Tobirama's mastery of Suiton has been nerfed.

[Nidaime Suiton]

In fact, during the First Gen, Tobirama was the best Suiton user.

In the first gen, Tobirama was the only shinobi able to use Suiton jutsu without any water source.

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Zabuza wasn't able to use Suiton techniques without water source, all of his Suiton jutsu were created from water source.

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Kisame feats in the First Gen weren't the same than in Shippuden. In the First Gen, all Kisame water techniques were created from water source because he fought Might Guy on Konoha river.

So in the First Gen, the Tobirama's title "best suiton user of all time" was legit.

But Kishimoto destroyed everything in Shippuden, he nerfed Tobirama's suiton mastery and reputation.

He over boosted Kisame's suiton mastery, and he gave some feats to Mei Terumi like to use Suiton jutsu without any water source, which was originally Tobirama's speciality.

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Back in the time, when Tobirama was just reanimating by Orochimaru, I thought Tobirama gonna show amazing suiton feats like creating big tsunami or anything else great.

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I was over hyped. But as Obito and Madara were extremly powerful, to use Suiton jutsu was useless against them, so we didn't see any Tobirama suiton technique except Suiton Suidanha which is a powerful jutsu but not enough amazing like we could imagine.

Tobirama's title of "best suiton user" should be restored. I alway imagine Hashirama and Tobirama as monster in mastering elementary jutsu, if Hashirama is able to use over powerful Mokuton jutsu, I expect Tobirama to have amazing feats in Suiton. I alway imagined Tobirama as the guy able to counter Madara's katon jutsu back in the time.

This is how Tobirama's mastery of Suiton should have been.

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[minamoto]

kisame sempei says hi..

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Well Tobirama wasn't said to be the only one who could create/use alot of water without a source. As you said, Kisame's only fight in Part One was by water. So it could be that he simply utilized the water present to conserve chakra. Mei is the Kage of a village which consist of water users. Her feat shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Infant]

Why cant others improve after the first era of kage, allowing Tobirama to be surpassed?

Why can't Kisame have held back his true powers in Naruto 1?

These seem to be the foundations of your argument, so i must ask

 

[Tantalus Thief]

tobirama suiton prowress should've been like around the scale of base hashirama mokuton.

 

[Infant]

tobirama suiton prowress should've been like around the scale of base hashirama mokuton.

Why?

 

[Tantalus Thief]

Why?

felt like it would be a nice complement. Hashirama uses large scale wood, tobirama uses large scale water. It makes tobirama more different than minato since I felt like in the war arc he overused ftg too much. And it adds to the hype of tobirama's water skills. I don't want tobirama to make huge water golems and 1000 arm buddhas or anything like that.

 

[Infant]

felt like it would be a nice complement. Hashirama uses large scale wood, tobirama uses large scale water. It makes tobirama more different than minato since I felt like in the war arc he overused ftg too much. And it adds to the hype of tobirama's water skills. I don't want tobirama to make huge water golems and 1000 arm buddhas or anything like that.

But Hashirama was noted as having tailed beast levels of chakra.

Why must it go beyond the hype?

Post automatically merged: Sep 24, 2020

Or do you just wish the character was made more powerful in general?

 

[Tantalus Thief]

But Hashirama was noted as having tailed beast levels of chakra.

Why must it go beyond the hype?

Like I said not exactly too crazy. I just think kisame shouldn't be showing higher scaled water than tobirama. And i'd like for tobirama to be stronger since he's hashirama's bro and fought with madara/izuna throughout the years

 

[Infant]

Like I said not exactly too crazy. I just think kisame shouldn't be showing higher scaled water than tobirama. And i'd like for tobirama to be stronger since he's hashirama's bro and fought with madara/izuna throughout the years

"Shouldn't" . . .

Suggesting there's story justification for the thought. I don't see it.

Again, Hashirama was mentioned is being special for chakra. Why should it extend to Tobirama?

That's why im asking if you're saying that the story didn't do justice to him or if you just wish he was made stronger in general, not because of anything within the story.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Why cant others improve after the first era of kage, allowing Tobirama to be surpassed?

Why can't Kisame have held back his true powers in Naruto 1?

