Why you acting naive to the fact that people are trigger happy with the dislike click and that your friends be disliking your oppositions post. Kids coming from Kidgamer? the irony. What's your counter to Rinnegan genjutsu overwriting Madara's own?
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@Apex: by that logic, EMS genjutsu > MS genjutsu > 3T genjutsu. This is all false though. Genjutsu is not dependent on mode, if it is genjutsu then it is dependent on individuals skill as Zetsu said. If said person is more skilled than the other, he wins. Just like how Itachi used MS genjutsu on Sasuke yet didn't manage to defeat him in genjutsu. Instead Sasuke broke through his Tsukuyomi.
I can agree though that with Rikudo chakra his genjutsu would overpower Madara, but damn it's restricted.
That is the case though. You cannot even control the Kyuubi without MS. Itachi stated to control it you need MS. So that's power-up 1. Power-up 2 is EMS which is basically the superior in every way version of your MS. Power-up 3 is Rinnegan in which you can control all 9 Bijju with a single glance. Only Rinnegan can stop Infonite tsukiyomi, etc. So clearly it's portrayed as better dojutsu=superior Genjutsu. The Genjutsu itself is dependant on the user. Itachi can use better Genjutsu in 3T then Madara can in EMS. Madara's EMS genjutsu is still far more powerful though. Sasuke broke his Tsukiyomi a minute later with his CM2 which has put the 3T at MS levels portrayal wise several times. So the point stands.
Rikudo chakra has nothing to do with it. Superior dojutsu=superior genjutsu power. No reason for me to believe an EMS genjutsu has comparable power to a Tomoe'd Rinnegan Genjutsu which is a mix of EMS and Rinnegan.
That is the case though. You cannot even control the Kyuubi without MS. Itachi stated to control it you need MS. So that's power-up 1. Power-up 2 is EMS which is basically the superior in every way version of your MS. Power-up 3 is Rinnegan in which you can control all 9 Bijju with a single glance. Only Rinnegan can stop Infonite tsukiyomi, etc. So clearly it's portrayed as better dojutsu=superior Genjutsu. The Genjutsu itself is dependant on the user. Itachi can use better Genjutsu in 3T then Madara can in EMS. Madara's EMS genjutsu is still far more powerful though. Sasuke broke his Tsukiyomi a minute later with his CM2 which has put the 3T at MS levels portrayal wise several times. So the point stands.
Rikudo chakra has nothing to do with it. Superior dojutsu=superior genjutsu power. No reason for me to believe an EMS genjutsu has comparable power to a Tomoe'd Rinnegan Genjutsu which is a mix of EMS and Rinnegan.
Except that you can. Obito used 3T to control the Kyuubi. That part was probably hyperbole. Also EMS hasn't shown better genjutsu than MS, nor has MS shown better genjutsu from 3T. You need specific jutsu like Tsukuyomi and KA to be established they are stronger than other genjutsu. And both Tsukuyomi/KA > EMS Sharingan: Genjutsu, despite the fact that they are MS genjutsu.
What. So if Nagato has Rinnegan and can repel Infinite Tsukuyomi, does he have superior genjutsu to 3T? Because Nagato had barriers to protect his pawns from genjutsu does he have superior genjutsu? No, he doesn't even have genjutsu. That's not logic dude.
Sasuke broke through his Tsukuyomi because he was his blood relative and had mature Sharingan. Not because he had somehow boost from Senjutsu even though when he woke up, he didn't have CM2 activated.
You need proof for your statements here. But then again it's already been implied that Sharingan mode does not give you superior genjutsu, but the individuals skill affects this.
Except that you can. Obito used 3T to control the Kyuubi. That part was probably hyperbole. Also EMS hasn't shown better genjutsu than MS, nor has MS shown better genjutsu from 3T. You need specific jutsu like Tsukuyomi and KA to be established they are stronger than other genjutsu. And both Tsukuyomi/KA > EMS Sharingan: Genjutsu, despite the fact that they are MS genjutsu.
What. So if Nagato has Rinnegan and can repel Infinite Tsukuyomi, does he have superior genjutsu to 3T? Because Nagato had barriers to protect his pawns from genjutsu does he have superior genjutsu? No, he doesn't even have genjutsu. That's not logic dude.
Sasuke broke through his Tsukuyomi because he was his blood relative and had mature Sharingan. Not because he had somehow boost from Senjutsu even though when he woke up, he didn't have CM2 activated.
