Tobirama's biggest screw up..

Claymantan

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I don't see how you expect Tobirama to know how monumentally incompetent Hiruzen and Danzo would have been like thirty years later XD

They were teens when he died, and it was an improvised situation

Say what you will, but Tobirama's system would have been completely fine if not for Danzo and Hiruzen being total idiots. In fact, there's no reason that the Uchiha couldn't have been included in Konoha's political system (whatever the **** that is XD) during Hiruzen's reign. During Tobirama's time, he was busy actually building Konoha as an institution and didn't need Uchiha's second-guessing all the things he put into place that are basically why peace exists in Naruto's time (all the international moments are basically thanks to Tobirama's institutions, like the Chuunin Exams).

Don't hate on Tobirama just because nobody else could live up to the only character in the entire manga with a brain XD
 

0jordinio0

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Fugaku as Hokage? No, just no.

Him being a candidate and having a Mangekyou is not a manga fact, it's filler. Fugaku is, and will always be to me a simple cannon fodder traitor.
 

shelke

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The guy literally did all he could to go behind the agreed-upon precepts of the treaty. He cornered a clan. Never embraced peace. His political system was imitated by all villages and resulted in a strong but corrupt nexus of power. He is responsible for this faulty infrastructure.
 

KingHashirama

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The guy literally did all he could to go behind the agreed-upon precepts of the treaty. He cornered a clan. Never embraced peace. His political system was imitated by all villages and resulted in a strong but corrupt nexus of power. He is responsible for this faulty infrastructure.
I personally don't see the flaw in the infrastructure, but the flaw in the ones who ended up running it after he died. Which he didn't make sure, were checked, despite him wanting to keep the Uchiha in check.

Fugaku as Hokage? No, just no.

Him being a candidate and having a Mangekyou is not a manga fact, it's filler. Fugaku is, and will always be to me a simple cannon fodder traitor.

Fugaku was never a candidate, which was a problem for some, as he had some big achievements which got overshadowed by Minato because of the konoha council or something like that.. and its from the novel not a filler.

And traitor to what?? didn't know people trying to change their village/country were considered traitors.
 

leezagboola

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The uchiha wanted absolute power not just to have one member on the council. Tobirama gave them the konoha police force and let them have complete control over it but they still werent happy. They probably would have asked for another council member to be uchiha or all council members. They felt like they should be equal to the Senju still in power and wouldnt have been happy until they had control.

Sides how was tobirama ment to know that 50 years after his death they would revolt? The person to blame for the uchiha massacre is Hiruzen who accept Danzo being evil, accepted the uchiha revolting and was fine to let itachi carry the entire blame and kill everyone as well as not stopping orochimaru. Tobirama did the best he could. Hiruzen was the one who just gave up as the laziest hokage.
 

KingHashirama

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I don't see how you expect Tobirama to know how monumentally incompetent Hiruzen and Danzo would have been like thirty years later XD

They were teens when he died, and it was an improvised situation

Say what you will, but Tobirama's system would have been completely fine if not for Danzo and Hiruzen being total idiots. In fact, there's no reason that the Uchiha couldn't have been included in Konoha's political system (whatever the **** that is XD) during Hiruzen's reign. During Tobirama's time, he was busy actually building Konoha as an institution and didn't need Uchiha's second-guessing all the things he put into place that are basically why peace exists in Naruto's time (all the international moments are basically thanks to Tobirama's institutions, like the Chuunin Exams).

Don't hate on Tobirama just because nobody else could live up to the only character in the entire manga with a brain XD

Well , except I'm not hating on him.. lol. However, when you are too cautious of others, and not the ones around you.. you're setting yourself up for failure... and which is what ended up happening.

And most of the infrastructure that Tobirama made, comes from his big brother. :x. He simply was the one who implanted them and made them into a reality, due to his brother passing away.

The Academy = Hashirama's idea since he was a kid.

And in fact I agree, if they had picked somebody else as Hokage after Minato, or instead of Minato, the village would've done better.

The uchiha wanted absolute power not just to have one member on the council. Tobirama gave them the konoha police force and let them have complete control over it but they still werent happy. They probably would have asked for another council member to be uchiha or all council members. They felt like they should be equal to the Senju still in power and wouldnt have been happy until they had control.

