[Discussion] What is oda trying to do with sanji

[Shanks]

First up not a rant thread this has been big debate regarding sanjis character and overall his traits since post time skip. I mean all barriers crossed with all last chapter.

The whole of wci arc sanjis prime association was to break his bond away from vinsmokes who mistreated him as failure product by his own father. Sanji s feeling and he always looked upto zeff as a role model as alternative that he could get stronger without use of technology or lineage power. The whole of wci was clash of ideals for sanji to leave his past life of germa behind for good.


So why is oda making sanji use the powerup given by niji. The whole of wci arc storyline looks silly seriously and this is why i am seriously looking at sanjis lack growth since post time skip.

This is not bash thread but critical lack of character growth from storypoint. Hope to see you guys give opinion.

 

[Skull Knight]

We all know he will use that vinsmoke tech at some point of time. Didn't thought he will go for it so early

 

[Shanks]

We all know he will use that vinsmoke tech at some point of time. Didn't thought he will go for it so early

But sanji disassociating with germa was one of the prime storyline in wci. That means deep down he does not resent them at all.

 

[Skull Knight]

But sanji disassociating with germa was one of the prime storyline in wci. That means deep down he does not resent them at all.

I think at the end of Cake Island he proved that he wasn't inferior. If he embrace his Vinsmoke legacy then i dont have any problem as those tech will make him strong. Post TS his performance is really bad and its right time for him to gain some power to put him back in Monster Trio.

 

[Shanks]

I think at the end of Cake Island he proved that he wasn't inferior. If he embrace his Vinsmoke legacy then i dont have any problem as those tech will make him strong. Post TS his performance is really bad and its right time for him to gain some power to put him back in Monster Trio.

I am not talking of the inferority complex this is more related to character progression. He said he wants to come up on his own without germa tech , whatever judge had opinion of sanji were right.

Niji gave him the tech because he was not competent to fight top tiers yet. So i am not sure how oda made sanji suddenly change his heart and embrace the raid suit gift given by niji. Just my thoughts.

 

[Skull Knight]

I am not talking of the inferority complex this is more related to character progression. He said he wants to come up on his own without germa tech , whatever judge had opinion of sanji were right.

Niji gave him the tech because he was not competent to fight top tiers yet. So i am not sure how oda made sanji suddenly change his heart and embrace the raid suit gift given by niji. Just my thoughts.

Its probably that he has embraced the fact that currently he's not that strong and he need the tech against these monsters. And he probably knows that the raid suit is designed how he fights.

 

[Sakazuki]

Sanji is gonna get captured. That's the only reason Oda had law say to Sanji what he said about Sanji keeping quiet if he gets caught

If he wasn't gonna get caught that scenario would've never came about. He's about to go ham on one page. Get caught by others and then Queens gonna work on the raid suit and Sanji is gonna get strong with Luffy and kidd

 

[Caliburn]

I would say the exact opposite. If the point of the WCI-arc was to make Sanji break his bond with his family, there was no point to begin with as that's what he had been doing his entire life. In fact that was the 'agreement' he made with his father when left: never make it known in any kind of way he's connected to the Vinsmokes. So if he still was doing that, that would mean he has shown zero growth.

Granted it's weird how nonchalantly he took out his raid suit this chapter, while the last time we saw it he wanted to throw it away, but that's exactly what shows growth.

As I see it the point was for Sanji to accept his past. He is a Vinsmoke, whether he likes it or not. When he fled the first time, it was pretty much Judge who had the final word and when he returned it was again Judge who made him come back as he realized he had a use for even a 'failure' like him. Instead of blindly denying his Vinsmoke-heritage, what he has been doing for years, he can accept it now but on his own terms. If Sanji would stubbornly refuse to don the raid suit, something that could aid them on their journey, now that would indicate lack of growth.

I also sincerely doubt Niji gave Sanji that suit because he thought Sanji couldn't handle high-tier opponents. Those three Vinsmoke-brothers were never portrayed to be complex characters, so his reasoning was most likely something like this: suits = make you stronger, Sanji refusing to use them = stupid. Why would you deny yourself strength? On top of that he probably knew it would tick him off.

The reality that the entire world now knows him as Sanji Vinsmoke, he pretty much has no choice than accepting it.

 

[Apriori]

I apologize if I am assuming you are worried about Sanji's trajectory in the manga, but I completely share your feelings. Although not identical in reason, I feel as if Oda dropped the ball with the treatment of Sanji. This is retrospect to the Time-Skip, which I can go in-depth if need be, but Sanji was supposed to experience this growth to prepare him for the new world.

Considering that the Straw Hat Pirates steam rolled Fishman Island and Punk Hazard, and he was snuffed out the story line in Dressrora, Sanji's growth was never truly shown. At least the unleashed potential thus far (same for many Crew Members) so it was disappointing that Sanji was treated rather "fodder" against the Big Mom Pirates. Do not mistake me for wishing he actually triumph over them (although a nice drawn out fight between Sanji and Oven or Daifuku would have be an opportunity).

