Tsunade vs Gai vs Hyuuga

[BenjerminGaye]

I feel as if you didn't read my post.

Kakashi literally shits all over your response.

I did. It doesn't change the truth of what I said. You're not a genius if your only still is working hard.

 

[NarutoX28]

I did. It doesn't change the truth of what I said. You're not a genius if your only still is working hard.

And Kakashi stated that he was a genius and his ability to open the Gates wasn't just about hard work.

We obviously know that Lee isn't a genius in the sense that he's a prodigy without working hard, but Gai's statement makes it clear that Lee can tap into his potential through hard work and dedication and Kakashi's claim about it not being just about hard work implies that the kid had a great amount of potential which needed to be accessed through hard work.

In that sense, he is really talented. You stated it yourself, Kakashi trains harder than most individuals and despite being a genius, the most he could've accomplished was opening the 1st Gate. If Lee was able to do so at a much younger age, then that certainly does imply that he is talented.

 

[BLAZE]

gai shits on both

 

[BenjerminGaye]

And Kakashi stated that he was a genius and his ability to open the Gates wasn't just about hard work.

We obviously know that Lee isn't a genius in the sense that he's a prodigy without working hard, but Gai's statement makes it clear that Lee can tap into his potential through hard work and dedication and Kakashi's claim about it not being just about hard work implies that the kid had a great amount of potential which needed to be accessed through hard work.

In that sense, he is really talented. You stated it yourself, Kakashi trains harder than most individuals and despite being a genius, the most he could've accomplished was opening the 1st Gate. If Lee was able to do so at a much younger age, then that certainly does imply that he is talented.

I said an out of shape kakashi opened the first gate. Implying that if he took the time out to train as hard as guy or lee he can open more. As anyone else can. There's no hidden potential since it was clear and obviously stated that he was crap at all three. His only skill is working hard.

Genius:exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability.

Working out isn't a natural ability that he alone has nor is it creative since anyone can do it. Its not discrediting his abilities but literally anyone can achieve the state he achieved by simply working out as hard as he did. Sasuke in a month reached his level of taijutsu. Something he trained solely in for years. Even being able to do the beginning of front lotus without even opening any gates. Something lee TO THIS DAY hasn't shown the ability to do.
Where as all other "geniuses" have abilities that cannot/hasn't be achieved by the common man(lee).

 

[lelerskates]

Gentle Fist > Strong Fist :sdo: manga facts are manga facts

Manga fact is Lee threw a Kunai in 6th gate faster than Juubi-jin Madara could react and Gai almost destroyed Juubi-Jin Madara with 1 kick... while Neji died to a twig.

 

[NarutoX28]

I said an out of shape kakashi opened the first gate. Implying that if he took the time out to train as hard as guy or lee he can open more. As anyone else can.

And again, that's refuted by Kakashi mentioned he was actually just a genius and that it wasn't about hard work.

And sure, that was Out-of-Shape Kakashi, but that doesn't imply he can't open more gates because of it as Lee (Post-Surgery) implied that he could open more gates, but of course, it would be too straining for him at that point of time due to being out-of-shape. Even if Lee wasn't capable of opening the 5th gates, he did imply he could push himself further than the 1st Gate which makes him more talented than Kakashi in that regard as the best Out-of-Shape Kakashi was implied to do was the First Gate.

Kakashi could, but that's pure speculation.

There's no hidden potential since it was clear and obviously stated that he was crap at all three. His only skill is working hard.

No. All that was stated that he wasn't a genius in all three categories in the sense that he wasn't naturally good at either of them, but Gai mentioned him having the potential to surpass Neji. Without that, he wouldn't be able to surpass Neji as he wouldn't have the hidden potential that would be required to surpass a genius.

Genius:exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability.

Except he does have a natural ability as Kakashi implied. When taking in consideration both Kakashi's and Gai's statement, I can infer that being a "genius of hard work" implies that Lee requires hard work to tap into his potential.

Working out isn't a natural ability that he alone has nor is it creative since anyone can do it. Its not discrediting his abilities but literally anyone can achieve the state he achieved by simply working out as hard as he did.

I doubt it. There are certain things people can attain through hard work alone. The fact that Kakashi claimed he was a genius makes me think that not anybody can achieve that state, especially at such a young age.

Sasuke in a month reached his level of taijutsu. Something he trained solely in for years. Even being able to do the beginning of front lotus without even opening any gates. Something lee TO THIS DAY hasn't shown the ability to do.
Where as all other "geniuses" have abilities that cannot/hasn't be achieved by the common man(lee).

Because Sasuke has a superior bloodline, is a genius, and engages in a lot of hard work. Lee's not a genius and to access his potential, he has to put in hard work. Because Sasuke places in both hard work and can access his potential quicker, he's able to make better gainz than Lee was capable of.

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It's possible Sasuke did have to release the brain's limiters (hence opening the Initial Gates) as Sasuke experienced extreme fatigue afterwards and mentioned it was a technique he couldn't use often (along with the fact that it forced the Seal to awaken as well).

Gai even mentions that this technique releases the brain's limiters and forces body to use power close to it's limit:

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Which makes sense given the fact that Sasuke's muscles were aching and the Seal awakened due to overexerting himself even further.

And obviously. There are techniques Lee cannot learn due to not having the required bloodline to attain them.

 

[Magnolius]

Manga fact is Lee threw a Kunai in 6th gate faster than Juubi-jin Madara could react and Gai almost destroyed Juubi-Jin Madara with 1 kick... while Neji died to a twig.

plothole :sdo:

 

[BLAZE]

plothole :sdo:

how the hell is that a plothole

 

[Magnolius]

how the hell is that a plothole

Because the manga says one thing and then suggests another, therefore contradicting the first thing it said :sdo: unless I have the meaning of plot hole wrong. The manga said that Gentle Fist is superior to Strong Fist, which is contradicted by Lee and Gai's feats (being superior to any feat Neji or Hinata could muster up) while using the gates .

