So on one end you are talking about hype, and on the other you are ignoring it when convenient. Hype is like a sub category to portrayal, you bring in plot induced stupidity and ignore the biggest PIS which was birdcage? You say their hype is better but don't realize her having no control over Zeus plays against her hype and portrayal as a character no matter the PIS behind it (similar to Fujitora not doing anything to birdcage). Lmfao you come off as extremely biased with these claims. The least you can do is stay consistent, or not bring these points up which clearly contradict each other in the same sentence.
The only thing objective here is Don Chinjao's words, and Luffy's own words, those can't be disputed. YK and Admirals have been placed on the exact same playing field when it comes to becoming the PK and surpassing Roger, both need to be surpassed, this was emphasized. Other than that, your only argument was what you subjectively felt was more hype, idc.
No I look at it from this perspective. Who could do what nami did to Zeus. Seriously it's just lucky that she had what she had that works against Zeus. You're using a very specific flaw that no one else can exploit as an argument against her. Good job you're not biased at all lol.
Same playing field means equal? So I guess big mom = Kaido even when she hinted at inferiority?
We can make distinctions between ppl of the same level of strength. Not everything is equal. Fujitora simply doesn't have the hype as others do in his class. And admirals thus far were step behind the yonkos. We can look at each individual admiral and yonko and the yonkos have a slightly better hype/portrayal
No I look at it from this perspective. Who could do what nami did to Zeus. Seriously it's just lucky that she had what she had that works against Zeus.
Same playing field means equal. So I guess big mom = Kaido even when she hinted at inferiority?
We can make distinctions between ppl of the same level of strength. Not everything is equal. Fujitora simply doesn't have the hype as others do in his class
Hype and portrayal have absolutely nothing to do with the "logic" behind a situation, its about the Author placing said character in a certain light, by him placing BM in that situation he is making her look bad. This applies to Fujitora as well. Stay consistent dawg.
You keep repeating random subjective claims and passing them off as some fact without any backing whatsoever. Stop bringing up Kaidou the anomaly his hype exceeds that of a Yonkou, his hype doesn't place him among the Yonkou, it places him above the Yonkou.
He is above the Yonkou just as he is above the Admirals. As a group however both parties have been placed on the same exact playing field, there is no Yonkou title >= Admiral title type deal going on here. Kaidou as an individual can be > Admirals as individuals, that's about it.
BM looks like an incompetent tool. She doesn't even have full control over her own abilities lmfao, she had her own main weapons attacking her in battle, that is the lowest of the lows. She really makes the title of Yonkou look bad, if an uncontrolled overgrown child like her can become one.
And I thought Fujitora looked bad on Dressrosa, but damn BM is hot trash. She hasn't even had a single jaw dropping moment which pretty much comes with every top tier intro.
Fujitora brought down a meteor from outer space
You must be registered for see images
Kuzan flash froze the entire ocean
You must be registered for see images
Heck her fellow Yonkou themselves,
Shanks was knocking people out without lifting a finger and without a DF trick
You must be registered for see images
something unheard of during that time, then proceeded to split the sky in a clash.
Kaidou fell from 10 000 meters without a scratch and that narrative that came with it
You must be registered for see images
These moments cemented these characters as top tiers right off the bat. Big Mom in her intro was doing building level damage on a "rampage" and scared some fodder son of hers who didn't have any hype built up to bring any impact to the scene, with the chapter titled after her and everything.
Manga being a visual medium, Oda has set apart top tiers from the rest in this regard, all these moments wowed the reader. We're this deep into BM's own arc and she can hardly provide anything, those characters did it in hardly any panel time.
The organized point, meant that the Admirals are probably more closely knit being a solely strength based title monitored by an organization, whereas the Yonkou power gap is spread out.
And you can try your best to separate the Admirals and the Yonkou, but Oda himself has made it clear they are on the exact same playing field.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
This is funny because I was told we just had to wait for her to look impressive.
And turns out she looked even worse LMAO, the community literally calls her Big Meme now, she was falling all over the place during the chase scene, and couldn't even keep her own abilities in check (Zeus), she lost all credibility.