Sides how was tobirama ment to know that 50 years after his death they would revolt? The person to blame for the uchiha massacre is Hiruzen who accept Danzo being evil, accepted the uchiha revolting and was fine to let itachi carry the entire blame and kill everyone as well as not stopping orochimaru. Tobirama did the best he could. Hiruzen was the one who just gave up as the laziest hokage.
Absolute control over what?? THey didn't have any political power.. as far as Konoha's government. I'm pretty sure one council member on Konoha's council would've been enough to call Danzo/Hiruzen out on their bullshit. Which would've led to reforms. They wanted their right, I haven't read anything about them wanting full control.

I don't blame Tobirama for the massacre. I'm simply saying his biggest screw up, is his trust in the Danzo/Hiruzen.. and not being cautious of them in case they didn't turn out good, considering they were in their teens at the time.. even though he was cautious of an entire clan.
 
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Chie

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I gave up on the canon/non-canon stuff mate (but we can discuss solely the manga if you want). Anime/manga/novels, same shit to me now. (also aren't the novels illustrated by Kishi?)

Coup reasons from how i see it:


- their Kids being bullied at school.
- you're forced to be a "pro-senju" (even though senju clan didn't even exist).
- Uchiha get ordered to not help, but then also have to take the blame for not helping??
- Put in a certain corner of a village, because the attacker could've been an uchiha.. but its fine when the Hokage's student experiments on the villagers.. and the hokage lets him walk right past him.
- founders of the village, yet no political power at all.
- Corrupted Konoha council, who threw away everything Hashirama made the village for.

-Their kids were not bullied in school as if this were the case, then Sasuke would not have been so revered. According to the novels, Itachi was revered at school along with other Uchiha as well. The bullying problem was an isolated incident where he was being attacked because he was the top of the Academy at age 6 which unnerved some 12 yr olds and this was further heightened when one of the 12 yr olds who had his mother get crushed under a building in front of him during the attack & upset a killer was never punished/found realized Itachi was an Uchiha. However, his lineage was not the main factor by any means, it just served to fuel it which is understandable given the 12 yr old and co. were upset at losing their loved one w/o anyone/anything to turn to.

-The Senju DO still exist, but yes they are no longer a cohesive clan. They gradually watered down by marrying into other ones. But Senju way of thinking? What is the Senju way of thinking? Protect the village... this is the way of all cooperative clans.

-They were blamed because everyone was 100% sure in the end that a sharingan user did it and the clan would contain the only user they knew of. The Uchiha also did not try to clear their names nor did they object regarding the Kyuubi attack suspicions, so it heightened things.

-Yes, and they also received housing before the majority of Konoha citizens because of how people revered their abilities. Old women, little girls and boys, etc- many were homeless for a long while with their businesses destroyed and yet the Uchiha clan received more than adequate housing while they did not.

-And yet when Hiruzen suggested for Itachi to be made Hokage in the novels, the clan hated this idea. And while Fugaku knew Itachi could have fixed everything in a short amount of time during his reign since the kid cared for both sides, he didn't stick up for him in front of his clan.

-They literally kept the same system which Hashirama/Tobirama established.

I'm sorry, but all validity for the Uchiha's "plight" went out the window the moment they rejected the idea of peacefully changing Konoha or talking with Hiruzen. It would have been far more understandable had they accepted peace talks and had they been double-crossed then did what they did... but nope, that was not the case. It lost even more merit when Fugaku believed his son being Hokage would fix everything in a few years and that he was just going with the coup to please his clan & to avoid them attacking/killing him.

I don't see how you expect Tobirama to know how monumentally incompetent Hiruzen and Danzo would have been like thirty years later XD

They were teens when he died, and it was an improvised situation

Say what you will, but Tobirama's system would have been completely fine if not for Danzo and Hiruzen being total idiots. In fact, there's no reason that the Uchiha couldn't have been included in Konoha's political system (whatever the **** that is XD) during Hiruzen's reign. During Tobirama's time, he was busy actually building Konoha as an institution and didn't need Uchiha's second-guessing all the things he put into place that are basically why peace exists in Naruto's time (all the international moments are basically thanks to Tobirama's institutions, like the Chuunin Exams).