 

[EZQ]

I did. It doesn't change the truth of what I said. You're not a genius if your only still is working hard.

I believe you're only doing this because you don't like to agree with him, because he's obviously right and you're not

 

[BLAZE]

Because the manga says one thing and then suggests another, therefore contradicting the first thing it said :sdo:

Where did manga say Gentle Fist>>>Gates let alone Seventh gate

unless I have the meaning of plot hole wrong. The manga said that Gentle Fist is superior to Strong Fist, which is contradicted by Lee and Gai's feats (being superior to any feat Neji or Hinata could muster up) while using the gates .

Even if it had said so[which i don't remember] how is it a plothole

By your logic KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke being stronger than sakura is pothole becoz manga said she was equal to them or Itachi avoiding Kirin is plothole becoz sasuke said it unavoidable and Madara dying is also a plothole becoz Itachi called him invincible immortal.

 

[Curse Mark]

Gai poops on them

 

[Magnolius]

Where did manga say Gentle Fist>>>Gates let alone Seventh gate


Even if it had said so[which i don't remember] how is it a plothole

By your logic KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke being stronger than sakura is pothole becoz manga said she was equal to them or Itachi avoiding Kirin is plothole becoz sasuke said it unavoidable and Madara dying is also a plothole becoz Itachi called him invincible immortal.

No, no, no, not by my logic, by plot hole logic, which literally means statements or events that contradict earlier events in the story line. Gai's statement about Gentle Fist being superior to Strong Fist is contradicted by the feats of Strong Fist in comparison to Gentle Fist. Manga may have stated that Sakura is equal to Naruto and Sasuke, but this is contradicted by the feats and capabilities of Naruto and Sasuke. Kirin being stated to be unavoidable by Sasuke was due to the fact that he hadn't met someone yet who could avoid it (until Itach). Just like say say Orochimaru Kusanagi sword can pierce anything, he only belives this because he hasn't used it on someone and not pierced them yet. Or like how Yata Mirror reflect all jutsu, this also isn't true, Yata Mirror just has yet to be confronted by a jutsu that it couldn't reflect. It's all a matter of opportunity. The statement that Madara is "invincible immortal" is a naive statement made by Itachi because he hadn't met someone who could kill Madara (obito). Doesn't mean that there is no one who could beat Madara, just means that Madara hasn't had the opportunity to fight someone who could kill him (to Itachi's prior knowledge). So all of these accounts don't even count as plot holes or even facts :sdo:

 

[Curse Mark]

No, no, no, not by my logic, by plot hole logic, which literally means statements or events that contradict earlier events in the story line. Gai's statement about Gentle Fist being superior to Strong Fist is contradicted by the feats of Strong Fist in comparison to Gentle Fist. Manga may have stated that Sakura is equal to Naruto and Sasuke, but this is contradicted by the feats and capabilities of Naruto and Sasuke. Kirin being stated to be unavoidable by Sasuke was due to the fact that he hadn't met someone yet who could avoid it (until Itach). Just like say say Orochimaru Kusanagi sword can pierce anything, he only belives this because he hasn't used it on someone and not pierced them yet. Or like how Yata Mirror reflect all jutsu, this also isn't true, Yata Mirror just has yet to be confronted by a jutsu that it couldn't reflect. It's all a matter of opportunity. The statement that Madara is "invincible immortal" is a naive statement made by Itachi because he hadn't met someone who could kill Madara (obito). Doesn't mean that there is no one who could beat Madara, just means that Madara hasn't had the opportunity to fight someone who could kill him (to Itachi's prior knowledge). So all of these accounts don't even count as plot holes or even facts :sdo:

Couldn't this be argued by saying that maybe Gai didn't have access to the gates until part 2, so he didn't really think it was more powerful at the point he originally said it?

 

[Magnolius]

Couldn't this be argued by saying that maybe Gai didn't have access to the gates until part 2, so he didn't really think it was more powerful at the point he originally said it?

I see where you're going with this, but that would contradict the fact that he taught part 1 Lee how to use the gates, so obviously knew how to use it himself :sdo:

 

[Curse Mark]

I see where you're going with this, but that would contradict the fact that he taught part 1 Lee how to use the gates, so obviously knew how to use it himself :sdo:

Yeah you can assume he knows it up to the fourth or fifth gate, whatever Lee used.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I believe you're only doing this because you don't like to agree with him, because he's obviously right and you're not

No im saying it because rock lee "working hard" doesn't fall under genius. Like i have been saying for the past page.

 

[NarutoX28]

No im saying it because rock lee "working hard" doesn't fall under genius. Like i have been saying for the past page.

Then you're simply arguing with Kakashi's statement that remains uncontradicted.

I'd rather stick to a statement made by the author rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Then you're simply arguing with Kakashi's statement that remains uncontradicted.

I'd rather stick to a statement made by the author rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

that wasn't a statement made by the author. It was a statement made by kakashi. I can refute kakashi's words if its illogical, which i did with the proper definition of genius. Something rock lee falls short of.

 

[BLAZE]

No, no, no, not by my logic, by plot hole logic, which literally means statements or events that contradict earlier events in the story line. Gai's statement about Gentle Fist being superior to Strong Fist is contradicted by the feats of Strong Fist in comparison to Gentle Fist.

and your point
Strong Fist equals Gates.Sasuke can use Strong fist but not gates
gates provide massive boost to any strong fist user so yes a seventh gate boosted guy will annahilate any hyuga