[Spoilers] Tobirama is the root of all evil

[Heikegani]

Yeah Uchiha's are kind of brats.
If things don't go their way or how they like it, they get all hatred up, unstable and dangerous.

Tobirama is sharp and saw this. Whoever his measures did eventually turn up to influence the world to terrible results.
saying he's the root of all evil is too much though.

 

[gazz uzumaki]

I posted something similar on a different thread so I'll show you on this one too.

While don't think Tobirama is a bad person, I will admit that he is indirectly responsible for quite a few of the bad things that has happened to the Uchiha.

He caused Hashirama and Madara to become enemies by spying on them. (though he was ordered to by his father/same with Madara's brother)
He caused the death of Madara's brother, which in turn made Madara's hatred grow further. (but the two clans were at war with each other, so the blame doesn't completely fall to him)
His prejudice is what caused him to create the uchiha police force, making them think that he was showing them trust, when in fact he did so he could isolate them and keep a better eye on them. (Madara himself said the Uchiha's days would be numbered when Tobirama would become the 2nd hokage)

 

[saltal]

While don't think Tobirama is a bad person, I will admit that he is indirectly responsible for quite a few of the bad things that has happened to the Uchiha.

And here I thought that adults are responsible for their own decisions...

... spying on them... caused the death of Madara's brother...

Izuna also spied, and the death happened in a fair fight. Would it be better if Izuna killed him instead?

His prejudice is what caused him to create the uchiha police force, making them think that he was showing them trust, when in fact he did so he could isolate them and keep a better eye on them.

Since when is giving a group police responsibility a mark of mistrusting them? He was certainly suspicious, and with good reason, but he gave them a real responsibility and a very respectable post. They could have worked hard to prove themselves (just like Naruto did when faced with universal mistrust and hatred), and worked their way up to the leadership circles, instead of using this as an excuse to plot a coup.

(Madara himself said the Uchiha's days would be numbered when Tobirama would become the 2nd hokage)

and so made sure that would happen? Tobirama was not responsible in any case - blame the third hokage if you want to find fault with anyone.

Face it, Madara was nuts to start with - giving your friend an impossible choice as a test? (kill yourself or your brother), deciding this world is no fun - let's destroy it? He was clearly unfit for leadership role.
Granted, Tobirama could, and should, have shown more compassion - as a leader of the village, he should have cared for the Uchiha as well, but the decision to rebel was theirs and theirs alone.

 

[gazz uzumaki]

Izuna also spied, and the death happened in a fair fight. Would it be better if Izuna killed him instead?.

You clearly didn't read my post thoroughly. I did mention that Madara's brother also spied on them. And I never said that Tobirama's and Izuna's fight wasn't fair. I was just stating that with Izuna's death made Tobirama indirectly responsible for Madara's distrust towards the senju. I'm not saying that it's his fault.

Since when is giving a group police responsibility a mark of mistrusting them? He was certainly suspicious, and with good reason, but he gave them a real responsibility and a very respectable post. They could have worked hard to prove themselves (just like Naruto did when faced with universal mistrust and hatred), and worked their way up to the leadership circles, instead of using this as an excuse to plot a coup.

I'm not sure if I should even reply to this, you clearly aren't reading the manga properly. It's because he gave them this responsibility that they planed the coup. When he made the Uchiha a police force, it made the Uchiha clan become Isolated from the rest of the villagers. Which in turn made some of the clan, Madara sympathisers.

and so made sure that would happen? Tobirama was not responsible in any case - blame the third hokage if you want to find fault with anyone..

Madara didn't do anything to make it happen; it all began when Tobirama created the Uchiha police force. Why should blame the third hokage, he wanted to have peace talks with the Uchiha. That was Danzo's fault NOT Hiruzen's. Infact, Danzo follows similar ideals as Tobirama and look how much he screwed thing up!

Face it, Madara was nuts to start with - giving your friend an impossible choice as a test? (kill yourself or your brother), deciding this world is no fun - let's destroy it? He was clearly unfit for leadership role.
Granted, Tobirama could, and should, have shown more compassion - as a leader of the village, he should have cared for the Uchiha as well, but the decision to rebel was theirs and theirs alone.

I'm saying that he wasn't nuts, but Madara had the same ideals as Hashirama when he was young, so he wasn't always like that. And yes, the decision to rebel was the Uchiha's. But when they're ostracized from everyone else in the village, what would you expect them to do.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

The Great Fuhrer is NOT the root of all evil... that role is reserved for Justin Beiber.

 

[Penguin]

Todays manga shows us madara was good and planing to become untill tobirama spoilt if all... If i were asked i would say he was jealous of hashirama and madara

What are your thoughts.

He had the right to be cautious of Uchiha. Senju and Uchiha fought eachother for a very long time, and he knew what the Uchiha can become. He was not evil, just over-protective of Konoha.

 

[psukkar]

Let me get this straight,



Now lets recap what tobirama actually said.

