[Debate] USA and the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Bronze

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How is it stupid to say to force the Japanese to surrender? No one genuinely believes that's the only reason, but to say it isn't one of the reasons is down right stupid.

Because the atomic bomb was never the reason why Imperial Japan surrendered; it was because of the Soviets. Japan and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact, which gave assurance to Japan that Soviets would not attack them during the war. The non-aggression pact became irrelevant when Germany attacked Soviet Union, despite the two also signing a non-aggression pact, and both Germany and Japan were allies.

In February 1945 at the Yalta conference between the leaders of Britain, America and the Soviet Union, Franklin D Roosevelt convinced Joseph Stalin to abandon his non-aggression pact with Japan within three months of the defeat of Germany and declare war on Tokyo.

In April, the Soviets denounced its pact with Japan. A statement read by the Soviet foreign minister to the Japanese ambassador declared that the pact "has lost its sense, and the prolongation of that pact has become impossible" because Germany was at war with the Soviet Union, and Japan was an ally of Germany.



[video=youtube;PdUTu8jIpKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdUTu8jIpKw[/video]

Historians agree on that. The whole fucking world agree on that. Only you Americans disagree. Who's the stupid?
 

minamoto

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Because the atomic bomb was never the reason why Imperial Japan surrendered; it was because of the Soviets. Japan and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact, which gave assurance to Japan that Soviets would not attack them during the war. The non-aggression pact became irrelevant when Germany attacked Soviet Union, despite the two also signing a non-aggression pact, and both Germany and Japan were allies.





[video=youtube;PdUTu8jIpKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdUTu8jIpKw[/video]

Historians agree on that. The whole fucking world agree on that. Only you Americans disagree. Who's the stupid?

Hmmmmm......it makes sense...
 

Multiply

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Because the atomic bomb was never the reason why Imperial Japan surrendered; it was because of the Soviets. Japan and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact, which gave assurance to Japan that Soviets would not attack them during the war. The non-aggression pact became irrelevant when Germany attacked Soviet Union, despite the two also signing a non-aggression pact, and both Germany and Japan were allies.





[video=youtube;PdUTu8jIpKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdUTu8jIpKw[/video]

Historians agree on that. The whole fucking world agree on that. Only you Americans disagree. Who's the stupid?
And you're going to argue that the bombs had nothing to do with their immediate surrender? They had mass destruction on their land and were about to be invaded by two different armies. Sounds like multiple reasons leading to one conclusion.
 

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And you're going to argue that the bombs had nothing to do with their immediate surrender? They had mass destruction on their land and were about to be invaded by two different armies. Sounds like multiple reasons leading to one conclusion.

Mate, did you bother opening the link or watching the video? The Japanese were prepared to surrender before America bombed them, and they surrendered as soon as the Soviets invaded them. That is the conclusion.
 

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if usa was in japanese stead ,your opinion wouldn't be the same..right?

It'd be a different case then, because we'd be the ones who sparked it.
And yea, I'd feel sorry for the people who died, I do feel the same for
the Japanese, but we'd still be at fault if we attacked first.

It's really simple, attack a country with little reason, and you'll get attacked back,
**Common sense*
There's really no need to sympathize with attackers, and yea, I know, generalizing
everyday people, and others who follow orders to murder isn't something to be done,
then again, those at Pearl Harbor tread passively when they were attacked.
 

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Because the atomic bomb was never the reason why Imperial Japan surrendered; it was because of the Soviets. Japan and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact, which gave assurance to Japan that Soviets would not attack them during the war. The non-aggression pact became irrelevant when Germany attacked Soviet Union, despite the two also signing a non-aggression pact, and both Germany and Japan were allies.





[video=youtube;PdUTu8jIpKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdUTu8jIpKw[/video]

Historians agree on that. The whole fucking world agree on that. Only you Americans disagree. Who's the stupid?