I am saying that his Vinsmoke Plotline in all honestly is pointless. The Year of Sanji turned out to be the Year of the Yonkou Saga. There is no growth whatsoever with Sanji during that arc. Dissect this perspective. What did we learn about Sanji that actually changed who Sanji was as a character? Absolutely nothing considering he holds the same values and morals instilled by Zeff. He is not a different character after that Story Arc.

What growth of power, skill, or determination did Sanji experience? Whole Cake Island featured Sanji being manipulated and twisted to the point that the "Powerhouse" we have come to known about Sanji was not a factor. This is not me saying he isn't a powerhouse for the crew anymore, simply that he was not able to showcase what makes him such. We learned that Sanji can cook, faster than normal? What does that do to serve the manga or the character honestly?

We know he is an amazing chef. Cooking "faster than normal" is not even a substantial piece of information have. Did his resolves change or strengthen? Nothing indicates he feels any stronger for his crew or family more than what we already knew. Sanji has tried to give his life for Luffy and Zeff before, so willing to do it now is nothing new. The only thing that possibly changed was Sanji's hate for his family. It went from hate to extreme dislike, which means nothing. All in all, Sanji dislikes his family.

So what are the great values coming from Whole Cake Island? We as fans were given a sad backstory for Sanji, which all Straw Hats have, so that allowed us to like the character more. Me? Sanji was already my favorite, but I do appreciate Oda for adding that value. The last value? (Sorry if this is long winded, but I have arrived.) That damn Raid Suit. The peak potential I was referring to earlier? Its sad to think of it like this, but Sanji's peak potential was either going to be boring (I can kick harder and move faster) OR ridiculous (somehow just igniting with flames).

Sanji will definitely get his drawn out fight where we truly learn about his physical prowess, but the character will be flat. Getting stronger and faster is boring, getting stronger and faster on top of new abilities keeps the character fresh. As for my worries? The Raid Suits are colorful ass costumes that just add protection as far as Whole Cake Island revealed. Soooooo. Sanji is stronger, faster, and now more tanky..........

R.I.P Sanji is what it seems like T-T

 

[Michelle]

My only impression was that the suit could change his desguise to not be spotted as SH Sanji. For now he doesn't need an extra power.
Of course that accepting to use it it's a growth for him.
And when he will realise how much power up the suit reppresents, then he will use it for it's real purpose, when that powet up will become useful.

 

[SaitamaSanji]

I apologize if I am assuming you are worried about Sanji's trajectory in the manga, but I completely share your feelings. Although not identical in reason, I feel as if Oda dropped the ball with the treatment of Sanji. This is retrospect to the Time-Skip, which I can go in-depth if need be, but Sanji was supposed to experience this growth to prepare him for the new world.

Considering that the Straw Hat Pirates steam rolled Fishman Island and Punk Hazard, and he was snuffed out the story line in Dressrora, Sanji's growth was never truly shown. At least the unleashed potential thus far (same for many Crew Members) so it was disappointing that Sanji was treated rather "fodder" against the Big Mom Pirates. Do not mistake me for wishing he actually triumph over them (although a nice drawn out fight between Sanji and Oven or Daifuku would have be an opportunity).

I am saying that his Vinsmoke Plotline in all honestly is pointless. The Year of Sanji turned out to be the Year of the Yonkou Saga. There is no growth whatsoever with Sanji during that arc. Dissect this perspective. What did we learn about Sanji that actually changed who Sanji was as a character? Absolutely nothing considering he holds the same values and morals instilled by Zeff. He is not a different character after that Story Arc.

What growth of power, skill, or determination did Sanji experience? Whole Cake Island featured Sanji being manipulated and twisted to the point that the "Powerhouse" we have come to known about Sanji was not a factor. This is not me saying he isn't a powerhouse for the crew anymore, simply that he was not able to showcase what makes him such. We learned that Sanji can cook, faster than normal? What does that do to serve the manga or the character honestly?

We know he is an amazing chef. Cooking "faster than normal" is not even a substantial piece of information have. Did his resolves change or strengthen? Nothing indicates he feels any stronger for his crew or family more than what we already knew. Sanji has tried to give his life for Luffy and Zeff before, so willing to do it now is nothing new. The only thing that possibly changed was Sanji's hate for his family. It went from hate to extreme dislike, which means nothing. All in all, Sanji dislikes his family.

So what are the great values coming from Whole Cake Island? We as fans were given a sad backstory for Sanji, which all Straw Hats have, so that allowed us to like the character more. Me? Sanji was already my favorite, but I do appreciate Oda for adding that value. The last value? (Sorry if this is long winded, but I have arrived.) That damn Raid Suit. The peak potential I was referring to earlier? Its sad to think of it like this, but Sanji's peak potential was either going to be boring (I can kick harder and move faster) OR ridiculous (somehow just igniting with flames).

