Tobirama's mastery of Suiton has been nerfed.

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yes, you are addressing experiences not arsenals. The Hyugas are overall more powerful in smaller scale but they do have potential for bigger scale as well.

You are saying is that it is due to their inexperience for not participating in wars that they fall behind. While that is true that they are underdevelop in warfare, it does not negate the fact that they are lacking weaponry.

This goes for the example of the Uzumakis. They didn't participate with the ancestral war and yet because of their power, they were feared and were annihilated. So how come the Hyuga were not on the same boat? As you have said, the Hyugas are overall more powerful than the Uchihas as they have to go through the whole Sharingan awakening and as well as the scaling is harder.

Yet the Hyugas remained safe and untouched? It is merely that they had their own share of warfare. To the point that it was necessary for them to make the branch family their soldiers and give them a seal so that they cannot turn on the main family (they even went to war with themselves at one point).

So they aren't completely removed from war. Although that is besides the point.



What? I think you missed the point entirely.
The point is that the ENTIRE clans are powerful. They have inherit powers. Like Mangekyu isn't just for Indra transmigrants.
You have Itachi, Obito, Shisui and Shin and probably many others outside of Madara and Sasuke of obtaining the Mangekyu while not being transmigrants.

Can't say much for Senju as they've died and Tsunade weren't able to learn about the Sage Mode from Hashirama so she made a similar technique.

As for the Uzumaki, there were special people within that clan that had the chakra chains. Yet they do not need to be transmigrants. They ended up being Jins though because of it.

Again, you are stuck on the whole aspect of "transmigrant wars" and being a transmigrant of Indra and Asura yet you completely ignore the fact that there are many examples of people attaining the same level of powers without being a transmigrant.

Obito and Itachi with Susanoo. Kushina and Karin with chakra chains. Toneri with Chakra Mode and Tenseigan.



Your analogy isn't applicable here. I get what you are saying that Indra and Asura are special. But they are not the deciding factors of who gets what power. The Otsutsuki bloodline does.

You are treating the clan as apples and the transmigrants as branches when you should be treating the clans as the roots and trunk (the entire tree, the Kaguya family tree to be exact). The highest point of the tree is still the tree itself, not the branch as the branch is still part of the tree, not the leaves as leaves are still part of the tree, not the fruits as the fruits are still part of the tree.

Yes, not all of the tree can be the highest part but the fact that remains is that it is all the same part of the tree. Yet, Hyugas are considered a separate and a shorter tree. This is what I am getting at.

You are simply stuck at the Indra Asura aspect when they are not even required. It is merely that it is the focus of the story, that does not mean they become a requirement.
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As you can already tell that I am illiterate, no. I have not read it. What is it about?
No, im talking about arsenals, i have been this entire time.

The Uchiha have stronger access to ancestral powers because of the ancestral hatred, not because Indra was stronger than Hamura.

Your other points are workable, but this one is the crux of this matter.
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YO ifnant!!!!!!... what book is about?????..
That's the point . . .
 

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The Uchiha have stronger access to ancestral powers because of the ancestral hatred
I don't think that's relevant considering that the moon was the exact same parallel of the Earth. Although their reasoning for the war is what to do with Earth since Hagoromo's children, Indra and Asura started a never ending war.

It was that the moon didn't have the war finish until some time later after the Alliance War (where Madara resurrected Kaguya).
So yes, the Moon had a Sage of 6 Path and they also have an ancestral war due to Indra and Asura wars.

I believe that the Uchiha had more techniques that were developed over time but none of those matter as they are not Otstusuki -level techniques (like Susanoo, God Tree Sage Mode, etc.)

The Hyugas should have had inherent techniques like the Jougan (which is why the Jougan exists now because Kishi neglected to scale the Hyugas up by sidelining their progression).
Yes, you may argue that the existence of Jougan may have been an super old secret much like how the Uchiha Tablet told about the Mangekyu and the Rinnegan.

That is basically the only thing I can think of as to how it was ok to not have any development for the Huygas (you can't know what you don't know) sort of thing. However, Kaguya was showcased.