>RT
>Russia Today
>american propaganda

and here are some interesting comments from the article you posted:

"We also run the risk of projecting our own standards and context onto those of the past. In 1945, civilian casualties had been accepted as a necessary price of a war to defeat the fascist threat. All civilian populations, except the Americans, had been hit. Atomic bombs were a more efficient way of doing the same thing: destroying infrastructure and killing people. It's horrible, but it's the reality of war.
The scale was different, but the principle was the same. There is little moral difference between dropping a single atomic bomb and sending an entire air fleet to devastate a city with conventional weapons."

"Those insisting that Japan's surrender could have been procured without recourse to atomic bombs cannot point to any credible supporting evidence from the eight men who effectively controlled Japan's destiny: the six members of the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal Kido and the Emperor."
Even if it were true, it was secondary to the ultimate goal: a Japanese surrender. As has been demonstrated above, this was clearly the priority of the US because it meant not having to invade mainland Japan and spend even more lives to end the war.

and definitely:
"Those who today find it easy to condemn the architects of Hiroshima sometimes seem to lack humility in recognising the frailties of the decision-makers, mortal men grappling with dilemmas of a magnitude our own generation has been spared,"

In the full video, Ward Wilson acknowledges Japan's adamant traditions and how that could have been detrimental.

Luckily war culture has evolved and we have learned. Look at the outcome and response to the Vietnam and Korean war. Who would have thought that Nixon, a Republican president would have ended the mandatory draft? Back in September 2013, there was a bill proposed to authorize military intervention in Syria. It was canceled. Denied by the American people. Feels good right? We're finally opening up to Iran with Nuclear relations- and Cuba after 50-60 years of embargo. What else do you want?
We are becoming a more war conscious society and are aware of the consequences. As for nuclear chm/tech, we are discovering methods and procedures to utilize the incredible energy in these tiny particles (fission/fusion). Thorium, an alternative is offering more benefits, abundance, and security- a cleaner future for nuclear reactors.
Just two days ago, Japan reopened their Nuclear power sectors (Unit 1) 4 years after the Fukushima accident. this is great news for Japan's domestic source of energy. This is what Einstein would have cherished.

Unnecessary bombing? maybe, but we're sorry, we apologize.

- Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Syria






-"Japan has to import almost 90% of its energy and, like South Korea, its economic stability requires significant amounts of nuclear power "
 
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minamoto

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>RT
>Russia Today
>american propaganda

and here are some interesting comments from the article you posted:






and definitely:


In the full video, Ward Wilson acknowledges Japan's adamant traditions and how that could have been detrimental.

Luckily war culture has evolved and we have learned. Look at the outcome and response to the Vietnam and Korean war. Who would have thought that Nixon, a Republican president would have ended the mandatory draft? Back in September 2013, there was a bill proposed to authorize military intervention in Syria. It was canceled. Denied by the American people. Feels good right? We're finally opening up to Iraq with Nuclear relations- and Cuba after 50-60 years of embassy. What else do you want?
We are becoming a more war conscious society and are aware of the consequences. As for nuclear chm/tech, we are discovering methods and procedures to utilize the incredible energy in these tiny particles (fission/fusion). Thorium, an alternative is offering more benefits, abundance, and security- a cleaner future for nuclear reactors.
Just two days ago, Japan reopened their Nuclear power sectors (Unit 1) 4 years after the Fukushima accident. this is great news for Japan's domestic source of energy. This is what Einstein would have cherished.

Unnecessary bombing? maybe, but we're sorry, we apologize.

- Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Syria






-"Japan has to import almost 90% of its energy and, like South Korea, its economic stability requires significant amounts of nuclear power "

you should lend me some powers of your brain..
 

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>RT
>Russia Today
>american propaganda

Irrelevant as the one who made the statement, backed by historians, is a British American. Beside, I'll take Russian TV over an American TV any time.

and here are some interesting comments from the article you posted:

The parts you quoted were meant to be what people (American people) thought what the bombing was meant to be. The article gave a final conclusion that Japan surrendered as soon as the Soviets invaded. Denial is pointless. Period.
 

Multiply

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Irrelevant as the one who made the statement, backed by historians, is a British American. Beside, I'll take Russian TV over an American TV any time.