These seem to be the foundations of your argument, so i must ask

Because Kishi can't write. Also if Kishi did write them, it would have to be as side stories and would detract from the main story. Otherwise, it would come as an asspull out of nowhere.

This is the main reason why Hyugas suck so much balls in Gen 2. I mean, air palm? that's it? One of the most feared clans that are on par with the Uzumakis, Senjus and Uchihas and exalted for their mastery of chakra blockage is as pathetic as that?

 

[Infant]

Because Kishi can't write. Also if Kishi did write them, it would have to be as side stories and would detract from the main story. Otherwise, it would come as an asspull out of nowhere.

This is the main reason why Hyugas suck so much balls in Gen 2. I mean, air palm? that's it? One of the most feared clans that are on par with the Uzumakis, Senjus and Uchihas and exalted for their mastery of chakra blockage is as pathetic as that?

Not that i don't sympathize with you . . .

But what does his writing skill have to do with other characters being capable of surpassing the first era? Or with Kisame having maybe held back?

Why is an Air Palm necessarily pathetic?

 

[minamoto]

Not that i don't sympathize with you . . .

But what does his writing skill have to do with other characters being capable of surpassing the first era? Or with Kisame having maybe held back?

Why is an Air Palm necessarily pathetic?

you and wanderctus...could be good menberz of my tobidara clan...so dont fight each otherz plz..

 

[wanderingcactus]

But what does his writing skill have to do with other characters being capable of surpassing the first era? Or with Kisame having maybe held back?

Why is an Air Palm necessarily pathetic?

Because writing skill is the fundamentals of everything in the story. They are what makes things plausible and implausible. We constantly reference new information with old information. If things do not match up, we tend to resist new ideas based on that. Which is why it is far harder to convince someone of something entirely new rather than persuading them that their old beliefs and values are correct.

Characters surpassing the first era would be hard as Kishi set them up as the God Era. It is a period in which there is a supernatural phenomena had happened: Transmigrant Wars.

Without that, the players are back to being normal regular ninjas (they simply pale in comparison to the gods of shinobis despite the fact that their are exemplary to begin with)

While we know that the Hyugas are from that same lineage, we do not get to see any progress that are worthy to being part of that lineage. Basically, they fall short on pacing when compared to the other clans (although they are the last standing clan out of the 4 branches of Kaguya).

Air Palm is pathetic compared to the other 3 lineages. I would say that it is comparable to one eye Mangekyu tech (not Susanoo where it uses both eyes). Or the mokuton or chakra chains.

They didn't have anything that are on par with the godlike powers of the other 3.
Susanoo, Sage Mode, Chakra Mode.
We finally got Jougan which is what we would consider as the equivalent of the Mangekyu even if we still have no clue on what it does and what it unlocks power wise. It seems like a tactical or strategic eye to me (at best, it is kind of like an Anti-Kamui). I would clump it with his vanishing Rasengan and think that his eye power is making his Rasengan travel through different dimension/time

 

[Urda]

I don't think it was nerf. It just all hype for Part 1. Kishi didn't really show much of the feat in the War Arc when he was revived.

 

[Infant]

you and wanderctus...could be good menberz of my tobidara clan...so dont fight each otherz plz..

Hmm

In religion, folklore has it that warrior angels existed long before any divisions occured. One should ask: why is this so? And how did they refine their ability with no enemies?

And in light of that, one should ask: is a clash necessarily negative?

Post automatically merged: Sep 24, 2020

Because writing skill is the fundamentals of everything in the story. They are what makes things plausible and implausible. We constantly reference new information with old information. If things do not match up, we tend to resist new ideas based on that. Which is why it is far harder to convince someone of something entirely new rather than persuading them that their old beliefs and values are correct.

Characters surpassing the first era would be hard as Kishi set them up as the God Era. It is a period in which there is a supernatural phenomena had happened: Transmigrant Wars.

Without that, the players are back to being normal regular ninjas (they simply pale in comparison to the gods of shinobis despite the fact that their are exemplary to begin with)

While we know that the Hyugas are from that same lineage, we do not get to see any progress that are worthy to being part of that lineage. Basically, they fall short on pacing when compared to the other clans (although they are the last standing clan out of the 4 branches of Kaguya).