During the time for Kaguya's arc, Kishi was in the middle of working on The Last, therefore the concept of Tenseigan and the parallels are there.

I think he hid the Tenseigan because he did not want to spoil the movie plot. Still, Tenseigan is not a Hyuga power but the Hyuga is part of it. So that means that there should have been a 2nd tier power for the Hyugas.

The only two I can think of are the God Palm of Kaguya and the Purple Twin Lion Gentle Fists of Hinata. But those are higher tier than Hyuga and at Hamura level.

Basically this:

Indra = Mangekyu (Susanoo)
Asura = Sage Mode (God Tree/Ninshu)
Toneri = Chakra Mode (whatever he was suppose to have that wasn't Tenseigan tech/puppets?)

Hyuga = Jougan (???)
 
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I don't think that's relevant considering that the moon was the exact same parallel of the Earth. Although their reasoning for the war is what to do with Earth since Hagoromo's children, Indra and Asura started a never ending war.

It was that the moon didn't have the war finish until some time later after the Alliance War (where Madara resurrected Kaguya).
So yes, the Moon had a Sage of 6 Path and they also have an ancestral war due to Indra and Asura wars.

I believe that the Uchiha had more techniques that were developed over time but none of those matter as they are not Otstusuki -level techniques (like Susanoo, God Tree Sage Mode, etc.)

The Hyugas should have had inherent techniques like the Jougan (which is why the Jougan exists now because Kishi neglected to scale the Hyugas up by sidelining their progression).
Yes, you may argue that the existence of Jougan may have been an super old secret much like how the Uchiha Tablet told about the Mangekyu and the Rinnegan.

That is basically the only thing I can think of as to how it was ok to not have any development for the Huygas (you can't know what you don't know) sort of thing. However, Kaguya was showcased.

During the time for Kaguya's arc, Kishi was in the middle of working on The Last, therefore the concept of Tenseigan and the parallels are there.

I think he hid the Tenseigan because he did not want to spoil the movie plot. Still, Tenseigan is not a Hyuga power but the Hyuga is part of it. So that means that there should have been a 2nd tier power for the Hyugas.

The only two I can think of are the God Palm of Kaguya and the Purple Twin Lion Gentle Fists of Hinata. But those are higher tier than Hyuga and at Hamura level.

Basically this:

Indra = Mangekyu (Susanoo)
Asura = Sage Mode (God Tree/Ninshu)
Toneri = Chakra Mode (whatever he was suppose to have that wasn't Tenseigan tech/puppets?)

Hyuga = Jougan (???)
You working out is very impressive, very impressive indeed.

Still, its in the very definition of parallel lines that they are not exactly the same. Do research on existential identity.

The main difference here being the reasons for the ancestral shenanigans - the Uchiha and Senju have their founders trying to kill each other off (at least, the Uchiha). So those very same founders are directly applying themselves.

So the Hyuga do have powers equal (in my opinion, they are even better) to Uchiha powers, they just lack the method to tap into them. The Uchiha have their ancestor willpower to unlock his full power. The Hyuga do not have this, not in the same way.
 
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wanderingcactus

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the Uchiha and Senju have their founders trying to kill each other off (at least, the Uchiha). So those very same founders are directly applying themselves.

So the Hyuga do have powers equal (in my opinion, they are even better) to Uchiha powers, they just lack the method to tap into them. The Uchiha have their ancestor willpower to unlock his full power. The Hyuga do not have this, not in the same way.
Yes it is unfortunate that we do not get to see what the Moon Wars were like. We only know based on Toneri's account that the branch family stole the Tenseigan artifact and used puppets and ultimately won the war.

Perhaps we would have known more about the Hyuga's and "Uzumaki" (I'm just using that as placeholder) power but we only did get to see Toneri's powers when he had the incomplete Tenseigan (his eyes were still blue and swirling instead of the yellow star patterned eyes like Hamura's Tenseigan Orb).
 
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Yes it is unfortunate that we do not get to see what the Moon Wars were like. We only know based on Toneri's account that the branch family stole the Tenseigan artifact and used puppets and ultimately won the war.