The parts you quoted were meant to be what people (American people) thought what the bombing was meant to be. The article gave a final conclusion that Japan surrendered as soon as the Soviets invaded. Denial is pointless. Period.
Revisionists suggest that the Japanese government was already preparing to surrender before Hiroshima. But there is little substantial evidence to support this claim.

From your own source?

Oh and,
But diplomatic messages intercepted by US intelligence, and only released to the public decades later from the 1970s onwards, revealed the overwhelming will of Japan's upper-echelons to carry on fighting to the end.
 
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Tartarus

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Yes, and more people would have died if a full scale invasion happened. There were more casualties when he firebombed Tokyo than the cities we nuked. Let's also not forget that Imperial Japan was still engaging in wholesale slaughter and rape across East Asia. The quicker Japan surrendered, the more lives were saved in places like Korea and China, so Japanese, and foreign lives were saved as a result of a faster surrender.
The bombs were a horrifying act of war, but one that would end a long and bloody war and save lives all around.
 

minamoto

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Yes, and more people would have died if a full scale invasion happened. There were more casualties when he firebombed Tokyo than the cities we nuked. Let's also not forget that Imperial Japan was still engaging in wholesale slaughter and rape across East Asia. The quicker Japan surrendered, the more lives were saved in places like Korea and China, so Japanese, and foreign lives were saved as a result of a faster surrender.
The bombs were a horrifying act of war, but one that would end a long and bloody war and save lives all around.

i respect your Opinion tho i disagree
 

RasenUchihaChaos

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They used the bombs because they were cowards their estimate if even trying to land on japan would have cost them millions if soldiers at that time Americas population was not even in the millions
 

minamoto

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What he says is true. It's not an opinion. All the scholars and scientist arraived at that conclusion

yes but other scholars and scientists said it was war crime
 

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They used the bombs because they were cowards their estimate if even trying to land on japan would have cost them millions if soldiers at that time Americas population was not even in the millions

What is this bullshit you just spouted :lol.

It would not have literally cost millions of soldiers to invade Japan, but it would have cost us thousands. Why risk the lives of your men to fight to the bitter end when you have the ability to do what you've been doing with hundreds of conventional bombs with just one bomb.
 

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Because the atomic bomb was never the reason why Imperial Japan surrendered; it was because of the Soviets. Japan and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact, which gave assurance to Japan that Soviets would not attack them during the war. The non-aggression pact became irrelevant when Germany attacked Soviet Union, despite the two also signing a non-aggression pact, and both Germany and Japan were allies.

Multiple factors underlie the Japanese decision to surrender as well as the U.S. decision to use the atomic bomb.

Imperial Japan was seeking conditions of surrender in the month or so leading up to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. By this point, loss of strategic holdings and the persistence of U.S. strategic bombing efforts pretty much reduced the outcome of the war to a statistically guaranteed failure. Imperial Japan knew that the only chance it had at surviving destruction was to seek terms of surrender.

Worse still, the Russians were making advances on territory the Japanese no longer had the capability to hold, much less garner resources from. Japan was doing everything it could just to stay off complete collapse.

Historians agree on that. The whole fucking world agree on that. Only you Americans disagree. Who's the stupid?

Historians are somewhat divided and it depends upon which sources they consider to be credible. Further, as records of the era have become declassified and various personal journals kept by key individuals of those times have become published in searchable databases, Historians have generally had to revise their view of the decision making process.

Obviously, the general American public was not aware of Imperial Japan's seeking terms of surrender and it wouldn't be for a few decades that various statistical reviews would be published. This was plenty of time for it to become fairly deeply ingrained in the public and in history books that the dropping of the atomic bombs and the surrender of Japan were a direct cause-effect relationship.

What we have been able to see behind the decision making process as things have become declassified is a bit more complex. The U.S. had more problems than Japan. The battle for Germany left the region divided with Russia refusing to turn seized territory back over to the constituent nations. Russia was turning the war into a territorial conquest, and was making advances in the Asian continent to seize territories held by Japan.