Air Palm is pathetic compared to the other 3 lineages. I would say that it is comparable to one eye Mangekyu tech (not Susanoo where it uses both eyes). Or the mokuton or chakra chains.

They didn't have anything that are on par with the godlike powers of the other 3.
Susanoo, Sage Mode, Chakra Mode.
We finally got Jougan which is what we would consider as the equivalent of the Mangekyu even if we still have no clue on what it does and what it unlocks power wise. It seems like a tactical or strategic eye to me (at best, it is kind of like an Anti-Kamui). I would clump it with his vanishing Rasengan and think that his eye power is making his Rasengan travel through different dimension/time

I like your general thinking, even if there are falws within it, for this post

However, it doesnt directly connect with the topic.

Skill determines how well you do something, not what you do. Its like, i can decide to race, but how fast i go comes down to skill. Here, we're talking about what should have happened, not whether it was done well enough. So skill doesn't count much. (Everything always matters, but some things matter more than others within any context)

If its on par, the Air Palm, with a single eye, how does that equal "pathetic"? I mean, the Hyuga have 3 other powers of equal standing to it so even by your notion they stand as 2× stronger than a total MS package. Are you expecting it to be equal to the entire MS package? Why?

So really, what's your standard or basis here? Is it some story hype or explanations? Personal preference? Just musing ideas?

 

[wanderingcactus]

Its like, i can decide to race, but how fast i go comes down to skill. Here, we're talking about what should have happened, not whether it was done well enough.

If we use that example, then yes. The power scaling isn't based on skills but rather the power/arsenal available. Think of this for example: Kaguya and Momoshiki
Kaguya and Momoshiki attained the ultimate being and yet, due to their inexperience of many years of wars, their advantage of strength and plethora of arsenals are wasted and they were able to be overcome by sneak attacks.

However, give the same powers to say Madara or Isshiki (people with years and years of experience fighting) then you have yourself a real boss fight.

If its on par, the Air Palm, with a single eye, how does that equal "pathetic"?

It is pathetic considering that the single eye technique, mokuton, fuinjutsu/chakra chain are not gonna be a powerful threat to say a Perfect Susanoo, Sage Mode buffed God Tree summons, blitzing Chakra Mode.

If we take things into racing again, this is like having a GT 4 ton 600 hp car. Something that is amazing compared to road hyper cars but compared to say F1? Where they not only have the horsepower but also the lightweight? (1000 hp 1-2 ton car)

Sure, GTs and other formula vehicles are powerful but not as powerful as the top tier ones. But let's bring this apples to apples:

The Hyugas are F1 cars that are restricted to 800hp compared to the rest of the other F1 cars that are restricted to 1000hp. Their association to Otsutsuki means that they are in the same league as the other Kaguya lineage family. They are greater than the other leagues as well. However, their underdevelopment never truly put them into what makes F1 vehicles F1 vehicles.

I mean, the Hyuga have 3 other powers of equal standing to it so even by your notion they stand as 2× stronger than a total MS package

We've seen Perfect Susanoo and God Tree Summon destroy landscapes. We've seen Naruto's and Toneri's Chakra Modes obliterate landscapes. How is it that you think that the Hyugas are on par with those 3 Clans when we still haven't seen them destroy landscapes individually?

The only one I can think of that would really put Hyuga on the same level playing field as those 3 is if they have the God Palm that Kaguya used.

what's your standard or basis here?

3 Clan power scaling. PS, GT SM, KCM... no Hyugas (not even in The Last)

Is it some story hype or explanations

Lack of. The hype stems from the Hyuga being Otsutsuki. Yet their shown peak of power is Air Palm: an equivalent of 1 eye Mangekyu techique (where the other 2 clans are on par with the Uchiha's Perfect Susanoo power).

Personal preference? Just musing ideas?