I had a bad feeling about her since Oda didn't give her an impressive intro at all, was hoping I was wrong but she looked even worse than the initial look. People who were defending her at the beginning even stopped. Well those who aren't stubborn idiots and are willing to change their opinions.
It's become so bad, that Big Mom turned into an afterthought in this arc, Katakuri became the real focus while she is currently playing the old birdcage, buster call role. It's a travesty what Oda did to this character, second to only Sanji for this arc.
We haven't seen enough from most of these characters, so you're not gonna get an accurate ranking.
Shiryu and Magellan shouldn't even be on this list as of now, Katakuri and Jozu should be higher than Jack, Sabo should be lower, Mihawk should be higher than Shanks, and Kaido should be #1.
Hype and portrayal have absolutely nothing to do with the "logic" behind a situation, its about the Author placing said character in a certain light, by him placing BM in that situation he is making her look bad. This applies to Fujitora as well. Stay consistent dawg.
You keep repeating random subjective claims and passing them off as some fact without any backing whatsoever. Stop bringing up Kaidou the anomaly his hype exceeds that of a Yonkou, his hype doesn't place him among the Yonkou, it places him above the Yonkou.
He is above the Yonkou just as he is above the Admirals. As a group however both parties have been placed on the same exact playing field, there is no Yonkou title >= Admiral title type deal going on here. Kaidou as an individual can be > Admirals as individuals, that's about it.
He made her look stupid, so what? Luffy is an idiot and is gonna be a PK. Also she is in a hunger rage mode but even still you're nitpicking like riker rn. It doesn't make her look weak. Nami had a very particular skill set that worked no one can replicate that. Fujitora on the other hand did not have the hype or feats of say the original 3 admirals. They are two different arguments, stop conflating them.
He's not an anomaly, he's not tiers above other yonko, he's just the strongest and probably needs an extreme diff fight to beat the likes of shanks. And no BM has hype of being indestructible along with all the other hax abilities. And I'm using fujitora here because his hype and feats do not make him an equal to a BM or akainu. They are all in a similar playing field but there can be ppl who are a bit stronger or weaker within that group. Look at BB when he first became a yonko was he automatically as good as shanks or BM or the others? No he wasn't. Your absolute way of thinking is stupid. We can have two groups who are comparable but individuals within that group be marginally superior or inferior.
I think Kaido looks more like a Minotaur. I may be wrong but it will be nice to see Kaido being a Mythical Zoan type.
Now if he has flight abilities than he has to fight Shanks and Co. all alone. This will actually benefit Shanks since it was already confirmed that skirmish took place between them. And it can be assessed that Shanks & his crew somehow managed to stop him(most probably with special type of DF like controlling time and stuff like those). That will actually increase Shanks hype.
He restricted Jozu for a few seconds. Not enough to put Jozu above WB's 2nd strongest subordinate, especially when BM's third strongest looked superior to Doffy.
He restricted Jozu for a few seconds. Not enough to put Jozu above WB's 2nd strongest subordinate, especially when BM's third strongest looked superior to Doffy.
It was much longer than a few seconds. When Doflamingo restrained Jozu, both of Aokiji's icebergs were still standing. When Crocodile uses Sables to send Doflamingo and Jozu flying, one of the icebergs is cut. Meaning that Jozu was restrained for about the entire time that Mihawk was chasing Luffy and during Daz Bones' and Vista's interceptions. Doflamingo was casually sitting on top of Jozu having a conversation while Jozu couldn't even attempt to break free. That's superior portrayal.
There's also the fact that Doflamingo broke out of the same move that defeated Jozu.
He made her look stupid, so what? Luffy is an idiot and is gonna be a PK. Also she is in a hunger rage mode but even still you're nitpicking like riker rn. It doesn't make her look weak. Nami had a very particular skill set that worked no one can replicate that. Fujitora on the other hand did not have the hype or feats of say the original 3 admirals. They are two different arguments, stop conflating them.
He's not an anomaly, he's not tiers above other yonko, he's just the strongest and probably needs an extreme diff fight to beat the likes of shanks. And no BM has hype of being indestructible along with all the other hax abilities. And I'm using fujitora here because his hype and feats do not make him an equal to a BM or akainu. They are all in a similar playing field but there can be ppl who are a bit stronger or weaker within that group. Look at BB when he first became a yonko was he automatically as good as shanks or BM or the others? No he wasn't. Your absolute way of thinking is stupid. We can have two groups who are comparable but individuals within that group be marginally superior or inferior.