1) he said the uchiha are unstable due to the way they gain powerful eyes via hatred.
2) He said the fire country knows the senju were the ones who started the peace tready with the uchiha not the other way around and therefore why would they pick madara anyway to be there leader.

Notice how the stronger clan wanted peace, while the uchiha who think they are powerful didn't think to offer a truce. That's a sign of good leader and not a noob. Historically its normally the other way around the weaker side wants a truce to avoid being wiped out. The uchiha are obviously a rare exception of noobness while the senju are a rare exception of pro.
Therefore the law of the universe pros>noobs, is still vailid here(don't worry I know kishi is a legend)

3) madara overheard all this and had a cry.

So tell me does that look like leader qualities? someone who doesn't try to change the uchiha ways to be better, but instead goes the power hungray way and embrace the evil side of the uchiha.

He also had another cry when his own clan wanted peace and wanted to stay in the village. they didn't seem to care who became hokage as long it meant their children don't die is silly wars for power.


Why would u want madara as hokage anyway?

Only reason hasihrama wanted him to go for it because he was weak and madara has a cry when hes reminded that he has no chance against hasihrama.

Tobirama just said it like it, it was not up to tobirama for madara to leave the village and rebel. WHICH is why tobirama isolated the uchiha to begin with.

So u wana point fingers, point them at madara he abandoned his clan just because he though none of them would became hokage.

And another thing who cares of the uchiha don't become the hokage, didn't madara just want peace and not just a powerful title?

Toibrama was bang on the money.

 

[narutoblitz]

NB: But muh Tobirama!

Narutobase has long had many idiotic views of characters, but I'm with OP on this one. Tobirama is a dirty little bastard.

 

[Marceant]

At least Madara wasn't butthurt like Sasuke was.

how is wanting to get revenge on the village that ordered your own brother to massacre your family/clan

butthurt

 

[Kurama999]

>Tobirama pisses off Madara

Tobirama pisses of all Uchiha. When Oro said Uchiha Sasuke.

>Madara comes back with Kyuubi and attacks Konoha

Madara use Kyuubi to fight with Hashi, not Konoha. Uchiha clan was part of Konoha.

>Causes Konoha to grow wary of the Uchiha

Nope. Danzo was the one forcing Itachi to take action.

>Uchiha are forced to outskirts of Konoha by Tobirama

Not Tobirama alone, but it was elders were the one & Danzo.

>Tobirama persecutes Uchiha

Not just Tobirama alone.

>Uchiha plan coup because they feel oppressed

Possiblity Madara was the one who started a coup.
Madara himself could enter Uchiha clan section and as he had planned this for his own.

>Itachi is ordered to wipe out the Uchiha

But Itachi also wanted to protect the Leaf Village.

>Sasuke gets pissed and dedicates his life to kill Itachi

Firstly, Sasuke action was part of Itachi's plan as he wanted Sasuke to have his eyes.
Next was wanted made Sasuke strong and by using his eyes, he could destroy Madara's plan.
Hence to protect the Konoha.

>Sasuke finds out Itachi is good and now wants to destroy Konoha

But Sasuke intelligent that he seek Oro so that he want to know the truth.

Huh, seems like we wouldn't really have much of a story without Tobirama.

Nope. Tobirama is Hishi's bro, just like Madara and his bro.
Kishi just try to match Uchiha and Senju on 2 to 2....

 

[Orochimagus]

I think you, along with the majority of people are falling for Kishimoto's mind tricks. There are two sides to every coin. What's not to say Tobirama was not being paranoid since Madara kept giving him those glares over how he killed Izuna? What is there to say that Madara was not acting to begin with? How can you claim Tobirama is evil when he died protecting his students? When he ended the old tyrannic system? When he was actually RIGHT about Madara?

Fact is, there is NO EXCUSE to Madara's evil ways. To the suffering he brought on the Mist Village. Just cause life is hard doesn't mean you have to make others pay for it like Madara did. The quality of the Shinobi shows clearly with them both. Tobirama died like a true shinobi, and Madara hid and mooched on Hashirama's DNA like a leech for the rest of his life.

 

[Almighty Ra]

I kinda agree with some of peoples theories but to be honest we have no proof to say Tobirama is evil..The guy last family which is priceless to anyone. He saw something sinister in Madara or sensed something off..could it have gone differently if people in both clan's hadn't died yes but thats the art of war everyone loses in the end.Without more solid proof of Tobirama's wrong doing or "evil" ways we can't judge

 

[Whiteknight]

Todays manga shows us madara was good and planing to become untill tobirama spoilt if all... If i were asked i would say he was jealous of hashirama and madara

What are your thoughts.

It's not jealousy, it's just mistrust. Madara does not trust/like Tobirama because Tobirama killed Izuna. At the same time Tobirama does not like Madara because they weren't friends and because Uchiha killed Tobirama's other brother. These two people only work together at all because Hashirama is the link between them. Obviously it's an uneasy relationship even with Hashirama around.