War Arc Kakashi + Itachi vs. Sannin

[LuckyMan]

Nope. Pay attention;

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From the time Sasuke had already fired his Susano'o arrows, Kakashi was able to go from 3-T to Mangenkyou and warp them. AFTER they had been fired. Orochimaru isn't doing jack with Edo Tensei or Rashomon before this happens and he gets sniped.

The scans you provided don't support your argument because BM Naruto and Might Gai are both significantly faster than Orochimaru. Unless you have some speed feats for Orochimaru putting him near Gai and BM Naruto's level - good luck.

Kamui Snipe, GG. Sorry, it's just the cold, hard truth.

Spoiler

Wrong. Kakashi warped them so fast because he didn't have to do any work.
- He didn't need to focus on them from 50m out.
- He didn't need to focus on actually warping them.
- He only opened the warp in front of him and the arrows flew right in.
- The speed and straightforward direction the arrows came in pushed them into the warp.

Wrong. Narutos speed has ZERO relevance.
- The time it takes Narutos BD to form isn't equal to his actual speed.
*Example: BD takes longer to form than Naruto making a clone. Naruto couldn't use a clone before Ay blitzed him, but Naruto is faster than Ay. You're taking Narutos full movement speed and attributing it to the speed at which his BD forms, which is illogical.
- Naruto and Gais own speed is irrelevant. The speed at which BD forms is.
- Gai was able to go through his bag and swing out his nunchucks by the time Naruto formed his BD and Gai wasn't in a rush to pull them out. But let's say he was anyway. Let's say he moved his hands as fast as he possibly could to pull them out.

Now all that matters is to show Orochimaru can clap his hands in the time Gai goes in his bag and pulls out his nunchucks. The fact that you need this to be proven to you in baby steps, that you're forgetting Orochimaru is also superhuman, and believing he is so ridiculously slower than Gai that he can't do this is ridiculous and hysterical in itself but no worries. I got a little time.

Orochimaru hand speed feats are:

Punching V2 Naruto before he could react. Gai did this in 6th Gate.
Summoning TR after a BD was already fired at him.
Throwing Snakes out to counter V2 Narutos attacks.
Catching the God Tree Branches at point blank range. Naruto and Bee couldn't escape them because they were so fast. Tobirama and Minato needed Hirashin to save fodders from it because it was so fast.

So yes, Orochimaru can clap his hands before Kakashi uses Kamui on him lol and I didn't even bring up my Killer Bee point yet lol, which really cements it.

 

[NarutoX28]

No it's not. Since summoning jutsu is universally the same regardless of who or what summon. (bite finger, clap hands, slap floor/scroll etc) the contract is "summon specific" as in naruto despite knowing how to perform summoning jutsu can ONLY summon frogs. He can't summon snakes cus he doesnt have a contract with them. Him writing his name in the scroll is the contract, oro killing someone to summon someone else is the contract .

This isn't what I meant, what I meant was that the conveyance of the souls was analogous to every other jutsu because every user has to build a foundation (essentially learn the jutsu) before utilizing a jutsu. As Kabuto elaborated before, Edo Tensei's Kuchiyose is analogous to Kuchiyose in the sense that it invokes S/T Ninjutsu to transport objects from one plane to the next. Edo Tensei requires you to have the knowledge and ability to perform that while Kuchiyose requires you to have a summoning contract and the ability (as in fundamentals) in order to perform it.

Kabuto established the similarity here:

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When Kabuto discloses more substantial information, he mentions that in order to accomplish such a feat, he needs to undergo specific preparations which implies that the specifics such as scavenging for a body and DNA wasn't included when made a comparison between the two. Thus, your idea behind the bodies acting as the contract is wrong. The only thing remotely mentioned is

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for the soul and the user has to perform arduous preparations which is congruous with the nature of the technique being a Kinjutsu.

Now reference Chapter 520 and inform me of how a contract is intrinsic to Edo Tensei because from what is illustrated, the contract is only needed to transport the coffins via Kuchiyose which occurs after the completion of the jutsu. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how you derived such a conclusion from Kabuto given that this is not what Kabuto's lecture entailed. Provide me a scan and maybe I'll be convinced.