Don't hate on Tobirama just because nobody else could live up to the only character in the entire manga with a brain XD

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Claymantan

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Well , except I'm not hating on him.. lol. However, when you are too cautious of others, and not the ones around you.. you're setting yourself up for failure... and which is what ended up happening.

And most of the infrastructure that Tobirama made, comes from his big brother. :x. He simply was the one who implanted them and made them into a reality, due to his brother passing away.

The Academy = Hashirama's idea since he was a kid.

And in fact I agree, if they had picked somebody else as Hokage after Minato, or instead of Minato, the village would've done better.

Nobody around Tobirama was a threat except for the Uchihas. Danzo didn't become a power-hungry idiot until after Tobirama died. And you're underplaying how much the Uchiha would probably have impeded Tobirama's institutions. They're stated to be clan-centric in the manga itself; Tobirama is canonically a follower of the Will of Fire. He wouldn't have been persecuting the Uchihas at all if A) They were amenable to simply following the village system (they resisted it) and B) They had been democratically elected.

You're overestimating Hashirama. He wanted to make Madara Hokage without anyone else's assent; Tobirama made him Hokage democratically. Wars emerged before Tobirama was ever Hokage; they happened under Hashirama's reign. Tobirama just continued his leadership and in the midst of wars created the institutions that made Konohagakure what it is. Tobirama's leadership was actually excellent, all circumstances considered.

And basic nation-running: Don't create a situation where people will be second-guessing your power during wartime.
 

KingHashirama

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Nobody around Tobirama was a threat except for the Uchihas. Danzo didn't become a power-hungry idiot until after Tobirama died. And you're underplaying how much the Uchiha would probably have impeded Tobirama's institutions. They're stated to be clan-centric in the manga itself; Tobirama is canonically a follower of the Will of Fire. He wouldn't have been persecuting the Uchihas at all if A) They were amenable to simply following the village system (they resisted it) and B) They had been democratically elected.

You're overestimating Hashirama. He wanted to make Madara Hokage without anyone else's assent; Tobirama made him Hokage democratically. Wars emerged before Tobirama was ever Hokage; they happened under Hashirama's reign. Tobirama just continued his leadership and in the midst of wars created the institutions that made Konohagakure what it is. Tobirama's leadership was actually excellent, all circumstances considered.

And basic nation-running: Don't create a situation where people will be second-guessing your power during wartime.

So what was Tobirama's plan to counter, if a teenage Hiruzen and teenage Danzo, went rogue after he died?? nothing.

So where did i question whether tobirama was a good or bad leader. All Leaders have flaws.
 

Claymantan

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So what was Tobirama's plan to counter, if a teenage Hiruzen and teenage Danzo, went rogue after he died?? nothing.

So where did i question whether tobirama was a good or bad leader. All Leaders have flaws.

What was he supposed to do tho?

Like I said, there was no reason to lift persecution from the Uchihas. They wanted to maintain their autonomy and resisted the village system; Tobirama responded by giving them a role in the village that would let them maintain some autonomy without disrupting the village's functions. During a period of international wars.

As far as we know there weren't other candidates. Tobirama was on his own and had to make a split second decision. We don't know of any other characters from Tobirama's generation that he could have groomed as advisors or replacements in their stead.

Literally, Tobirama did the best possible with what he had.

Yeah, his decision to persecute the Uchihas was flawed, and I mean, okay, it's his "biggest" flaw as a leader, but I don't think anyone could have done better. Hashirama was more forgiving, but this was also painted as a fault (he would have given the Uchihas the village if he believed it would have meant peace, which was very shortsighted considering that the village evidently wasn't warmed up to the Uchihas; he would have given the other villages the Bijuu for free, which was a bad idea evidently since the villages soon ended up warring again in spite of his working for peace).

I don't think there was a right decision for Tobirama to make.
 

shelke

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The uchiha wanted absolute power not just to have one member on the council. Tobirama gave them the konoha police force and let them have complete control over it but they still werent happy. They probably would have asked for another council member to be uchiha or all council members. They felt like they should be equal to the Senju still in power and wouldnt have been happy until they had control.

Sides how was tobirama ment to know that 50 years after his death they would revolt? The person to blame for the uchiha massacre is Hiruzen who accept Danzo being evil, accepted the uchiha revolting and was fine to let itachi carry the entire blame and kill everyone as well as not stopping orochimaru. Tobirama did the best he could. Hiruzen was the one who just gave up as the laziest hokage.