No clue what you mean by this? I've already stated that Hyuga are underdeveloped due to the scaling of the other 3 and the Hyuga's ties to the Otsutsuki Clan. As well as having a dedicated movie that directly involves the Hyuga Clan and yet they still somehow were overshadowed and weren't developed further

 

[Infant]

If we use that example, then yes. The power scaling isn't based on skills but rather the power/arsenal available. Think of this for example: Kaguya and Momoshiki
Kaguya and Momoshiki attained the ultimate being and yet, due to their inexperience of many years of wars, their advantage of strength and plethora of arsenals are wasted and they were able to be overcome by sneak attacks.

However, give the same powers to say Madara or Isshiki (people with years and years of experience fighting) then you have yourself a real boss fight.



It is pathetic considering that the single eye technique, mokuton, fuinjutsu/chakra chain are not gonna be a powerful threat to say a Perfect Susanoo, Sage Mode buffed God Tree summons, blitzing Chakra Mode.

If we take things into racing again, this is like having a GT 4 ton 600 hp car. Something that is amazing compared to road hyper cars but compared to say F1? Where they not only have the horsepower but also the lightweight? (1000 hp 1-2 ton car)

Sure, GTs and other formula vehicles are powerful but not as powerful as the top tier ones. But let's bring this apples to apples:

The Hyugas are F1 cars that are restricted to 800hp compared to the rest of the other F1 cars that are restricted to 1000hp. Their association to Otsutsuki means that they are in the same league as the other Kaguya lineage family. They are greater than the other leagues as well. However, their underdevelopment never truly put them into what makes F1 vehicles F1 vehicles.



We've seen Perfect Susanoo and God Tree Summon destroy landscapes. We've seen Naruto's and Toneri's Chakra Modes obliterate landscapes. How is it that you think that the Hyugas are on par with those 3 Clans when we still haven't seen them destroy landscapes individually?

The only one I can think of that would really put Hyuga on the same level playing field as those 3 is if they have the God Palm that Kaguya used.

I see

But why should they be equal to that stuff when the reason that stuff exists goes beyond ancestral lineage.

My point is that Uchiha powers exist not because of mere Indra lineage, but because of the additional warfare between Indra and Ashura. The Hyuga don't have that ancestral hate, so they shouldn't have any powers to match them. The Hyuga are actually stronger than Uchiha because average Uchiha (no eyes, sometimes 3T) is far weaker than average Hyuga (always has Byakugan, wanted internationally). So you should be comparing average Hyuga to the no name Uchiha and Senju, not to guys like Hashirama and Madara who have the ancestral boost.

I could pick points, but that general issue is the major one, i think. You're not wrong in saying that Hyuga apples are smaller than the branches that are Hashirama and Madara, you're simply mistaken in thinking a mere fruit should be equal to an entire branch.

 

[minamoto]

If we use that example, then yes. The power scaling isn't based on skills but rather the power/arsenal available. Think of this for example: Kaguya and Momoshiki
Kaguya and Momoshiki attained the ultimate being and yet, due to their inexperience of many years of wars, their advantage of strength and plethora of arsenals are wasted and they were able to be overcome by sneak attacks.

However, give the same powers to say Madara or Isshiki (people with years and years of experience fighting) then you have yourself a real boss fight.



It is pathetic considering that the single eye technique, mokuton, fuinjutsu/chakra chain are not gonna be a powerful threat to say a Perfect Susanoo, Sage Mode buffed God Tree summons, blitzing Chakra Mode.

If we take things into racing again, this is like having a GT 4 ton 600 hp car. Something that is amazing compared to road hyper cars but compared to say F1? Where they not only have the horsepower but also the lightweight? (1000 hp 1-2 ton car)

Sure, GTs and other formula vehicles are powerful but not as powerful as the top tier ones. But let's bring this apples to apples:

The Hyugas are F1 cars that are restricted to 800hp compared to the rest of the other F1 cars that are restricted to 1000hp. Their association to Otsutsuki means that they are in the same league as the other Kaguya lineage family. They are greater than the other leagues as well. However, their underdevelopment never truly put them into what makes F1 vehicles F1 vehicles.



We've seen Perfect Susanoo and God Tree Summon destroy landscapes. We've seen Naruto's and Toneri's Chakra Modes obliterate landscapes. How is it that you think that the Hyugas are on par with those 3 Clans when we still haven't seen them destroy landscapes individually?