You only have to do it once. Whereas prep would mean you would have to do it BEFORE EVERY BATTLE. Did kabuto have to kill 2 people to summon madara twice?

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No.

There is no similarity, now you're grasping at straws. Kabuto already completed the procedure for Edo Tensei, so why would he repeat it? The coffins are meant for the Edo Tensei to be accessible from any location and this was illustrated in Part 1. Orochimaru retrieved the vessels necessary for Edo Tensei and waited until after he seized Hiruzen to summon them. It's only a means to make Edo Tensei more practical after external preparations are met because it coffins weren't available, he'd either abstain from using Edo Tensei or be forced to combine these constituents in front of his opponent. Given that it was excluded from Kabuto's lecture (Chapter 520), we can just simply infer that it isn't representative of the instigation of Edo Tensei at all.

On the contrary, even when Orochimaru had summoned all of the Edo Kages previously, Suigetsu

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with

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. And of course, Orochimaru then, fortunately had their DNA and mentioned that he had acquired them previously. All of these events would've been superfluous if preparations weren't a necessity even for recurring Edo Tensei.

I will be honest, you can make a case and argue that he always possesses the Kage's DNA given that this is somewhat implicit, but vessels aren't readily available for him, so he can't use it unless the OP specifies that all preparations are met.

 

[NarutoX28]

Damn Narutox28, your argument is lame. Bengay you should just tell him:

Edo tensei is a jutsu that needs prep JUST ONE TIME, and after you did it that time, IT BECOMES PERMANENT in your arsenal. If Orochimaru had to do the prep everytime he uses the jutsu then you'd have a point. I'm lazy to quote you so i hope you read it.

I will add that he hasn't given a proper example that suggests that recurring Edo Tensei aren't victims of external preparations. It's an overly complicated discussion because he's relating summoning contracts to the constituents of Edo Tensei (body and DNA) and concluding that these constituents act as contracts for Edo Tensei which is dumbfounding considering that isn't anywhere presented in the manga.

 

[blazekev90]

Now in order to use Edo in VS threads, the ritual needs to be performed? Lol funny, the same people fail to use that argument when making claims in favor of Tobirama

 

[NarutoX28]

Now in order to use Edo in VS threads, the ritual needs to be performed? Lol funny, the same people fail to use that argument when claims making in favor of Tobirama

Then that's wrong unless Tobirama is explicitly allowed to use Edo Tensei in the OP's stipulations.

 

[blazekev90]

Then that's wrong unless Tobirama is explicitly allowed to use Edo Tensei in the OP's stipulations.

Whether or not it's stated directly or indirectly, Edo is normally restricted to prevent any confusion. In this case, no restrictions were placed. Meaning each character can utilize any and everything in his/her arsenal. Trying to argue against Orochimaru having access to Kage is like arguing against the manga and never have Ive witness anyone make claims of him needing vessels in a VS thread.

You for one have argued Tobirama using Edo against Kisame. Yes, OP granted him access to Edo, however according to your logic in this thread, he should still have to perform necessary steps during the match in order to use re-animation. Honestly, that's completely ridiculous.

If conditions aren't clarified and you are uncertain about restrictions, that's when you make a statement regarding both possible scenarios.

 

[NarutoX28]

Whether or not it's stated directly or indirectly, Edo is normally restricted to prevent any confusion. In this case, no restrictions were placed. Meaning each character can utilize any and everything in his/her arsenal. Trying to argue against Orochimaru having access to Kage is like arguing against the manga and never have Ive witness anyone make claims of him needing vessels in a VS thread.

You for one have argued Tobirama using Edo against Kisame. Yes, OP granted him access to Edo, however according to your logic in this thread, he should still have to perform necessary steps during the match in order to use re-animation. Honestly, that's completely ridiculous.

If conditions aren't clarified and you are uncertain about restrictions, that's when you make a statement regarding both possible scenarios.