This is nothing but fiction.
 

KingHashirama

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-Their kids were not bullied in school as if this were the case, then Sasuke would not have been so revered. According to the novels, Itachi was revered at school along with other Uchiha as well. The bullying problem was an isolated incident where he was being attacked because he was the top of the Academy at age 6 which unnerved some 12 yr olds and this was further heightened when one of the 12 yr olds who had his mother get crushed under a building in front of him during the attack & upset a killer was never punished/found realized Itachi was an Uchiha. However, his lineage was not the main factor by any means, it just served to fuel it which is understandable given the 12 yr old and co. were upset at losing their loved one w/o anyone/anything to turn to.

-The Senju DO still exist, but yes they are no longer a cohesive clan. They gradually watered down by marrying into other ones. But Senju way of thinking? What is the Senju way of thinking? Protect the village... this is the way of all cooperative clans.

-They were blamed because everyone was 100% sure in the end that a sharingan user did it and the clan would contain the only user they knew of. The Uchiha also did not try to clear their names nor did they object regarding the Kyuubi attack suspicions, so it heightened things.

-Yes, and they also received housing before the majority of Konoha citizens because of how people revered their abilities. Old women, little girls and boys, etc- many were homeless for a long while with their businesses destroyed and yet the Uchiha clan received more than adequate housing while they did not.

-And yet when Hiruzen suggested for Itachi to be made Hokage in the novels, the clan hated this idea. And while Fugaku knew Itachi could have fixed everything in a short amount of time during his reign since the kid cared for both sides, he didn't stick up for him in front of his clan.

-They literally kept the same system which Hashirama/Tobirama established.

I'm sorry, but all validity for the Uchiha's "plight" went out the window the moment they rejected the idea of peacefully changing Konoha or talking with Hiruzen. It would have been far more understandable had they accepted peace talks and had they been double-crossed then did what they did... but nope, that was not the case. It lost even more merit when Fugaku believed his son being Hokage would fix everything in a few years and that he was just going with the coup to please his clan & to avoid them attacking/killing him.

- An isolated bullying, that occured to an uchiha who rising through the ranks.. isolated bullying, that would've happened to other kids if they were rising through the ranks. Clearly they weren't revered in the school in the eyes of those kids. And 12 years old is about when kids startin getting the grown up mentality. "His lineage was not the main factor".. but it was a factor.

- I said the clan did not exist. There was no more "senju". And the will of the Senju was aka Hashirama's will of fire (not the entire clan's).. which was protect the village and its people.

- The uchiha were blamed by the villagers, because they did not participated in the war due to the orders of the Konoha government. And then the attacker possibly being a Sharingan user, even put more fuel on the fire. To which only the Uchiha clan took blame.. had the Konoha government let the Uchiha fight, the issue never would've became that big.

- Yes, and this also makes the divide between the uchiha and the rest even bigger.. a divide that had already been started with the result of the Konoha Government.

- Because Fugaku was smart enough to know, that it would simply come off as Fugaku making a deal with the villagers, and making his son Hokage. The only reasonable way it would've worked out is if it was Fugaku becoming Hokage.

- They literally kept the same system.. is that a joke?? lol.. You had a 10 year old Anbu.. you had 13 year olds who weren't even trained as elite fighters, going out in war.. you had a hokage letting criminals walk right past him.. you had a person who commited treason multiple times on the council.. you had a hokage who couldn't even work things with his own people until it was too late.. You had the government separating people and segregating them due to their suspicion... Same systemm?? I don't think so. Oh did i forget, killing their own villagers so others wouldn't declare war on them.. right.


Hiruzen could've just resigned as Hokage at that very moment.. and bam coup is pervented. Right, can't let go of power though.

What was he supposed to do tho?

Like I said, there was no reason to lift persecution from the Uchihas. They wanted to maintain their autonomy and resisted the village system; Tobirama responded by giving them a role in the village that would let them maintain some autonomy without disrupting the village's functions. During a period of international wars.

As far as we know there weren't other candidates. Tobirama was on his own and had to make a split second decision. We don't know of any other characters from Tobirama's generation that he could have groomed as advisors or replacements in their stead.