You're diving into irrelevant matters. This >= stuff doesn't exist when it pertains to a group.
Both groups were placed on the apex for surpassing Roger, past that I don't have to listen to any subjective ramblings. I didn't even say half the stuff you're claiming I did.
With the way swordsmen are portrayed in OP, they're not gonna be people who go "I'm losing with swordplay, time to bust out my martial art and turn the tide completely."
Even if Shanks has a MA or snipership or whatever aside from swordplay, it's not gonna be that much better than his swordplay.
With the way swordsmen are portrayed in OP, they're not gonna be people who go "I'm losing with swordplay, time to bust out my martial art and turn the tide completely."
Even if Shanks has a MA or snipership or whatever aside from swordplay, it's not gonna be that much better than his swordplay.
Shanks was portrayed to have stronger haki than Mihawk, so even if his sword skills pales in comparison to Mihawks, the way his haki has been hyped and shown would obviously be leagues above his swordsmanship, or it would compliment for his sword skills.
Because look at the way every single swordsman in the manga have been so far. Of all of them, very few have skills beyond their swordsmanship. So, off the bat, we already have a trend that swordsmen in OP tend to be primarily just swordsmen.
Now look at the swordsmen who have abilities and fighting styles beyond normal swordplay. With Trafalgar Law, if his sword is gone, he loses much of his power. Even with a Devil Fruit power, taking Law's sword away is highly detrimental; swordplay is still a major part of his capabilities.
Another example is Fujitora. So far, all of his gravity abilities have relied on him using his sword in tandem, and he's also displayed monstrous ability with his swordplay(blocking Luffy, Sabo, and most prominently on this context, Zoro).
We also have Pica. When Zoro overwhelmed his golem, Pica still spoke of his swordsmanship and Haki as though they were his trump card. He was wrong, with Zoro overwhelming that as well, but it shows that his swordplay was still a prime part of Pica's strength, not something that was secondary to his DF, as he thought the real fight was beginning now that he and Zoro were going to clash with swords.
We also have Kaku. Probably the best example of this. He was a DF user, a Martial Artist, and a swordsman. He combined those, but he also used them separately in what's probably the most versatile skillset we've seen in the manga thus far. But none of them were ever superior to the other. When Kaku used Rokushiki, it was just as hard for Zoro to overpower as when Kaku used his Yontoryu/Nitoryu or when he used his DF abilities.
Now, all of these circumstances are different between them. Some of them are multiple fighting styles, including swordplay(Kaku and Pica) while the others are combining swordplay and something else into one coherent fighting style(Law and Fujitora). But either way, at the end of the day, one thing remains the same across all of these circumstances: Swordplay was a primary aspect of power. Whether it be because it was one-half of a broader fighting style or used in addition to another fighting style, swordsmen haven't been shown to fight better without their sword. In fact, several have been shown to be worse off without it, even with additional abilities under their belt.
This is a pretty consistent portrayal. So consistent, that not a single swordsmen since the series has started has deviated from it. Unless you consider people like Kizaru or Aokiji, who just randomly use a sword-construct, to actually be swordsmen, there isn't a single swordsman in OP who abandons their sword because something else is their real power.
Shanks was portrayed to have stronger haki than Mihawk, so even if his sword skills pales in comparison to Mihawks, the way his haki has been hyped and shown would obviously be leagues above his swordsmanship, or it would compliment for his sword skills.
We've never seen Mihawk's Haki get portrayed, so it's not really accurate to say Shanks' was portrayed as stronger. Especially when we've seen few Buso feats from Shanks. But, let's continue with Shanks' Haki being stronger. The latter part of the end of your post is correct. It would compliment swordplay. Haki isn't a fighting style, it enhances your fighting style.