When the OP enables Tobirama to use Edo Tensei, then it's intended that Tobirama can use Edo Tensei with leisure against his opponent or else mentioning it would go in vain in the scenario you presented. In this thread, it's not stated, so we're assuming that the Sannin battle under their normal capabilities. This is explicitly why people either specify if Jiraiya begins in Sage Mode or not because failing to do means Jiraiya has to undergo extensive preparations and I fail to see why this wouldn't apply to Orochimaru.

No restrictions simply indicates that Orochimaru is accountable for his own actions, so he can instigate Edo Tensei on his own free will, but has to be aware of the consequences whilst doing so. So really, how is this any different than Pain Arc Naruto or Jiraiya entering battle under normal capabilities where Sage Mode requires ample time in order to use it?

 

[blazekev90]

When the OP enables Tobirama to use Edo Tensei, then it's intended that Tobirama can use Edo Tensei with leisure against his opponent or else mentioning it would go in vain in the scenario you presented. In this thread, it's not stated, so we're assuming that the Sannin battle under their normal capabilities. This is explicitly why people either specify if Jiraiya begins in Sage Mode or not because failing to do means Jiraiya has to undergo extensive preparations and I fail to see why this wouldn't apply to Orochimaru.

No restrictions simply indicates that Orochimaru is accountable for his own actions, so he can instigate Edo Tensei on his own free will, but has to be aware of the consequences whilst doing so. So really, how is this any different than Pain Arc Naruto or Jiraiya entering battle under normal capabilities where Sage Mode requires ample time in order to use it?

You can't compare the two instances. Jman entering SM is something he's capable of performing per match-up. There's nothing hindering him from achieving this, unless him opponent is clearly superior to his standard fighting style.

Orochimaru having to perform a ritual in midst of a match isimpossible. For one, he'd require vessels/sacrifices for each Kage. How and when is this suppose to take place? What vessels? Does this need to be part of the conditions? Do we specify which Kage he'd chose to summon? This logic of yours makes things complicated. It's necessary for a storyline, not a place for fun and competitiveness.

The reason why can specify whether or not Jman/Naruto starts in SM is because we've witness this transition in battle. We know what logically makes sense for opponent. Orochimaru nor Kabuto have ever prepped re-animation during a battle because it's complete nonsense.

With that being said, you are REACHING and looking to start an argument just because.

 

[NarutoX28]

You can't compare the two instances. Jman entering SM is something he's capable of performing per match-up. There's nothing hindering him from achieving this, unless him opponent is clearly superior to his standard fighting style.

Orochimaru having to perform a ritual in midst of a match isimpossible. For one, he'd require vessels/sacrifices for each Kage. How and when is this suppose to take place? What vessels? Does this need to be part of the conditions? Do we specify which Kage he'd chose to summon? This logic of yours makes things complicated. It's necessary for a storyline, not a place for fun and competitiveness.

The reason why can specify whether or not Jman/Naruto starts in SM is because we've witness this transition in battle. We know what logically makes sense for opponent. Orochimaru nor Kabuto have ever prepped re-animation during a battle because it's complete nonsense.

All your argument pivots on is that Edo Tensei's preparation has not been explicitly shown, but this does not discredit that there are arduous preparations to be made for it and should be considered when evaluating each shinobi as we do with every shinobi's abilities. Arguments such as, "SM Jiraiya can enter Sage Mode per match-up," isn't a substantial argument, it only furthers the notion that Edo Tensei may or may not occur depending on the match-up.

With that being said, you are REACHING and looking to start an argument just because.

Don't go there. It's very explicit why you're resorting to a false pretense such as this.

 

[blazekev90]

All your argument pivots on is that Edo Tensei's preparation has not been explicitly shown, but this does not discredit that there are arduous preparations to be made for it and should be considered when evaluating each shinobi as we do with every shinobi's abilities. Arguments such as, "SM Jiraiya can enter Sage Mode per match-up," isn't a substantial argument, it only furthers the notion that Edo Tensei may or may not occur depending on the match-up



Don't go there. It's very explicit why you're resorting to a false pretense such as this.