Perhaps we would have known more about the Hyuga's and "Uzumaki" (I'm just using that as placeholder) power but we only did get to see Toneri's powers when he had the incomplete Tenseigan (his eyes were still blue and swirling instead of the yellow star patterned eyes like Hamura's Tenseigan Orb).
Perhaps we will be offered flashbacks or an arc by Boruto or maybe even the successor to Boruto will be based on the moon?
 

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Perhaps we will be offered flashbacks or an arc by Boruto or maybe even the successor to Boruto will be based on the moon?
I hope so but I doubt it. Apparently the Boruto series will end soon. It doesn't have a lot of chapters going for it. I think it is just the Isshiki arc then the Kawaki vs Boruto fight and that is it. Probably only has at best 2 more years left.
 

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I hope so but I doubt it. Apparently the Boruto series will end soon. It doesn't have a lot of chapters going for it. I think it is just the Isshiki arc then the Kawaki vs Boruto fight and that is it. Probably only has at best 2 more years left.
But the Naruto franchise is still profitable, so maybe they are stopping short to start a new series

I hope so
 

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But the Naruto franchise is still profitable, so maybe they are stopping short to start a new series

I hope so
well there are 2 reasons why Boruto is flopping.
1) they fail to capture new audience
2) they are failing to retain the old audience

We know that the anime was meant to capture new audience by setting it all back to Part 1 Naruto. Perhaps even for people who wanted to get some nostalgia. However, Boruto is not well set up enough to make it appealing for new audience. One, the anime studio loves to make uninteresting story arcs - fillers. Two, they do not have the liberty to be creative as the manga ultimately dictates the story. This means restricted creativity and means that people who follow the manga are even more pissed about the anime's progression.

For the old audience like ourselves, we want a continuation. Boruto is NOT a continuation. It is not Kishi's work nor are they able to use his work extensively. This is the main reason why Naruto and Sasuke are super weak. As you already know, this is what is turning old audiences off.

Which is why the rating for Boruto is so low despite the fact that it has so much potential to be great. Hell, we know that Ikemoto is capable of doing something great as he remade Momoshiki's design (questionable choice for Sarada though.. WTF).
As for Kodachi, he can be formulaic as he can just use parallels as foundations for his story and it will be easily accepted.
The Jougan was nice as it is finally addressing some of the things that can be considered as "plot hole"

Knowing me, you already know where I lie with that. Another thing is that the incorporation of Karma being related to BZ's existence. Karma is something that explains his existence and how Hagoromo and Hamura can be floating ghosts in the Tailed Beasts or Tomb, respectively. It also explains and ties in to the incarnation thing with Indra and Asura.

Basically the formula follows the doujutsu's dilution where it goes like this: Karma, Floating Ghosts, will/incarnation. (Yang)
Much like how there's Rinnegan, Mangekyu, Sharingan; and Tenseigan, Jougan, Byakugan. (Yin)

It fits the bill for dualism as well. So we know Kodachi and Ikemoto are good. Just heavily impacted with not being able to be creative about it.

Also there are many who see their work as a slight to Kishi's work and untrue to it. Well, I can definitely even name someone who thinks Kishi's own work is fan fic.

This is why Boruto is low in terms of audience rating, falling to mediocre or lower.

So while it is profitable, I do not think they can profit from it with the way they are doing things.
 

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well there are 2 reasons why Boruto is flopping.
1) they fail to capture new audience
2) they are failing to retain the old audience

We know that the anime was meant to capture new audience by setting it all back to Part 1 Naruto. Perhaps even for people who wanted to get some nostalgia. However, Boruto is not well set up enough to make it appealing for new audience. One, the anime studio loves to make uninteresting story arcs - fillers. Two, they do not have the liberty to be creative as the manga ultimately dictates the story. This means restricted creativity and means that people who follow the manga are even more pissed about the anime's progression.

For the old audience like ourselves, we want a continuation. Boruto is NOT a continuation. It is not Kishi's work nor are they able to use his work extensively. This is the main reason why Naruto and Sasuke are super weak. As you already know, this is what is turning old audiences off.

