Tobirama's biggest screw up..

[KingHashirama]

Not putting atleast one young Uchiha into the Konoha politics, but expecting things to be alright, when the clans who joined later get more political power than a founder clan. This to me was his main screw up before leaving.

He was too cautious of the Uchiha, but not of his own underlings, who pretty much drove the Konoha into one of the worst political scenarios seen in the manga. Now don't get me wrong, Hiruzen's first reign as the Hokage, with the title God of Shinobi, was good. However, the issue is his reign after Minato.

Everything that went wrong:

- The Uchiha are discriminated against, despite being a founding clan of the village.
- The man let Danzo live.. this is pretty much the cause of all problems that Konoha suffered at that time..
- Orochimaru, experiments on villagers.. walks away right in front of his eyes.

Why in the blue hell was Danzo still alive and on the Konoha council?? The man allied himself with Hanzo, who was an enemy of the leaf..and then he was also contacting with Orochimaru.. He also then allied with Obito, the man behind Konoha's attack.. "But he did it for the village"..Hitler said the samething for the holocaust "for a better Germany".


Hashirama: Make the village so kids won't be put into war.

Hiruzen/Danzo reign: Shove 7-13 year olds in war, and then have a little kid kill his entire clan.

___________________________________
___________________________________
Hashirama: I won't forgive anyone who messes with the village.

Hiruzen/Danzo: I will kill my own people, so others don't mess with the village.


All of this would've been prevented had Hiruzen simply appointed Fugaku uchiha as the Hokage. OR if Tobirama had took the initiative, after building all the establishments and put the uchiha into politics of the village, and gotten past his whole "cautious of the uchiha".

 

[Bimbonium]

You lost me @Fugaku Uchiha as Hokage, we don't know how powerful he was or if he loved the village and other will of fire sh*t
I agree that's Tobirama's biggest screw up

 

[BlacLord™]

Tobirama chose the most suitable candidate. How on earth could he expect the weak, cowardly Danzo to become a problem? It's true that Hiruzen didn't have Tobirama's vigour of mind and will, but with the Second Shinobi World War, he could only anticipate the whole village cooperating in a united effort.

The greatest mistake was Hiruzen leaving "the dark side" to ****zo. Tobirama kept things running as smoothly and as peacefully as could be expected under those conditions.

 

[KingHashirama]

You lost me @Fugaku Uchiha as Hokage, we don't know how powerful he was or if he loved the village and other will of fire sh*t
I agree that's Tobirama's biggest screw up

He did, since the Coup stuff was against the establishment, to change the village. And I don't blame them at all, when you have your kids being bullied in school for your people not "helping" in a fight.

And the reason why Fugaku would've been good for Hokage, and Minato serving the Naruto role (like Naruto was to Kakashi). Would've balanced out the political aggression, and would've brought in a change from the old geezers.

Because as seen in the novel, their politics started getting divided into "pro senju" or against them.

Tobirama chose the most suitable candidate. How on earth could he expect the weak, cowardly Danzo to become a problem? It's true that Hiruzen didn't have Tobirama's vigour of mind and will, but with the Second Shinobi World War, he could only anticipate the whole village cooperating in a united effort.

The greatest mistake was Hiruzen leaving "the dark side" to ****zo. Tobirama kept things running as smoothly and as peacefully as could be expected under those conditions.

He didn't have neither Hashirama or Tobirama's resolve and drive.

And i never said he picked the wrong candidate, I said he should've made a young uchiha as one of the main political people. And Danzo was clearly the number 2 guy after Hiruzen, in their generation.

 

[true enigma]

Not putting atleast one young Uchiha into the Konoha politics, but expecting things to be alright, when the clans who joined later get more political power than a founder clan. This to me was his main screw up before leaving.

He was too cautious of the Uchiha, but not of his own underlings, who pretty much drove the Konoha into one of the worst political scenarios seen in the manga. Now don't get me wrong, Hiruzen's first reign as the Hokage, with the title God of Shinobi, was good. However, the issue is his reign after Minato.

Everything that went wrong:

- The Uchiha are discriminated against, despite being a founding clan of the village.
- The man let Danzo live.. this is pretty much the cause of all problems that Konoha suffered at that time..
- Orochimaru, experiments on villagers.. walks away right in front of his eyes.

Why in the blue hell was Danzo still alive and on the Konoha council?? The man allied himself with Hanzo, who was an enemy of the leaf..and then he was also contacting with Orochimaru.. He also then allied with Obito, the man behind Konoha's attack.. "But he did it for the village"..Hitler said the samething for the holocaust "for a better Germany".


Hashirama: Make the village so kids won't be put into war.

Hiruzen/Danzo reign: Shove 7-13 year olds in war, and then have a little kid kill his entire clan.