*Sigh*

You'll try too hard nowadays. Ok bud.

 

[NarutoX28]

*Sigh*

You'll try too hard nowadays. Ok bud.

You can include Edo Tensei in your arguments if you want, I'm not able to coerce you nor will I coerce you into refraining from doing so.

Arguments are here for everyone to read, so of course I will weigh in my input and let others decide if they want Edo Tensei to be included or not.

 

[blazekev90]

You can include Edo Tensei in your arguments if you want, I'm not able to coerce you nor will I coerce you into refraining from doing so.

Arguments are here for everyone to read, so of course I will weigh in my input and let others decide if they want Edo Tensei to be included or not.

I said that post #66.

However, you arguing against those who are including Edo. But I've reached my quote limit. I have nothing further to discuss.

 

[NarutoX28]

I said that post #66.

However, you arguing against those who are including Edo. But I've reached my quote limit. I have nothing further to discuss.

I bid you farewell.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

This isn't what I meant, what I meant was that the conveyance of the souls was analogous to every other jutsu because every user has to build a foundation (essentially learn the jutsu) before utilizing a jutsu. As Kabuto elaborated before, Edo Tensei's Kuchiyose is analogous to Kuchiyose in the sense that it invokes S/T Ninjutsu to transport objects from one plane to the next. Edo Tensei requires you to have the knowledge and ability to perform that while Kuchiyose requires you to have a summoning contract and the ability (as in fundamentals) in order to perform it.

Kabuto established the similarity here:

You must be registered for see links

When Kabuto discloses more substantial information, he mentions that in order to accomplish such a feat, he needs to undergo specific preparations which implies that the specifics such as scavenging for a body and DNA wasn't included when made a comparison between the two. Thus, your idea behind the bodies acting as the contract is wrong. The only thing remotely mentioned is

You must be registered for see links

for the soul and the user has to perform arduous preparations which is congruous with the nature of the technique being a Kinjutsu.

Now reference Chapter 520 and inform me of how a contract is intrinsic to Edo Tensei because from what is illustrated, the contract is only needed to transport the coffins via Kuchiyose which occurs after the completion of the jutsu. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how you derived such a conclusion from Kabuto given that this is not what Kabuto's lecture entailed. Provide me a scan and maybe I'll be convinced.



There is no similarity, now you're grasping at straws. Kabuto already completed the procedure for Edo Tensei, so why would he repeat it? The coffins are meant for the Edo Tensei to be accessible from any location and this was illustrated in Part 1. Orochimaru retrieved the vessels necessary for Edo Tensei and waited until after he seized Hiruzen to summon them. It's only a means to make Edo Tensei more practical after external preparations are met because it coffins weren't available, he'd either abstain from using Edo Tensei or be forced to combine these constituents in front of his opponent. Given that it was excluded from Kabuto's lecture (Chapter 520), we can just simply infer that it isn't representative of the instigation of Edo Tensei at all.

On the contrary, even when Orochimaru had summoned all of the Edo Kages previously, Suigetsu

You must be registered for see links

with

You must be registered for see links

. And of course, Orochimaru then, fortunately had their DNA and mentioned that he had acquired them previously. All of these events would've been superfluous if preparations weren't a necessity even for recurring Edo Tensei.

I will be honest, you can make a case and argue that he always possesses the Kage's DNA given that this is somewhat implicit, but vessels aren't readily available for him, so he can't use it unless the OP specifies that all preparations are met.

If it worked the way you said it works then oro wouldn't even attempt to summon the fourth here:

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Since it would have failed waay back when he did the 'ritual contract'.


But it doesn't. Which your scan even references, not the ritual, but the summoning itself:

Spoiler

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Much like how madara failed:

Spoiler

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[NarutoX28]

If it worked the way you said it works then oro wouldn't even attempt to summon the fourth here:

Spoiler

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Since it would have failed waay back when he did the 'ritual contract'.