You need proof for your statements here. But then again it's already been implied that Sharingan mode does not give you superior genjutsu, but the individuals skill affects this.
Sasuke was using a jutsu specifically called Mangekyo Genjutsu. It was when he and Itachi freed eachother from Kabuto's sound Genjutsu, and Sasuke used an MS Genjutsu against Bee.
Sasuke was using a jutsu specifically called Mangekyo Genjutsu. It was when he and Itachi freed eachother from Kabuto's sound Genjutsu, and Sasuke used an MS Genjutsu against Bee.
Pretty sure it says ''Sharingan: Genjutsu''. There shouldn't be Mangekyo Genjutsu to begin with. Also you can use MS to initiate Genjutsu and EMS, doesn't mean it's stronger than regular Sharingan: Genjutsu. They're all the same.
Pretty sure it says ''Sharingan: Genjutsu''. There shouldn't be Mangekyo Genjutsu to begin with. Also you can use MS to initiate Genjutsu and EMS, doesn't mean it's stronger than regular Sharingan: Genjutsu. They're all the same.
Why you acting naive to the fact that people are trigger happy with the dislike click and that your friends be disliking your oppositions post. Kids coming from Kidgamer? the irony. What's your counter to Rinnegan genjutsu overwriting Madara's own?
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Im not one of the people who disliked your post, but...
Isn't that why we have the dislike button? To "dislike" thing we disagree or you know... Dislike?
When the post is truly offensive or against the fórum rules we neg rep them, but otherwise I see no harm in disliking...
Except that you can. Obito used 3T to control the Kyuubi. That part was probably hyperbole. Also EMS hasn't shown better genjutsu than MS, nor has MS shown better genjutsu from 3T. You need specific jutsu like Tsukuyomi and KA to be established they are stronger than other genjutsu. And both Tsukuyomi/KA > EMS Sharingan: Genjutsu, despite the fact that they are MS genjutsu.
It's not the point. Point is Itachi implied it can only be done with the MS, meaning MS genjutsu is more powerful. Period. EMS doesn't need to, main difference is eternal light. It's not an entirely differing Dojutsu. Rinnegan however, is entirely different and is even immune to Genjutsu from all other Dojutsu. That alone puts it at a level above EMS. And again, you are giving me MS techniques and stating them as normal Dojutsu Genjutsu. That literally makes no sense.
What. So if Nagato has Rinnegan and can repel Infinite Tsukuyomi, does he have superior genjutsu to 3T? Because Nagato had barriers to protect his pawns from genjutsu does he have superior genjutsu? No, he doesn't even have genjutsu. That's not logic dude.
Genjutsu used by his eye would be more powerful then Genjutsu used by EMS, yes. You are suggesting he has no Genjutsu because we haven't seen him use Genjutsu. That's a rather stupid way of thinking, he has all 6 elements mastered by has only shown Suiton. Does that mean he 'probably' doesn't know how to us 100+ jutsu? Nah. Pretty sure him having Genjutsu would be implicative, and even if he didn't, it doesn't change the fact that if he used Genjutsu it'd be more powerful. And do note, Sasuke's Tomoe Rinnegan is both EMS AND Rinnegan in one eye. So his Genjutsu comes as a combination of the two, making it even stronger.
Sasuke broke through his Tsukuyomi because he was his blood relative and had mature Sharingan. Not because he had somehow boost from Senjutsu even though when he woke up, he didn't have CM2 activated.
CM2 within the dream is what boosted his eye just like CM2 within Oro's dimension boosted his eye. CM2 3T=MS. He doesn't need to have it while awake for it to be active indirectly, just like Itachi can cast Genjutsu within a Genjutsu to create a new Genjutsu against Naruto (while the real Itachi never did the Genjutsu hand seals, and was actually fighting Kakashi while that happened). Genjutsu is practically a different world. Sasuke going CM2 there is what broke it, the end.
You need proof for your statements here. But then again it's already been implied that Sharingan mode does not give you superior genjutsu, but the individuals skill affects this.
Individual skill only effects the reality of the Genjutsu. The MS is stated to be>3T by Itachi in Genjutsu. EMS could be the same, don't care. Rinnegan would be > EMS/MS, and Tomoe Rinnegan is both EMS AND Rinnegan so it's 100% superior to the EMS. Thus my point stands and it overcomes Madara's Genjutsu. There's a CLEAR difference between the
It's not the point. Point is Itachi implied it can only be done with the MS, meaning MS genjutsu is more powerful. Period. EMS doesn't need to, main difference is eternal light. It's not an entirely differing Dojutsu. Rinnegan however, is entirely different and is even immune to Genjutsu from all other Dojutsu. That alone puts it at a level above EMS. And again, you are giving me MS techniques and stating them as normal Dojutsu Genjutsu. That literally makes no sense.