___________________________________
___________________________________
Hashirama: I won't forgive anyone who messes with the village.

Hiruzen/Danzo: I will kill my own people, so others don't mess with the village.


All of this would've been prevented had Hiruzen simply appointed Fugaku uchiha as the Hokage. OR if Tobirama had took the initiative, after building all the establishments and put the uchiha into politics of the village, and gotten past his whole "cautious of the uchiha".

Tobirama literally was a victim of his time but literally a racist.

 

[Simbv]

Not putting atleast one young Uchiha into the Konoha politics, but expecting things to be alright, when the clans who joined later get more political power than a founder clan. This to me was his main screw up before leaving.

Understandable.

He was too cautious of the Uchiha, but not of his own underlings, who pretty much drove the Konoha into one of the worst political scenarios seen in the manga. Now don't get me wrong, Hiruzen's first reign as the Hokage, with the title God of Shinobi, was good. However, the issue is his reign after Minato.

Everything that went wrong:

- The Uchiha are discriminated against, despite being a founding clan of the village.

Even though they were discriminated against, it didn't start untill the nine tails attack which the whole village suspected was an Uchihas doing(which is was).

- The man let Danzo live.. this is pretty much the cause of all problems that Konoha suffered at that time..

How was he suspose to know that Danzo would become what he did? Danzo and Hiruzen were simple kids with a rivalry, which is normal.

- Orochimaru, experiments on villagers.. walks away right in front of his eyes.

Orochimaru's experiments were unkown, just like villagers disappearing. They didn't find out until years later after Minato was appointed Hokage that it was Orochimaru's doing. Remember when Hiruzen raided Oro's hideout and failed to kill him because of his feelings towards him? That was when they finally found out. But, Hiruzen should have killed him right there and perhaps he would have still been alive.

Why in the blue hell was Danzo still alive and on the Konoha council?? The man allied himself with Hanzo, who was an enemy of the leaf..and then he was also contacting with Orochimaru.. He also then allied with Obito, the man behind Konoha's attack.. "But he did it for the village"..Hitler said the samething for the holocaust "for a better Germany".

Danzo did all of this in the shadows.

Hashirama: Make the village so kids won't be put into war.

Hiruzen/Danzo reign: Shove 7-13 year olds in war, and then have a little kid kill his entire clan.

___________________________________
___________________________________
Hashirama: I won't forgive anyone who messes with the village.

Hiruzen/Danzo: I will kill my own people, so others don't mess with the village.


All of this would've been prevented had Hiruzen simply appointed Fugaku uchiha as the Hokage. OR if Tobirama had took the initiative, after building all the establishments and put the uchiha into politics of the village, and gotten past his whole "cautious of the uchiha".

All in all, making Fugaku Hokage wouldn't have solved anything, the Uchiha still bared the curse of hatred at that time and were destined to go a-wall at any moment. Even if the slaughtering of the whole clan could have been prevented at that moment, there was no telling what would happen at a later point, which is what Danzo was saying.

Not saying it couldn't have went down differently but, the Uchiha caused their own downfall.

 

[KingHashirama]

Understandable.


Even though they were discriminated agaisnt, it was only because of the nine tails attack which the whole village suspected was an Uchihas doing(which is was).

The whole village suspected it was the Uchiha, because they didn't participate in defending the village, on the orders of the Konoha government..

How was he suspose to know that Danzo would become what he did? Danzo and Hiruzen were simple kids with a rivalry, which is normal.

I never said he was supposed to know. I said "cautious". Those who are cautious of others and not of those around them, usually end up messing in this way.

Orochimaru's experiments were unkown, just like villagers disappearing. They didn't find out until years later after Minato was appointed Hokage that it was Orochimaru's doing. Remember when Hiruzen raided Oro's hideout and failed to kill him because of his feelings towards him? That was when they finally found out.

And that goes to what I said... lol. Hiruzen let Orochimaru walk away. His feelings for his students, surpassed his feelings for the love of the villagers. Now if it was Hashirama.. or Tobirama.. r.i.p Orochimaru

Danzo did all of this in the shadows.

On Hiruzen's allowance. Read what he says when hes returned, how he let Danzo handle the "shadows" and etc.

All in all, making Fugaku wouldn't have solved anything, the Uchiha still beared the curse of hatred at that time and were destined to go a wall at any moments. Even if the slaughering of the whole clan could have been prevented at that moment, there was no telling what would happen at a later point, which is what Danzo was saying.

Not saying it could have went down differently but, the Uchiha caused their own downfall.

And this is where I disagree. Curse of Hatred, isn't limited to the Uchiha. Danzo had it, Orochimaru had it, Nagato had it, Kakuzu had it, Raikage had it, Onoki had it.. list keeps going on and on. Curse of hatred is a widespread theme of the entire manga. Naruto would've been trapped into the curse of hatred as well, if he had killed Nagato.