But it doesn't. Which your scan even references, not the ritual, but the summoning itself:

Spoiler

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Much like how madara failed:

Spoiler

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I don't get your point honestly and I'm not sure how this discredits Edo Tensei as requiring external preparations.

 

[EZQ]

I don't get your point honestly and I'm not sure how this discredits Edo Tensei as requiring external preparations.

It requires them just once in your life and then it's done. With your logic, Sasuke needs prep to use chidori because he had to train 3 months to be able to do it.

 

[NarutoX28]

It requires them just once in your life and then it's done. With your logic, Sasuke needs prep to use chidori because he had to train 3 months to be able to do it.

No, with my logic, Edo Tensei is the equivalent of Konan's supreme technique (lazy to search name, but you get the point).

I'll just quote myself here which explains why one has to recollect the vessel and DNA:

On the contrary, even when Orochimaru had summoned all of the Edo Kages previously,

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with

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. And of course, Orochimaru then, fortunately had their DNA and mentioned that he had acquired them previously. All of these events would've been superfluous if preparations weren't a necessity even for recurring Edo Tensei.

 

[Nattana]

No, with my logic, Edo Tensei is the equivalent of Konan's supreme technique (lazy to search name, but you get the point).

I'll just quote myself here which explains why one has to recollect the vessel and DNA:

You don't understand something. Hokage souls were sealed during Oro's attack on Konoha and at the same time Orochimaru lost his arms. Therefore, he couldn't prepare his Edo until he got his arms back.

But saying Edo Tensei is prep is like saying Minato's kunai are prep, or that Sasori's puppets are prep, etc. Yes, they are prep, but they are something these ninja always carry with themselves. Your analogy to Konan's jutsu is completely useless, because she needs a specific location and specific conditions to be met, while ET is like any other ninja tool - you always carry it with yourself.

 

[LuckyMan]

You don't understand something. Hokage souls were sealed during Oro's attack on Konoha and at the same time Orochimaru lost his arms. Therefore, he couldn't prepare his Edo until he got his arms back.

But saying Edo Tensei is prep is like saying Minato's kunai are prep, or that Sasori's puppets are prep, etc. Yes, they are prep, but they are something these ninja always carry with themselves. Your analogy to Konan's jutsu is completely useless, because she needs a specific location and specific conditions to be met, while ET is like any other ninja tool - you always carry it with yourself.

Why are you still arguing with him? Several people besides yourself now have proven him wrong. He knows he's wrong. He just won't admit it and is arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. It's pretty clear.

 

[NarutoX28]

You don't understand something. Hokage souls were sealed during Oro's attack on Konoha and at the same time Orochimaru lost his arms. Therefore, he couldn't prepare his Edo until he got his arms back.

But saying Edo Tensei is prep is like saying Minato's kunai are prep, or that Sasori's puppets are prep, etc. Yes, they are prep, but they are something these ninja always carry with themselves. Your analogy to Konan's jutsu is completely useless, because she needs a specific location and specific conditions to be met, while ET is like any other ninja tool - you always carry it with yourself.

Hiraishin and Sasori require prep, the only difference is that Minato's speed improves Hiraishin's efficacy substantially while Sasori's preparation isn't nearly as tiresome and extensive as Edo Tensei. Even Minato conceded that prep was the reason why Kamui was intrinsically better than Hiraishin, so execution was still a concern for Minato, but not as much given that he's so fast and perspicacious in how he wields the Kunai that it's simply negligible against most opponents in the long run. If it were Part 1 Naruto, then we would most certainly take into consideration of prep.

The only difference overall is that Hiraishin and Sasori's prep isn't as much as Edo Tensei and Edo Tensei is rarely shown to be a tool that Orochimaru carries with him.

You're automatically surmising that Elite Edo Tensei are readily available to him (meaning, he's already collected the Vessel and DNA) before-hand which was never illustrated. Present me scan and perhaps I'd reconsider. Until then, I will argue that it's much like Konan's jutsu because specific conditions do have to be met.