And the fact that Obito already used just 3T to control the Kyuubi moots Itachis and Sasukes entire statement. If a character states something, we go with it, but once done in practice and differently which contradicts the statement, we ignore the statement. Obito destroyed Itachis statement when he controlled the Kyuubi with lesser requirements and Itachi most of the time didn't even speak the truth. Just like how Hiruzen can't use all jutsu in Konoha because some need KKG.
Also, no it's not an entirely different Dojutsu. You can use Sharingan and MS while Rinnegan is active, but if you give it to another person (Rinnegan), they don't get access to Sharingan or MS as seen in manga.
Bold needs proof.
Exactly, normal Dojutsu Genjutsu is always the same unless boosted with Rikudo chakra like in Sasukes case. But he has none here.
Genjutsu used by his eye would be more powerful then Genjutsu used by EMS, yes. You are suggesting he has no Genjutsu because we haven't seen him use Genjutsu. That's a rather stupid way of thinking, he has all 6 elements mastered by has only shown Suiton. Does that mean he 'probably' doesn't know how to us 100+ jutsu? Nah. Pretty sure him having Genjutsu would be implicative, and even if he didn't, it doesn't change the fact that if he used Genjutsu it'd be more powerful. And do note, Sasuke's Tomoe Rinnegan is both EMS AND Rinnegan in one eye. So his Genjutsu comes as a combination of the two, making it even stronger.
Are you serious right now? Nagato has shown zero skills in genjutsu, and he does not have access to Sharingan techniques with Rinnegan. That alone should tell you he can't use Dojutsu Genjutsu.
The only reason Nagato can repel his genjutsu was because you cannot cast genjutsu on a person who uses the same eyes.
Having EMS and Rinnegan in one eye does not make your jutsus stronger, it just tells you can use them both at the same time. What does make it stronger is Rikudo chakra, but he doesn't have it here.
CM2 within the dream is what boosted his eye just like CM2 within Oro's dimension boosted his eye. CM2 3T=MS. He doesn't need to have it while awake for it to be active indirectly, just like Itachi can cast Genjutsu within a Genjutsu to create a new Genjutsu against Naruto (while the real Itachi never did the Genjutsu hand seals, and was actually fighting Kakashi while that happened). Genjutsu is practically a different world. Sasuke going CM2 there is what broke it, the end.
Except that the dimension where Sasuke and Orochimaru were was not a dream, it was an actual dimension. Orochimaru stated he created a separate dimension within himself. Difference is, when used CM in the dimension, it actually happened. But when you use it in genjutsu, it doesn't. Don't compare.
Itachi didn't cast genjutsu inside genjutsu, he strengthened the jutsu by applying more chakra and focus and modified the jutsu.
Individual skill only effects the reality of the Genjutsu. The MS is stated to be>3T by Itachi in Genjutsu. EMS could be the same, don't care. Rinnegan would be > EMS/MS, and Tomoe Rinnegan is both EMS AND Rinnegan so it's 100% superior to the EMS. Thus my point stands and it overcomes Madara's Genjutsu. There's a CLEAR difference between the
Again, why are you denying canon material? Why do you always do this? When Zetsu wondered why MS user was beaten in genjutsu by 3T user, Zetsu said this which you are literally arguing against:
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He literally states what you deny, so why am I even bothering to write walls dude? EMS, MS and Sharingan are just tools, the tool is as strong as the shinobi who uses it. The mode has no effect on Sharingan: Genjutsu.
And about the MS thing, it's been already debunked by Obito.
And the fact that Obito already used just 3T to control the Kyuubi moots Itachis and Sasukes entire statement. If a character states something, we go with it, but once done in practice and differently which contradicts the statement, we ignore the statement. Obito destroyed Itachis statement when he controlled the Kyuubi with lesser requirements and Itachi most of the time didn't even speak the truth. Just like how Hiruzen can't use all jutsu in Konoha because some need KKG.
Also, no it's not an entirely different Dojutsu. You can use Sharingan and MS while Rinnegan is active, but if you give it to another person (Rinnegan), they don't get access to Sharingan or MS as seen in manga.