The only one I can think of that would really put Hyuga on the same level playing field as those 3 is if they have the God Palm that Kaguya used.


3 Clan power scaling. PS, GT SM, KCM... no Hyugas (not even in The Last)

Lack of. The hype stems from the Hyuga being Otsutsuki. Yet their shown peak of power is Air Palm: an equivalent of 1 eye Mangekyu techique (where the other 2 clans are on par with the Uchiha's Perfect Susanoo power).



No clue what you mean by this? I've already stated that Hyuga are underdeveloped due to the scaling of the other 3 and the Hyuga's ties to the Otsutsuki Clan. As well as having a dedicated movie that directly involves the Hyuga Clan and yet they still somehow were overshadowed and weren't developed further

Have ever read book titlet : A Yet Untitled Work????..

 

[wanderingcactus]

My point is that Uchiha powers exist not because of mere Indra lineage, but because of the additional warfare between Indra and Ashura. The Hyuga don't have that ancestral hate, so they shouldn't have any powers to match them. The Hyuga are actually stronger than Uchiha because average Uchiha (no eyes, sometimes 3T) is far weaker than average Hyuga (always has Byakugan, wanted internationally).

yes, you are addressing experiences not arsenals. The Hyugas are overall more powerful in smaller scale but they do have potential for bigger scale as well.

You are saying is that it is due to their inexperience for not participating in wars that they fall behind. While that is true that they are underdevelop in warfare, it does not negate the fact that they are lacking weaponry.

This goes for the example of the Uzumakis. They didn't participate with the ancestral war and yet because of their power, they were feared and were annihilated. So how come the Hyuga were not on the same boat? As you have said, the Hyugas are overall more powerful than the Uchihas as they have to go through the whole Sharingan awakening and as well as the scaling is harder.

Yet the Hyugas remained safe and untouched? It is merely that they had their own share of warfare. To the point that it was necessary for them to make the branch family their soldiers and give them a seal so that they cannot turn on the main family (they even went to war with themselves at one point).

So they aren't completely removed from war. Although that is besides the point.

So you should be comparing average Hyuga to the no name Uchiha and Senju, not to guys like Hashirama and Madara who have the ancestral boost.

What? I think you missed the point entirely.
The point is that the ENTIRE clans are powerful. They have inherit powers. Like Mangekyu isn't just for Indra transmigrants.
You have Itachi, Obito, Shisui and Shin and probably many others outside of Madara and Sasuke of obtaining the Mangekyu while not being transmigrants.

Can't say much for Senju as they've died and Tsunade weren't able to learn about the Sage Mode from Hashirama so she made a similar technique.

As for the Uzumaki, there were special people within that clan that had the chakra chains. Yet they do not need to be transmigrants. They ended up being Jins though because of it.

Again, you are stuck on the whole aspect of "transmigrant wars" and being a transmigrant of Indra and Asura yet you completely ignore the fact that there are many examples of people attaining the same level of powers without being a transmigrant.

Obito and Itachi with Susanoo. Kushina and Karin with chakra chains. Toneri with Chakra Mode and Tenseigan.

You're not wrong in saying that Hyuga apples are smaller than the branches that are Hashirama and Madara, you're simply mistaken in thinking a mere fruit should be equal to an entire branch.

Your analogy isn't applicable here. I get what you are saying that Indra and Asura are special. But they are not the deciding factors of who gets what power. The Otsutsuki bloodline does.

You are treating the clan as apples and the transmigrants as branches when you should be treating the clans as the roots and trunk (the entire tree, the Kaguya family tree to be exact). The highest point of the tree is still the tree itself, not the branch as the branch is still part of the tree, not the leaves as leaves are still part of the tree, not the fruits as the fruits are still part of the tree.

Yes, not all of the tree can be the highest part but the fact that remains is that it is all the same part of the tree. Yet, Hyugas are considered a separate and a shorter tree. This is what I am getting at.

You are simply stuck at the Indra Asura aspect when they are not even required. It is merely that it is the focus of the story, that does not mean they become a requirement.

Post automatically merged: Sep 25, 2020

Have ever read book titlet : A Yet Untitled Work????..

As you can already tell that I am illiterate, no. I have not read it. What is it about?