So Shanks could have stronger Buso than Mihawk. But that's just one aspect of a fight. As shown when Luffy fought the Boa Sisters, brute force without Haki can overpower a Haki-infused blow. So, I'd ask you, how do you know that Mihawk doesn't have superior power and is able to make up for the difference in Haki with his superior strength backing his sword swings the same way that Luffy without Haki broke the Boa Sister's Haki? Or that Mihawk doesn't have so much more stamina, that Shanks would exhaust himself and his Haki and leave himself open for a Mihawk comeback.
There are many variables that we can bring up hypothetically, and we have nothing to actually go on to support or refute them. Which is why, for now, Mihawk's title is what we fall back on.
You're diving into irrelevant matters. This >= stuff doesn't exist when it pertains to a group.
Both groups were placed on the apex for surpassing Roger, past that I don't have to listen to any subjective ramblings. I didn't even say half the stuff you're claiming I did.
Ok so let's simplify the discussion. You're saying there can't be marginal differences in strength in that group? I don't wanna put words in your mouth so I'm asking you. If your answer is yes then I will point out to BB and Kaido as examples.
It is absolutely relevant here, if you hadn't noticed this thread is abut individual characters and where they place in a top 20 of the verse. So we have to look at individuals regardless of the group they belong to.
And I like how you dropped the BM thing, you just can't admit that she's a beast and nitpick her feats/hype.
So, I'd ask you, how do you know that Mihawk doesn't have superior power and is able to make up for the difference in Haki with his superior strength backing his sword swings the same way that Luffy without Haki broke the Boa Sister's Haki?
Because his strongest sword swing got deflected by Jozu... and there would have been no reason for him to have held back since he was testing the waters with WB and wanted to use all his strength in that swing.
There are many variables that we can bring up hypothetically, and we have nothing to actually go on to support or refute them. Which is why, for now, Mihawk's title is what we fall back on.
You are using a title that only describes one characteristic of a persons power. Mihawk being the WSS does not automatically put him ahead of Shanks. This would be like someone saying that the worlds strongest boxer is the worlds strongest fighter when there are other people who fight in the MMA or wrestling that could be stronger than the worlds strongest boxer.
You can call Mihawk the WSS but that does not put him above Shanks, so it is pretty useless to say.
Ok so let's simplify the discussion. You're saying there can't be marginal differences in strength in that group? I don't wanna put words in your mouth so I'm asking you. If your answer is yes then I will point out to BB and Kaido as examples.
It is absolutely relevant here, if you hadn't noticed this thread is abut individual characters and where they place in a top 20 of the verse. So we have to look at individuals regardless of the group they belong to.
This makes no sense, I was talking about this whole Yonkou > Admiral deal, I don't care about the individual placements, those are all just based on who you like more, more than anything. No way to debate mostly featless characters.
The two alive characters who have the most feats and panel time from both parties, are Akainu and Big Mom. Akainu has been much more impressive, that's about all you can debate with actual showings.
And I like how you dropped the BM thing, you just can't admit that she's a beast and nitpick her feats/hype.
No I would have to make a long ass post about all of BM's faults in this arc (cause trust me she has tons), and I don't have the energy to do it for someone who I know will brush it aside because of clear bias. We can all make excuses for every character it's not hard to do.
This makes no sense, I was talking about this whole Yonkou > Admiral deal, I don't care about the individual placements, those are all just based on who you like more, more than anything. No way to debate mostly featless characters.
The two alive characters who have the most feats and panel time from both parties, are Akainu and Big Mom. Akainu has been much more impressive, that's about all you can debate with actual showings.
No I would have to make a long ass post about all of BM's faults in this arc (cause trust me she has tons), and I don't have the energy to do it for someone who I know will brush it aside because of clear bias. We can all make excuses for every character it's not hard to do.
Yes and why are we talking about yonkos and admirals because it's related to the topic of the thread. Yonkos have the edge in hype that's unless Oda wants to change that but individually characters like fujitora are lacking compared to yonkos. But not saying he's tiers below like you like to portray me as.
Eh they were both impressive in my opinion. They're both durable and have a ton of firepower.
Can you make a case that by hype and feats BM is inferior to fujitora? You think I'm a BM fanboy lol I hate this arc but anyways I see charterers and hype for what it is and I see big mom getting other worldly hype similar to kaido and her feats are impressive, I'm not gonna ignore that and nitpick the Zeus situation like you. You're acting very much like riker in that situation.