Uh, not it doesn't. It still means MS>3T Genjutsu. It just means 3T is capable of such feats when enhanced by Hashirama's cells. Not to mention, Obito had Yagura, a perfect Jin, under his control. Also had like 5 Bijuu under Genjutsu at the same time. He's on some next level shit. Hashirama's cells were there since he was a kid and had the Kyuubi under control. So my point stands. Hiruzen using all ninjutsu was obviously hyperbole smh. Itachi's statement cannot be hyperbolised, he was stating a fact. You cannot hyperbolise or falsify a character saying deidara>minato or something.
It's in the databook 4. That's all the proof you need. And IT was only viable against non-Rinnegan users. That's more then enough for me to believe Rinnegan has a greater capacity for Genjutsu then EMS does. As Itachi stated, you need the same Dojutsu to counter a Genjutsu coming from that Dojutsu. To counter an MS Genjutsu, you need MS or something enhancing your 3T to the point where it's MS level. To counter IT, a Rinnegan Genjutsu, you need Rinnegan. It's THAT simple.
Exactly, normal Dojutsu Genjutsu is always the same unless boosted with Rikudo chakra like in Sasukes case. But he has none here.
Are you serious right now? Nagato has shown zero skills in genjutsu, and he does not have access to Sharingan techniques with Rinnegan. That alone should tell you he can't use Dojutsu Genjutsu.
The only reason Nagato can repel his genjutsu was because you cannot cast genjutsu on a person who uses the same eyes.
Having EMS and Rinnegan in one eye does not make your jutsus stronger, it just tells you can use them both at the same time. What does make it stronger is Rikudo chakra, but he doesn't have it here.
Orochimaru has showed 0 Genjutsu skills but has a 5 in Genjutsu. What's your point? Not that I ever mentioned he has Sharingan Genjutsu in the first place.
Yep, but 3T cannot cast genjutsu on Rinnegan, Rinnegan would be capable of casting Genjutsu on 3T (assuming it has Genjutsu capacity). In Sasuke's case however, he has tomoe rinnegan allowing him to cast Rinne level Genjutsu. The superior eye wins, so nothing can block his Genjutsu while his Genjutsu can block all since the Rinnegan is the ultimate level of Dojutsu.
It means his Rinnegan casts Genjutsu. That puts it above all other Genjutsu.
Except that the dimension where Sasuke and Orochimaru were was not a dream, it was an actual dimension. Orochimaru stated he created a separate dimension within himself. Difference is, when used CM in the dimension, it actually happened. But when you use it in genjutsu, it doesn't. Don't compare.
Itachi didn't cast genjutsu inside genjutsu, he strengthened the jutsu by applying more chakra and focus and modified the jutsu.
Yep, but a dimension in which everything was under Oro's control.
He changed the Genjutsu completely, what are you talking about. And he changed it INSIDE of the Genjutsu, while his real self was fighting Naruto. That shits on your whole point.
Again, why are you denying canon material? Why do you always do this? When Zetsu wondered why MS user was beaten in genjutsu by 3T user, Zetsu said this which you are literally arguing against:
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He literally states what you deny, so why am I even bothering to write walls dude? EMS, MS and Sharingan are just tools, the tool is as strong as the shinobi who uses it. The mode has no effect on Sharingan: Genjutsu.
Zetsu said what I am arguing against? So by your interpretation of that scan, 3T can cast Genjutsu upon EMS if the 3T user is far more powerful then the EMS user. Even though Itachi clearly stated otherwise.
And about the MS thing, it's been already debunked by Obito.
Why you acting naive to the fact that people are trigger happy with the dislike click and that your friends be disliking your oppositions post. Kids coming from Kidgamer? the irony. What's your counter to Rinnegan genjutsu overwriting Madara's own?
When you quote make sure my name is in it otherwise i do not get the notification
Why people got to stay blind to the facts? People do not even read the post in another people's debates clicking that dislike button is nothing if you honestly thinks dislike = a post being dumb i suggest you pull the trigga
Why people got to stay blind to the facts? People do not even read the post in another people's debates clicking that dislike button is nothing if you honestly thinks dislike = a post being dumb i suggest you pull the trigga
So why are you defending them when i claimed they're going to dislike other people's post because they're your friends? Also im not about to argue over a dislike button and the obvious. This thread is Sasuke vs Madara and since i already stopped you on that im done with it.