Sanji will definitely get his drawn out fight where we truly learn about his physical prowess, but the character will be flat. Getting stronger and faster is boring, getting stronger and faster on top of new abilities keeps the character fresh. As for my worries? The Raid Suits are colorful ass costumes that just add protection as far as Whole Cake Island revealed. Soooooo. Sanji is stronger, faster, and now more tanky..........

R.I.P Sanji is what it seems like T-T

agreed 100%.when it comes to monster trio they all went through training for 2 years.its not like sanji went for cooking classes for two years.he was trained with ivankou one of the strong members of revolutionary and those okamas.even though its not enough zoro at least had a decent fight with pica.bt with sanji he first got injured vs vergo and we only saw him learning moon walk as a new technique
and then he was left over from dressrosa arc.and then came WCI arc where he only did was cook faster like u said.at least he should hv fought oven bt no oda made a blind eye on sanji's strength yet again.and there was no point of WCI arc since it didnt make sanji's character grow too.he is still the same person.vinsmokes considered him weak on his own bt guess wt now sanji is proving that all over again.im ok with him getting a raid suit.bt he should hv atleast used that at a desperate moment not like how easily he pulled it out at last chapter.and again we hv this question sanji trained for 2 years for wt? wt new techniques he learned? he only got a bit faster and stronger bt nothing special on him.if sanji from now depends on the suit to fight harder opponents then it sure gives us the idea his personal training for 2 years was utter rubbish.right now i really dnt like how his and zoro's growth of strength is lead to.only luffy's part is done by oda well enough.he first fought flamingo and then cracker and katakuri at last giving him enough experience to get stronger bt with both zoro and sanji he made a blind eye on em.specially on sanji.zoro had a fight with pica bt it wasnt a fight where he could progress even though it showed zoro has become quite stronger after time skip.bt with sanji he not only didnt even get a fight to show his growth bt also a fight grow himself up.if sanji and zoro now fight king and queen at the end of wano arc without at least one fight before that to make each of them grow their strength themselves then it will definitely look bad upon the story and specially on luffy too.luffy now gonna fight a yonkou bt we saw him progress through time and fights before.bt if zoro or sanji suddenly beat top commanders like that without any progression before it will look bad upon luffy too.i hope oda doesnt make such mistakes though.he better give sanji and zoro a fight to grow before them facing king and queen or better if they never fought king and queen at the end if he doesnt plan on give em a fight to progress

 

[Love Cook]

It's the opposite of what you're claiming.

Sanji despised his family going into the arc. Sanji was portrayed as the one that cares but was the weakling in the eyes of his brothers and father. In the end even while Sanji still hated their guts his true nature showed when he wanted to go back to save his family while he could escape the island after reuniting with Luffy. At that moment Sanji gained the respect of his family. In return the Vinsmokes saved him at the wedding and Luffy at the village with the mirror after the Dogtooth fight, gaining a little respect from Sanji back.

Sanji isn't likely to invite them over for x-mas dinner, but at least they're on speaking terms. He also has Vinsmoke on his wanted poster so there is no reason to pretend anymore that he isn't a prince from the Germa Kingdom. Also Sanji never had a problem with tech, he didn't like the cloning business but that is something else than saying he only wanted to become stronger without tech.

So part of his growth is that he isn't looking at his family all black and white anymore.

 

[jhamz]

His plan to use the raid suit is mainly for the reason of hiding his identity. Don't complicate things too much.
Knowing sanji, he better off set asside the family issue if it means protecting his nakama who may become at risk
They're under time pressure aren't they? Page One Needs to be defeated before X Drake and Hawkins arrive so Sanji's obejectives are:
- Hide his identity 60%
- Finish the match as quick as possible with zero to momimal damage. 40%
Sanji's forte is Observation Haki. I think that kick was to gauge his opponent which probably made him to use the raid suit.

 

[Apriori]

I believe that to be false. Sanji was already void of a black and white view due to his Sister and Mother. Sanji is not simple mind nor possessed simple minded views for his brothers and father. He understood and knows for them to be emotionless people that treated him cruel. He did not possessed love for them by the time of his departure, although this was never stated, just inferred due to his willingness to escape the family. Sanji, as far as the audience knows, does not like his family still nor wants to be associated with them. Even if his poster indicates that, this does not mean he needs to be or is accepting of his linage.

Nothing has indicated that Sanji and the Vinsmokes are on speaking terms. Speaking terms, in the context you are using, means to be cajole which was never shown between them. If you mean speaking terms as in, they talk to each other, then they always been on speaking terms. Most of their interactions (speaking terms) was displeasurable and shock. The shock element is when both parties interfered to save one another, however Sanji's kind heart led him to save the others. Not a desire or need to like them, be liked by them, or have respect for them. Vinsmokes save Sanji out of debt, not love or care.

It is fair for you to believe that respect was gained from both sides, but I think that is looking at their entire interactions in a black and white view. Kind of like a dreamy shonen-quese point of view. I believe Oda presented the dynamics of their relationship without any hidden agenda aside from the Vinsmokes might assist the Straw Hats in some grand war.