Also your arguments against BM all seems related to intellect not strength. Is that right?
And you never answered my question of can there be marginal differences in individuals in the yonkos and admirals. You act as if they are equal. And when I bring up kaido and Bb u went quiet.
Because his strongest sword swing got deflected by Jozu... and there would have been no reason for him to have held back since he was testing the waters with WB and wanted to use all his strength in that swing.
There's also the fact that it was stated that it was stated that master swordsmen cut only what they want to cut.
There's also the fact that there's no way any top tier can dominate the other with one technique. Jozu blocking one technique does not mean that he could block a flurry of them, or multiple of them. Damage stacks. Case in point: Daz Bones blocking a slash from Mihawk with no visible drawback only to be defeated by one more slash immediately after. If you want to say that Jozu blocking that one slash is demonstrates Mihawk can't cut him, then I want you to show me proof that Jozu could have withstood multiple of those slashes stalking on each other one after the other.
You are using a title that only describes one characteristic of a persons power.
No. It's a title that describes someone's position within a group. The group is swordsmen, the position is most powerful. It's not the Word's Most Skilled Swordsman, it's the world's most powerful swordsman. Meaning, if you're a swordsman, Mihawk is more powerful than you.
Mihawk being the WSS does not automatically put him ahead of Shanks. This would be like someone saying that the worlds strongest boxer is the worlds strongest fighter when there are other people who fight in the MMA or wrestling that could be stronger than the worlds strongest boxer.
Nope. For one thing, you can't use real world metrics of what defines someone as a fighter since the OP world deviates from that. As I outlined above, there isn't a single example of a swordsman who's called a swordsman, and it isn't primarily what makes them powerful.
To be accurate to the OP world, this is the proper analogy: Being labeled a "boxer" means that even if you're also a wrestler and martial artist, those skills won't be much greater than your boxing. Otherwise, you wouldn't be regarded as a boxer. THAT'S how a parallel to OP swordsmen as they've been portrayed would actually work.
Meaning that if the world's greatest wrestler was also renowned as a boxer, using the context of the OP world and not the real world(the latter of which being flawed), his wrestling wouldn't be much better than how good he is as a boxer. So the World's Greatest Boxer would still win.
Now, does that mean we'll never see deviation from this? No. We could very well see a swordsman one day who reveals swordsmanship isn't his primary power. But we've had zero of those so far. So until we do see one, it's a non-factor.
Yes and why are we talking about yonkos and admirals because it's related to the topic of the thread. Yonkos have the edge in hype that's unless Oda wants to change that but individually characters like fujitora are lacking compared to yonkos. But not saying he's tiers below like you like portray me as.
Eh they were both impressive in my opinion. They're both durable and have a ton of firepower.
Can you make a case that by hype and fears BM is inferior to fujitora? You think I'm a BM fanboy lol I hate this arc but anyways I see charterers and hype for what it is and I see big mom getting other worldly hype similar to kaido, I'm not gonna ignore that and nitpick the Zeus situation like you.
This is BM shitting her pants falling down from a height, with her crew worried about her well being with Capone implying BM would die.
You must be registered for see images
This is Kaidou jumping off from 10 000 meters from a sky island daring the fall to do something to him.
You must be registered for see images
And durability is supposed to be one of her strongest assets in battle, their hype and portrayal is levels apart, with the Yonkou title being the only thing keeping her in it.
You're just ignoring her lowballs and going for her decent showings, Fujitora was so casual on Dressrosa, atleast he had that excuse, BM is literally going full throttle.
Fujitora was lifting an entire islands worth of rubble, one of the single greatest feats in this manga, he essentially lifted an island. I can do the same, ignore the low showings and go right to the good ones, no shit these are top tiers they're bound to have atleast something impressive about them.
And no I don't think Big Mom > Fujitora, I initially did before this arc began, because of Fujitora's sub par Dressrosa showings, but then this arc came starting from her extremely weak intro scene, to her main weapon being damaged by Brook, to now being a walking gag scene when her underling plays the role of arc antagonist, that is beyond sad because atleast Fujitora was not the focal point of that arc he was never intended to be. I change my beliefs based on what material I'm given. It's simple really.