Which is why the rating for Boruto is so low despite the fact that it has so much potential to be great. Hell, we know that Ikemoto is capable of doing something great as he remade Momoshiki's design (questionable choice for Sarada though.. WTF).
As for Kodachi, he can be formulaic as he can just use parallels as foundations for his story and it will be easily accepted.
The Jougan was nice as it is finally addressing some of the things that can be considered as "plot hole"

Knowing me, you already know where I lie with that. Another thing is that the incorporation of Karma being related to BZ's existence. Karma is something that explains his existence and how Hagoromo and Hamura can be floating ghosts in the Tailed Beasts or Tomb, respectively. It also explains and ties in to the incarnation thing with Indra and Asura.

Basically the formula follows the doujutsu's dilution where it goes like this: Karma, Floating Ghosts, will/incarnation. (Yang)
Much like how there's Rinnegan, Mangekyu, Sharingan; and Tenseigan, Jougan, Byakugan. (Yin)

It fits the bill for dualism as well. So we know Kodachi and Ikemoto are good. Just heavily impacted with not being able to be creative about it.

Also there are many who see their work as a slight to Kishi's work and untrue to it. Well, I can definitely even name someone who thinks Kishi's own work is fan fic.

This is why Boruto is low in terms of audience rating, falling to mediocre or lower.

So while it is profitable, I do not think they can profit from it with the way they are doing things.
Well said

There's also a big difference in the relationship between anime ajd manga with Boruto. The anime is made as soon as the manga is made. That means the anime team doesn't know what to work towards. For example, they could never do a 3 Tails Arc because they can't guarantee if any characters will have new powers or not. So its like they have their own ideas but have to hold back because they have not framework to build around and towards.

There is also the pressure the authors face with each chapter. Naruto had the freedom to start out as just a manga, but Boruto is already set high expectations. This adds on to that with Naruto, the author had previously tested out his ideas in Mechanism manga and so had a feel for how to handle his own ideas. Boruto authors havenone of that practice ground. The pressure to make money also limits authenticity of ideas for the story hecause its less art and more business.

What you said about the author not telling his own work is also true
 
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Well said

There's also a big difference in the relationship between anime ajd manga with Boruto. The anime is made as soon as the manga is made. That means the anime team doesn't know what to work towards. For example, they could never do a 3 Tails Arc because they can't guarantee if any characters will have new powers or not. So its like they have their own ideas but have to hold back because they have not framework to build around and towards.

There is also the pressure the authors face with each chapter. Naruto had the freedom to start out as just a manga, but Boruto is already set high expectations. This adds on to that with Naruto, the author had previously tested out his ideas in Mechanism manga and so had a feel for how to handle his own ideas. Boruto authors havenone of that practice ground. The pressure to make money also limits authenticity of ideas for the story hecause its less art and more business.

What you said about the author not telling his own work is also true
The studio certainly have their work cut out for them. It is very unfortunate that they are pressured to create stuff weekly and not being able to have certain creative liberties on top of that due to audience's wrath. Honestly, they should at least just be working with Kodachi. Kodachi should be leading the script team for the anime to give it a little bit more substance because they cannot do daring things and when they do, they tend to milk them and go all out which feel a bit disappointing. An example of this is Urashiki's arc. They really did something daring for him. Yet, it was so different that it felt very off and unlike Naruto and did not fit properly to the universe.
 
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The studio certainly have their work cut out for them. It is very unfortunate that they are pressured to create stuff weekly and not being able to have certain creative liberties on top of that due to audience's wrath. Honestly, they should at least just be working with Kodachi. Kodachi should be leading the script team for the anime to give it a little bit more substance because they cannot do daring things and when they do, they tend to milk them and go all out which feel a bit disappointing. An example of this is Urashiki's arc. They really did something daring for him. Yet, it was so different that it felt very off and unlike Naruto and did not fit properly to the universe.
Would it have been better if . . .

Like with Yugioh ands Pokemon, they all just focussed on the anime and didn't do a manga? Maybe letting a whole other team prepare a manga as a supplement to the anime (as in, focussing on side characters and covering situations not fully explored in the anime) or even as a preparation for an entirely new age within Naruto (like, focussing on the moon or on the next generation)?
 
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