[Discussion] Tobirama Senju & Hiruszen sarutobi (seprate talks about both ppl)

Dean-Winchester

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For the second hokage LEts talk about how we did not see much of him but he is powerfull aNd is like a water form of garaa basically
For hiruzen lets DEbate about this god of shinobi & how he could possibly comeback & also give orochimaru Rep that he is acutally really pwerfull that he actually did kill the 3rd hokage
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Tobirama was primarily known for his mastery of Water Release jutsu, being able to make use of powerful water jutsu in areas where there were no bodies of water. He could manipulate it to form projectiles or tentacles, and could even perform the Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique with only one hand seal (use of the jutsu normally requiring 44 hand seals).
In an anime filler arc, it was said that he wielded the Sword of the Thunder God, a blade with electrical abilities, and was said to have mastered its use despite the lethality. He is also shown to have great physical prowess and taijutsu skills




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Name: Sword of the Thunder God (雷神の剣, Raijin no Ken; English TV "Blade of the Thunder Spirit")
Type: Weapon
Users: Tobirama Senju, Aoi Rokusho
Debut (Anime only): Naruto Episode 105
This sword was owned by Tobirama Senju. It was stolen from Konohagakure by Idate Morino because Aoi Rokusho told him that he could become a Chunin if he managed to get the sword. Aoi then took the sword for himself until it was destroyed by the combined efforts of Team 7.
The sword glowed bright yellow and was apparently infused with pure electrical energy thus it's name. The blade was unusual in that, though it appeared to retract into or emanated from the hilt or crossguard not unlike a Lightsaber (and producing the same sound), it was apparently solid and subject to stressing and being shattered when sufficient force was applied. The forces required were extreme, however, as a weakness in the blade had to be created first with a sustained attack from Sasuke's Chidori, an extremely powerful lightning based attack itself, and then in order to actually break the sword it needed to be struck with Rasengan in the weak point that was created.
It could be speculated that this sword was extremely valuable like the Hashirama Senju's necklace, but that was not mentioned in the episodes that it appeared. It is, however, extremely valuable from a combat point of view, as Aoi claimed that the wielder of the blade was essentially invincible. However, if one relies on the sword too much, it was proven that with skill and teamwork, a Jonin wielding the sword can still be defeated by a pair of Genin, albeit they were using A-rank techniques. On the other hand, it is also possible that not being the proper owner of the blade and having had no formal training on its use, Aoi simply did not know how to use the weapon to its full potential.



Abilities

[edit]Overview
Hiruzen was, unarguably, one of the most powerful shinobi in history. In fact, he was so immensely powerful that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime. According to Iruka, he was said to be the strongest Hokage Konoha ever had. Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to withstand Orochimaru and two former Hokages. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage, and apparently had an undefeated streak, having defeated all foes that came before him until he sacrificed himself in order to stop Orochimaru.
Jutsu Master

Hiruzen was called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of jutsu, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha. The first technique he was seen using was the Telescope Technique, which allowed him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances.[6] With Roof Tile Shuriken, he could launch nearby tiles at an opponent with varying intensities, and by throwing a single shuriken at an opponent, he could replicate it to surround the opponent through Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique.

The more battle-oriented techniques he was seen using primarily consisted of elemental attacks, as he had an affinity for fire and earth. Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Missile allowed him to exhale a stream of fire from his mouth. Earth Release: Earth Flow River created a river of mud beneath the opponent to throw them off balance, and he could use the mud with Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet, which creates a dragon's head that launches mud balls at an opponent. He had also been shown to be adept in elemental collaboration jutsu, as seen when he ignited the mud ball projectiles with Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Missile. Earth Release: Earth Style Wall allowed Hiruzen to spit a stream of mud that solidifies into a protective shield.
Orochimaru showed some surprise that he didn't use the Shadow Clone Technique during their battle. An ANBU agent watching the battle scene from nearby mentioned that Hiruzen's chakra levels had dropped to a point where he couldn't use it as much. While this might contradict the large amount of techniques he used in his battle with Orochimaru, it could also show his great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.
Summoning Technique

Hiruzen also had a personal summon: Enma, the Monkey King. Enma could turn into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will. This staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice, and he showed great proficiency in wielding it.
Physical Power
Despite being a man of very accumulated age, he still was able to display considerable striking power, such as in the fight with Orochimaru, he was even able to occupy Orochimaru quite a bit just with Taijutsu.
 

