's the exact opposite, whenever naruto is in sennin mode, he's always beating Kurama.

Tell me what training put him on kage level during time skip then(and I'm not talking about that one jutsu)

So what? You are excluding everyone involved in the battlefield. And remember we talking about "sage mode", not bm, so please don't include nine tails, and that's where sm fight ended. Though I believe bsm/bm/nine tails power can beat pain, but not sage mode

Bm > kcm > sm, bm stomp sm, I don't think I need to explain the obvious

Kakashi got solo by 1 pain, konohamaru destroyed 1 pain

 

[AnonymousShinobi]

MS put him nearly above Kage level

 

[Worm]

Sasuke became Kage level the moment he defeated someone like Deidara.​

 

[lanakui8]

Tell me what training put him on kage level during time skip then(and I'm not talking about that one jutsu)

I already did:
he learned FRS
fuuton rasengan
far greater chakra control
far greater use of bunshins
far more intelligent
probably greater chakra reserves

it wasn't just a single jutsu.

and even if it was a single jutsu, it doesn't matter as Kakashi explicitly stated on at least 4 occasions that after naruto's training, Naruto would be at kakashi's level. It doesn't matter if you think that doesn't make sense or you don't agree with that, it's kishi's explicit word on four different occasions.

So what? You are excluding everyone involved in the battlefield. And remember we talking about "sage mode", not bm, so please don't include nine tails, and that's where sm fight ended. Though I believe bsm/bm/nine tails power can beat pain, but not sage mode

Nope, Black zetsu never said 'sage naruto' he said 'naruto'. Who's 'everyone involved in the battlefield'? Pain had six bodies when he fought naruto, the only other person who fought him was hinata, and she was a nonfactor.

Bm > kcm > sm, bm stomp sm, I don't think I need to explain the obvious

Sure, but BM =/= 50% Kurama.

Kakashi got solo by 1 pain, konohamaru destroyed 1 pain

Unless you believe that naraka path = deva path, then don't waste my time.

And now, how about you make a case for hebi sasuke being = SM Naruto.

 

[TrollKing]

I already did:
he learned FRS
fuuton rasengan
far greater chakra control
far greater use of bunshins
far more intelligent
probably greater chakra reserves

it wasn't just a single jutsu.

and even if it was a single jutsu, it doesn't matter as Kakashi explicitly stated on at least 4 occasions that after naruto's training, Naruto would be at kakashi's level. It doesn't matter if you think that doesn't make sense or you don't agree with that, it's kishi's explicit word on four different occasions.


Nope, Black zetsu never said 'sage naruto' he said 'naruto'. Who's 'everyone involved in the battlefield'? Pain had six bodies when he fought naruto, the only other person who fought him was hinata, and she was a nonfactor.


Sure, but BM =/= 50% Kurama.


Unless you believe that naraka path = deva path, then don't waste my time.

And now, how about you make a case for hebi sasuke being = SM Naruto.

FRS is a jutsu that he dedicated with one training, that he improved from before. The rest are not training, and you simply said he became so great without showing he had any training

Then Bz saying naruto alone(sm + nine tails). Bz was basically saying bm/bsm/sm + nine tails > ms sasuke. And we are speaking of sm and hebi here. If you include nine tails in pain fight, you shouldn't bring this fight up since we are talking about sm and hebi

Bm is pretty much nine tail full power or 50% if you like to call it like that. Thats why its called biju mode and look just like a biju.

Oh yes, kakashi can destroy naraka path because naraka path is so garbage, even konohamaru can solo. And why jump on sm vs hebi already when you can't stop giving me bm/bsm/nine tails/nine tails + sm feats?

 

[lanakui8]

FRS is a jutsu that he dedicated with one training, that he improved from before. The rest are not training, and you simply said he became so great without showing he had any training

FRS was what he trained to achieve. The other things were side effects of that training. How does that mean he didn't accomplish those other things?

Then Bz saying naruto alone(sm + nine tails). Bz was basically saying bm/bsm/sm + nine tails > ms sasuke. And we are speaking of sm and hebi here. If you include nine tails in pain fight, you shouldn't bring this fight up since we are talking about sm and hebi

@ the bolded Naruto didn't have bm or bsm in the pain fight. He accessed KN4-8, and accessed KN0+SM. BM is tiers above anything we saw from naruto in that fight.

Sure, but then you'd have to also concede that Bz wasn't talking about just SM Naruto, he's talking about pain arc naruto who wasn't just in SM and kyuubi forms, but was also in base as well.

Bm is pretty much nine tail full power or 50% if you like to call it like that. Thats why its called biju mode and look just like a biju.

hell no, BM might have comparable chakra to 50% Kurama, but it's in no way shape or form = 50% Kurama. Go reread the many times in the manga where it states that a Jinchuriki in full control of his bijuu >>> bijuu. 50% Kurama was incapacitated by a FRS, BM Naruto

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The only thing they have in common is that BM and Kurama have comparable levels of chakra, and look like they're the same size.

Oh yes, kakashi can destroy naraka path because naraka path is so garbage, even konohamaru can solo.

So you agree that you concede then that your argument about kakashi losing to a path and konohomaru beating a path is practically worthless since deva =/= naraka.

And why jump on sm vs hebi already when you can't stop giving me bm/bsm/nine tails/nine tails + sm feats?

because the entire argument is whether hebi sasuke is on the same level as SM Naruto, so obviously we'd have to discuss that. Naruto never used BM or BSM against pain so that's straight up wrong right there.

So again, what suggests hebi sasuke = SM Naruto? Want to make a versus thread?

 

[Optimistic]

Well he could unlike Naruto at the start of Part 2 fight on par with a bloodlusted Akatsuki.

 

[paratise]

At early part 2. He was above jounin level even before Orochimatu absorbation.