There were various interests at play, but they broke down into a general dislike for the Japanese Imperial system of government. Almost no condition of surrender would be accepted in which the Japanese preserved the emperor. Other concerns focused on the territory acquisitions of Russia and believed that the Russians would challenge U.S. capability to protect Japan's territorial claims in the event of a surrender. If the Russians chose to continue their advance, it would mean the war would simply continue with the Russians as the new enemy and the Japanese as a potentially uncooperative defense liability.

The decision was made to drop the bombs largely as a display to Russia and a reminder to Japan. Comparatively, the Atomic Bomb was not all that devastating when compared to a typical bombing campaign. Japan had already lost a few dozen cities and another two was simply water under the bridge - the fact that it was a single plane may have been noteworthy, but it wasn't as if the Japanese were being very successful at intercepting strategic bombers at that point - whether it was one plane or a thousand, there wasn't much they could do against it.

It was, however, a game-changer for Russia. If strategic air defense failed to intercept even one aircraft - large sections of a city could be forfeit, and the more likely scenario of 70% or more of a strategic bombing wing making it to their designated targets made for an absolute nightmare if they were armed with these weapons.

It completely changed the risk and cost factor of a war with the U.S. The U.S. didn't need to field large armies and work nightmare logistics abroad. They could move much smaller teams to air bases and send these aircraft over the horizon armed with bombs that could make even one-way 'suicide' missions worth the loss of both crew and aircraft.

So - arguably, dropping the atomic bombs prevented a war with Russia more so than it prevented loss of live in Japan. The argument could also be made that it squelched ideas of rebellion against the U.S. within Japan - as it did leave quite the cultural impact.

As for whether or not it was 'necessary' or 'good' - that is what we like to call "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." While the reasons underlying the decision were more complex than a simple "we needed to get Japan to surrender" - the statistical implications of a conventional war against the Russians as a continuation of World War II is worse than any single invasion against mainland Japan ever could have been - even for Japan.

It can also be argued that territories like South Korea would be currently dominated by the Kim family from what is currently North Korea - which means no Samsung or LG. South Korea is also one of the only places in the world that manufactures triple-hulled tankers for oil and natural gas. So there is that, as well (not that it couldn't be done elsewhere - but it's where it is, now).

Would it have been "better" if the U.S. had not dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

It's an impossible question to answer, frankly, and is very dependent upon just what qualifies as a 'better' outcome and how many additional factors are considered (and over what time frame). Everything looks like it would have been much better if we hadn't dropped the bomb - until you figure that Russia may very well have continued to press into Japanese occupied territories and we ended up nuking Russia, instead (and it being far less decisive - necessitating a more protracted war... though perhaps defeating Russia and dethroning the communist party, alleviating the stresses of the Cold War ... but at what cost).

There's a lot of what-ifs that can be tracked down from now until the end of time. Even if we had a full set of recordings of every meeting and letter that was involved with this decision, the fact of the matter is that some people will agree with the reasoning and others will disagree with the reasoning behind the decision.

From my personal standpoint, I have not seen enough evidence to suggest we were 'wrong' in what we did. It may have been horrible - but given the options, I can't say I've seen the evidence that our reasoning was fundamentally rooted in malevolence or something that would have me rushing back to change history if I could.

To contrast this - my opinion on America's involvement in Yugoslavia is that I'd change that if I could - and have every intention of apprehending the Clintons and throwing them before the Serbs to let the Serbs figure out what they wish to do with the family that decided to falsely portray them as genocidal barbarians to justify destroying a sovereign state.

THAT is a bit of history in which America's foreign policy crossed the moral event horizon and the heads of that whole fiasco need to roll.

Of course, you hardly ever hear about it.
 

Sennin of Logic

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It's not a question about whether or not the atomic bomb was right, but whether or not the tactics of the seconds world war were right. It was an accepted practice to bomb civilian populations with conventional and incendiary bombs at that point in time. Little Boy and Fat Man were just better weapons that replaced tons of conventional weapons. Our standards would treat this as an evil action. The standards of that era would have this bombing as a more severe form of what's already been done before. It's just simply more terrifying.
 
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