Blizzard589

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What is there to discuss? lol, you've said everything there is to say...

About Sarutobi Hiruzen beating the first two Hokages, I don't think they were fighting at their full potential. I mean I understand that they were resurrected and had all their abilities at hand but Sarutobi was fighting to protect his village whereas those two became mindless instruments of Orochimaru's will after he put in the tags to supress their emotions.

So while Old Sarutobi > Mindless Hashirama+Tobirama, I think the Senju duo would be more than a match for the old man if they were allowed to fight with passion. Prime Sarutobi is a whole different story though. He'd take anyone that came before him in his village most likely. The next generation is supposed to surpass the previous afterall.
 
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What is there to discuss? lol, you've said everything there is to say...

About Sarutobi Hiruzen beating the first two Hokages, I don't think they were fighting at their full potential. I mean I understand that they were resurrected and had all their abilities at hand but Sarutobi was fighting to protect his village whereas those two became mindless instruments of Orochimaru's will after he put in the tags to supress their emotions.

So while Old Sarutobi > Mindless Hashirama+Tobirama, I think the Senju duo would be more than a match for the old man if they were allowed to fight with passion. Prime Sarutobi is a whole different story though. He'd take anyone that came before him in his village most likely. The next generation is supposed to surpass the previous afterall.
The 3rd is highly underated and i'm glad you posted this for others to see. I thought I was the only one to see that fight for what it was. A sannin and 2 not one but 2 Hokages against an extremly older 3rd hokage. Granted the Senju werent fighting with their own spirit or will of fire but were being cintrolled by Orochimaru, even still the 3rd managed to thwart any oppertunity that ORO had using multiple Jutsu and did anyone catch how @$%$$# fast his hand seals were i mean good God them shitts were fast.

We have yet to see any of his other exploits as a young Shinobi but this spectacle was enough for me to see how powerful he was. Qustion though does that make the 4th stronger than him and what about Jiraiya they were all protoge's of the 3rd Jiraiya directly trained by, and Minato had him as council and probably more
 

Blizzard589

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Yeah, the third Hokage definitely was no joke.

And I think it was that Minato was said to be the greatest Hokage, which is different from the strongest. I guess it depends on the translation but still, they only said this because he was the only one at the time in the village with a technique that could subdue the Kyuubi. And since that was the most recent tragic occurrence in the villagers' minds, they labeled Minato the greatest. But he may well have been stronger than Sarutobi. It would keep with the next gen surpassing previous theme.

One question I have though is why didn't the Sannin surpass Sarutobi, their sensei. They were strong alright but if Orochimaru was having so much trouble against Old Sarutobi, then that means he came no where close to surpassing Prime Sarutobi. Monkey King Enma suggested that Prime Sarutobi was leagues above his older counterpart. And all Jiraiya really had that put him at legenday status was Hermit Mode. I don't think he was that much stronger than Oro... and Tsunade just is a brute force med nin, no match for a real shinobi.
 
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Yeah, the third Hokage definitely was no joke.

And I think it was that Minato was said to be the greatest Hokage, which is different from the strongest. I guess it depends on the translation but still, they only said this because he was the only one at the time in the village with a technique that could subdue the Kyuubi. And since that was the most recent tragic occurrence in the villagers' minds, they labeled Minato the greatest. But he may well have been stronger than Sarutobi. It would keep with the next gen surpassing previous theme.

One question I have though is why didn't the Sannin surpass Sarutobi, their sensei. They were strong alright but if Orochimaru was having so much trouble against Old Sarutobi, then that means he came no where close to surpassing Prime Sarutobi. Monkey King Enma suggested that Prime Sarutobi was leagues above his older counterpart. And all Jiraiya really had that put him at legenday status was Hermit Mode. I don't think he was that much stronger than Oro... and Tsunade just is a brute force med nin, no match for a real shinobi.
Oh I see. You're right, being the strongest isn't the same as being the greatest. However, I also agree that it would keep to the theme of the newest generation surpassing the older generation. It wouldn't surprise me if Minato was more powerful than the 3rd. I wish we knew more about him though.

I'm not sure how to answer your question though. I think the Sannin are Kage level no doubt, but you are right that they don't seem to be as powerful as the 3rd... I'm not sure why that is. All I can say is that the theme of the newest generation surpassing the previous generation doesn't have to hold true in every circumstance.
 
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