And reread what Danzo said, "Whether there is a civil war or not, the Uchiha clan will be wiped out once the revolution starts". <<< That my friend, isn't a threat made because hes scared of a civil war.. that is a threat made because hes scared of somebody else getting in the way of his path to Hokage.


- Didn't help Tsunade.. why?? So he could become Hokage

- Allied with Hanzo to take out hiruzen.. why?? so he could become hokage

- Allied with Obito to take out the uchiha.. why?? so he could become Hokage

The man was clearly a power hungry maniac.

 

[Bimbonium]

And the reason why Fugaku would've been good for Hokage, and Minato serving the Naruto role (like Naruto was to Kakashi). Would've balanced out the political aggression, and would've brought in a change from the old geezers.

Because as seen in the novel, their politics started getting divided into "pro senju" or against them.

That's a viable option, but chances are people will still complain of him being a figurehead if that happens.

Also the novel isn't canon, tho I admit the politics could have played out that way.
There was more to the coup than just that tho

 

[KingHashirama]

That's a viable option, but chances are people will still complain of him being a figurehead if that happens.

Also the novel isn't canon, tho I admit the politics could have played out that way.
There was more to the coup than just that tho

I gave up on the canon/non-canon stuff mate (but we can discuss solely the manga if you want). Anime/manga/novels, same shit to me now. (also aren't the novels illustrated by Kishi?)

Coup reasons from how i see it:

- their Kids being bullied at school.
- you're forced to be a "pro-senju" (even though senju clan didn't even exist).
- Uchiha get ordered to not help, but then also have to take the blame for not helping??
- Put in a certain corner of a village, because the attacker could've been an uchiha.. but its fine when the Hokage's student experiments on the villagers.. and the hokage lets him walk right past him.
- founders of the village, yet no political power at all.
- Corrupted Konoha council, who threw away everything Hashirama made the village for.

 

[SenseiSama]

Obito was gonna succeed Minato but he died too early, so did Kagame and Shisui, and Itachi would have been fit to be one if he wasn't manipulated by his superiors. Danzo actually screwed everything up.

 

[KingHashirama]

Obito was gonna succeed Minato but he died too early, so did Kagame and Shisui, and Itachi would have been fit to be one if he wasn't manipulated by his superiors. Danzo actually screwed everything up.

Itachi would've been a good choice for Hokage, I agree. I'm still not getting how the students of Tobirama and Hashirama allowed little kids to go into war.

 

[Simbv]

Itachi would've been a good choice for Hokage, I agree. I'm still not getting how the students of Tobirama and Hashirama allowed little kids to go into war.

Shortage of capable Ninja. I wish i could find the scan that stated this.

I gave up on the canon/non-canon stuff mate (but we can discuss solely the manga if you want). Anime/manga/novels, same shit to me now. (also aren't the novels illustrated by Kishi?)

Coup reasons from how i see it:

- their Kids being bullied at school.

This definitely isn't one of them. Uchiha were treated like demi-gods because most were naturally talented.

 

[Bimbonium]

I gave up on the canon/non-canon stuff mate (but we can discuss solely the manga if you want). Anime/manga/novels, same shit to me now. (also aren't the novels illustrated by Kishi?)

Coup reasons from how i see it:

- their Kids being bullied at school.
- you're forced to be a "pro-senju" (even though senju clan didn't even exist).
- Uchiha get ordered to not help, but then also have to take the blame for not helping??
- Put in a certain corner of a village, because the attacker could've been an uchiha.. but its fine when the Hokage's student experiments on the villagers.. and the hokage lets him walk right past him.
- founders of the village, yet no political power at all.
- Corrupted Konoha council, who threw away everything Hashirama made the village for.

The novels aren't illustrated by Kishi (to the best of my knowledge, I did not read any tho)

- Put in a certain corner of a village, because the attacker could've been an uchiha..
- founders of the village, yet no political power at all.

Those are the only two canonical reasons in the list,
Normally, that's enough to cause a coup, but since the manga did not give enough info about the coup I believe they had other grievances

 

[KingHashirama]

Shortage of capable Ninja. I wish i could find the scan that stated this.


This definitely isn't one of them. Uchiha were treated like demi-gods because most were naturally talented.

Going by Itachi's novel, that is not the case.

 

[Simbv]

Going by Itachi's novel, that is not the case.

I'm going to have to read Itachi's novel then. Are the novels canon?


And btw i think you have the 2nd Ninja War and the 3rd Ninja war mixed up.

The 3rd ninja war was the war that threw very young shinobi who were fresh out of the academy into battle.