Literally, Tobirama did the best possible with what he had.

Yeah, his decision to persecute the Uchihas was flawed, and I mean, okay, it's his "biggest" flaw as a leader, but I don't think anyone could have done better. Hashirama was more forgiving, but this was also painted as a fault (he would have given the Uchihas the village if he believed it would have meant peace, which was very shortsighted considering that the village evidently wasn't warmed up to the Uchihas; he would have given the other villages the Bijuu for free, which was a bad idea evidently since the villages soon ended up warring again in spite of his working for peace).

I don't think there was a right decision for Tobirama to make.

1. What village system did they resist?? The one that treated everyone equally, or the one that segregated them??

2. The period of international wars, continued all the way to Pain invasion.. so thats not really a justifiable reason to kill an entire group of people.

3. No he did not do the best he possibly could.. lol. Separating the uchiha into some sort of a special police, is actually one of his other mistakes.. You don't make your police based on 1 group of people. The purpose of the village was to mix the clans.. not separate them. Also, police are not political figures, but mere servants of the people.

4. Hashirama would've gave Uchiha the village?? No he wouldn't have.. because the Uchiha would've never wanted the village if Hashirama was running things. Hell Madara even fought Hashirama, because of Tobirama... not because of Hashirama's failure as a leader.. rofl. Giving the bijuu out for free was a joke dude.. comedy relief moment.. unless you believe Tobirama had more power over the Hokage, lol.

5. From his conversation with Hiruzen/Danzo, i think its clear he was looking for those 2 to lead the village.
 
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shelke

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Well Hiruzen is probably the laziest Hokage

I wouldn't call him lazy: he's just as nice a leader as Danzo is. Didn't this guy give the head of an innocent man?
 

Chie

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- An isolated bullying, that occured to an uchiha who rising through the ranks.. isolated bullying, that would've happened to other kids if they were rising through the ranks. Clearly they weren't revered in the school in the eyes of those kids. And 12 years old is about when kids startin getting the grown up mentality. "His lineage was not the main factor".. but it was a factor.

- I said the clan did not exist. There was no more "senju". And the will of the Senju was aka Hashirama's will of fire (not the entire clan's).. which was protect the village and its people.

- The uchiha were blamed by the villagers, because they did not participated in the war due to the orders of the Konoha government. And then the attacker possibly being a Sharingan user, even put more fuel on the fire. To which only the Uchiha clan took blame.. had the Konoha government let the Uchiha fight, the issue never would've became that big.

- Yes, and this also makes the divide between the uchiha and the rest even bigger.. a divide that had already been started with the result of the Konoha Government.

- Because Fugaku was smart enough to know, that it would simply come off as Fugaku making a deal with the villagers, and making his son Hokage. The only reasonable way it would've worked out is if it was Fugaku becoming Hokage.

- They literally kept the same system.. is that a joke?? lol.. You had a 10 year old Anbu.. you had 13 year olds who weren't even trained as elite fighters, going out in war.. you had a hokage letting criminals walk right past him.. you had a person who commited treason multiple times on the council.. you had a hokage who couldn't even work things with his own people until it was too late.. You had the government separating people and segregating them due to their suspicion... Same systemm?? I don't think so. Oh did i forget, killing their own villagers so others wouldn't declare war on them.. right.


Hiruzen could've just resigned as Hokage at that very moment.. and bam coup is pervented. Right, can't let go of power though.

-It's stated he's revered, just because 3 kids who attacked him once felt that way doesn't mean they all did. Also, the main bully later becomes his friend in a sense (the one Obito kills which leads to him awakening 3-tomoe).

-Okay.

-People in Konoha were dense enough to believe that the Uchiha would attack their own village... when the Uchiha still lived throughout the village. I doubt letting them fight would change much as people would still collectively accuse the clan since only a sharingan user could control Kurama.

-I agree with this.

- Yes, but the problem is Hiruzen doesn't know if he should trust Fugaku at this point or not after all that has been done to the Uchiha, so he doesn't offer the position to him.

-Alright, alright. I concede. xD

I'm sorry, I was indeed oversimplifying things. U_U
 

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I agree. In my opinion, Hiruzen is the worst Hokage of all time.
 
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