Asuma, a jounin had blood over him after fighting like 5-10 fodders:

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Sasuke did not have a single drop of blood after fighting hundreds of fodders:

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Considering Sasuke had a lot more going on for him in ninjutsu + CM boost, he can be considered kage level at early part 2.

 

[TrollKing]

FRS was what he trained to achieve. The other things were side effects of that training. How does that mean he didn't accomplish those other things?


@ the bolded Naruto didn't have bm or bsm in the pain fight. He accessed KN4-8, and accessed KN0+SM. BM is tiers above anything we saw from naruto in that fight.

Sure, but then you'd have to also concede that Bz wasn't talking about just SM Naruto, he's talking about pain arc naruto who wasn't just in SM and kyuubi forms, but was also in base as well.


hell no, BM might have comparable chakra to 50% Kurama, but it's in no way shape or form = 50% Kurama. Go reread the many times in the manga where it states that a Jinchuriki in full control of his bijuu >>> bijuu. 50% Kurama was incapacitated by a FRS, BM Naruto

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The only thing they have in common is that BM and Kurama have comparable levels of chakra, and look like they're the same size.


So you agree that you concede then that your argument about kakashi losing to a path and konohomaru beating a path is practically worthless since deva =/= naraka.


because the entire argument is whether hebi sasuke is on the same level as SM Naruto, so obviously we'd have to discuss that. Naruto never used BM or BSM against pain so that's straight up wrong right there.

So again, what suggests hebi sasuke = SM Naruto? Want to make a versus thread?

Manga stated that training is for that FRS, everything else is not proven nor it ever mentioned as you suggested

Spoiler

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I've been referring to this, its nine tails mode or bm. Naruto couldn't get out alive without this. Naruto sage mode alone can't defeat pains(all pains), he needs nine tails power. And you seem to be including this to sage mode. You told me to read what Bz said about "pain arc sm naruto" vs sasuke

Nine tails obviously >>>>> sm, not the other way around

Sm and hebi, and I'm defining "sm"still without a biju

 

[King Of Pop]

hebi sasuke easily. able to fight and defeat an akatsuki alone and a strong one at that

 

[Rizengan01]

I'd say MS Sasuke, because he defeated Danzo who was a Kage. The reason I wouldn't say Hebi Sasuke was Kage level is because he beat a sick Itachi who intentionally lost and almost was killed be Deidera(Deidera beat Gaara only because Gaara was also focusing on protecting his village which kept him from going all out and ended up distracting him). Plus MS Sasuke barely makes the cut to Kage level because he was demolished by the other Kages at the Kage summit.

Deidara had Tobi's assistance against Sasuke. And Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Deidara the entire time.

that plot made him beat a high kage level opponent? ya not impressed by that. he got thrashed by all 5 kage so he is not kage level until ems.

Any 1 of the Kages would've been trashed against the other 4. Not to mention Sasuke improved even after that fight, with his MS alone.

As far as being kage level, base naruto was explicitly stated to have been at least on the same level as kakashi after he went through his rasenshuriken training. So unless kakashi isn't kage level, base naruto was.

Depending on translation, it wasn't "explicitly" stated. In the official English translation, Kakashi's questions if Naruto has surpassed him - he doesn't say that Naruto has.

If you want to compare pain arc SM Naruto to sasuke,

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Zetsu (who hadn't even witnessed Sasuke's powers) said Naruto was "probably" stronger. All Zetsu had to go off of was what he saw from "Hebi" Sasuke, minus the Oro and CS powers.

Also, SM Naruto was beating Kurama while Sasuke was only on the level of KN4 Naruto based on orochimaru's statements.

1. Naruto could also fly in his mind.

2. Sasuke handled Kyubi with eye contact alone

3. Oro didn't say Sasuke was equal to 4TK. He just said 3TK (IIRC) was weaker than Sasuke.

Naruto did beat pain from what black zetsu saw, who else was doing the fighting?

You shouldn't just keep in mind what BZ saw of Naruto. You should keep that in mind for what he saw of Sasuke as well.

 

[Bantos]

When he gained the MS.

 

[King Of Pop]

EMS sasuke was kage level. Before he was not. Kages played with him and when he went 1 vs 1 with danzo, he only won becoz of karin and obito.. Danzo was saving KA for obito, and was contantly worried about obito and karin. He was even saving chakra hence wasn't at 100%... Obito saved him from getting sealed at the end too...
Against deidara he simply won with elemental advantage... By no means he was on deidara's level back then...

what a ridiculous post. he faced ay head on and stalemated him despite just adapting to his ms tech using just a mere ribcage. against mei and oonoki he was feeling the strain of soosano hence he was weaknened, he didnt have a full on fight with them. karin and obito did jack, he took on danzo himself and layed him to waist and this is a guy who had a forbidden jutsu in his arsenal. do you think sasuke is an idiot to just stand there? he obv saw something was up, he would have moved away non the less aftarall he already battled an opponent who tried to take him away with a suicide tech and he survived it, so stuffs like that is nothing new.
your deidara point is retarded, sasuke beat him not just because of the elemntal advantage but also because he was smarter and more skillful, sasuke outclassed him the entire fight all the while trying to get info from him on itachi. sasuke was easily kage level at his hebi stage, chidori variants plus a destructive jutsu like kirin, not to mention he can smoke tsunade in just his hebi form and she is kage level.

 

[-Spoiler-]

MS Sasuke definitely, Hebi Sasuke was strong and all but i felt he struggled too much in his battles, and if he was the one to attack bee or the summit he would have gotten curbstomped.

 

[sv121]

hebi sasuke

 

[Lightning Release]

Yall think Hebi Sasuke could be Tsunade, Minato, The mizukage? Gtfo, EMS Sasuke is "kage level."