 

[Simbv]

And this is where I disagree. Curse of Hatred, isn't limited to the Uchiha. Danzo had it, Orochimaru had it, Nagato had it, Kakuzu had it, Raikage had it, Onoki had it.. list keeps going on and on. Curse of hatred is a widespread theme of the entire manga. Naruto would've been trapped into the curse of hatred as well, if he had killed Nagato.

And reread what Danzo said, "Whether there is a civil war or not, the Uchiha clan will be wiped out once the revolution starts". <<< That my friend, isn't a threat made because hes scared of a civil war.. that is a threat made because hes scared of somebody else getting in the way of his path to Hokage.


- Didn't help Tsunade.. why?? So he could become Hokage

- Allied with Hanzo to take out hiruzen.. why?? so he could become hokage

- Allied with Obito to take out the uchiha.. why?? so he could become Hokage

The man was clearly a power hungry maniac.

I would have to disagree. What you are describing is just typical human behavior. The Curse Of Hatred was stated to be exclusive only to the Uchiha.

 

[KingHashirama]

The novels aren't illustrated by Kishi (to the best of my knowledge, I did not read any tho)

- Put in a certain corner of a village, because the attacker could've been an uchiha..
- founders of the village, yet no political power at all.

Those are the only two canonical reasons in the list,
Normally, that's enough to cause a coup, but since the manga did not give enough info about the coup I believe they had other grievances

So they're selling the novels with Masashi Kishimoto as the creator, and then under his name is the actual writers name. So I assume its more like how DC/Marvel do their stuff. The companies approve the writers. So its certainly something approved by Kishimoto from how I see it.

I would have to disagree. What you are describing is just typical human behavior. The Curse Of Hatred was stated to be exclusive only to the Uchiha.

It wasn't bro lol.

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Pain is the one who went into this whole idea of "curse/chain of hatred", and how people are bound by it and so on.

I'm going to have to read Itachi's novel then. Are the novels canon?


And btw i think you have the 2nd Ninja War and the 3rd Ninja war mixed up.

The 3rd ninja war was the war that threw very young shinobi who were fresh out of the academy into battle.

Hiruzen was the Hokage for both of the wars bro. :x

Idk if they're canon or not. Asking the wrong person xD. I just like discussing interesting stuff, don't pay attention to canon or non-canon.

 

[Simbv]

So they're selling the novels with Masashi Kishimoto as the creator, and then under his name is the actual writers name. So I assume its more like how DC/Marvel do their stuff. The companies approve the writers. So its certainly something approved by Kishimoto from how I see it.

It wasn't bro lol.

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Pain is the one who went into this whole idea of "curse/chain of hatred", and how people are bound by it and so on.



Hiruzen was the Hokage for both of the wars bro. :x

Idk if they're canon or not. Asking the wrong person xD. I just like discussing interesting stuff, don't pay attention to canon or non-canon.

Curse of Hatred, Chain of Hatred. Two different things.

All the scans i could find of them talking about the "Curse Of Hatred".

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All of the times where it is brought up, and even the first time it is brought up, they are talking about Uchiha.

Tobirama and Obito both said it was exclusvie to the Uchiha clan.


This is the hate-filled destiny of the Uchiha Clan.

 

[KingHashirama]

Ahh Obito's speech to Naruto (the only scan that mentions "the curse of hatred". But now tell me this, whats the difference between curse of hatred and chain of hatred??


There are 3 Uchiha in the entire manga who went rogue.

2 of them, suffered from a severe case of manipulation, and had one of the worst childhoods in anime history.

the other one, saw war.. and decided to become a dictator because he had the power.. just like other people were trying to conquer stuff, because they had the power.


That is why I am saying, its not limited to the Uchiha.. its applied to everyone in Naruto-verse. But if you say thats normal human behavior.. so is curse of hatred.

Uchiha - lose somebody , get angry - unlock sharingan


I still to this day do not get, how the uchiha are some sort of cursed by hatred.. when there are worst people in the Naruto-verse, who would've done worst shit if they had the power that Obito/Sasuke/Madara possessed.

 

[Simbv]

Ahh Obito's speech to Naruto (the only scan that mentions "the curse of hatred". But now tell me this, whats the difference between curse of hatred and chain of hatred??


There are 3 Uchiha in the entire manga who went rogue.

2 of them, suffered from a severe case of manipulation, and had one of the worst childhoods in anime history.

the other one, saw war.. and decided to become a dictator because he had the power.. just like other people were trying to conquer stuff, because they had the power.


That is why I am saying, its not limited to the Uchiha.. its applied to everyone in Naruto-verse. But if you say thats normal human behavior.. so is curse of hatred.

Uchiha - lose somebody , get angry - unlock sharingan


I still to this day do not get, how the uchiha are some sort of cursed by hatred.. when there are worst people in the Naruto-verse, who would've done worst shit if they had the power that Obito/Sasuke/Madara possessed.

Agree to disagree.