Tobirama (deidara senpai) vs 2nd Mizukage (KidGamer65)
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KidGamer65
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You can be a judge as long as you have decent knowledge on these characters cause no one wants a judge who doesn't know about what he is supposed to be judging.
deidara senpai
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Sorry I haven't been on all day this is the first post of the day lmao btw ill counter sometime later
deidara senpai
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hm hm i hope thats me
I will work on my counter now.....when im done with the Big Bang Theory (got hooked into it like 5 days ago im literally obsessed with it)
NewKageism
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deidara senpai
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But that doesnt explain that their is a jam though. Your basically indicating this is like karins jutsu where she can suppress her chakra and
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which he clearly can't the finger sense should be able to find him since he is tracking them from the ground and pinpointing their location honestly regular sensing would work. The main reason why they weren't sensing him and the clam in the beginning cause they waited for gaara to get back and sense the exact location with his sand while onoki will destroy the clam, Plus none of them could even get the time to sense out the real troll and clam,because
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They wouldnt have been able to do anything without gaara and onoki so what would be the point of trying to sense out the original location first. Plus since onoki and gaara found the clam without nidaime noticing at first why, wouldnt he have moved the clam then?So what does this mean are you agreeing with me that he can sense him out?
The mirage doesn't stop him from sensing out the him and the clam. I have showed you why the finger sensing works and even that regular sensing, thus would be able to sense the technique coming and would FTG in a second.
1. That was really just because the genjutsu just started and it basically became an illusion the moment it was summoned. Plus if it really could move. Why didn't he move it again when onoki and gaara first tracked it?
2. Already explained how he would find the troll and clam.
3.If he is able to sense the water, then why wouldnt he be able to sense whoever is touching it or on top of the water, it should honestly let him sense whatever is touching it thus leading to being able to sense the mizukages location.
That is the third way that Tobirama can sense him out.
Not if it is touching him, he should be able to sense someone else that his own chakra (infused with the water) is touching.
I was talking about FTG and already explained how he would sense him out.......3 different ways
1. Regular sensing (failing to see how even this wont be able him).
2. Finger sensing where he touches the ground and pinpoints the location.
3. The water touching the clam that he will feel something touching his own chakra.
You may pick.
If it is big enough it can break it, regardless it doesnt matter cause
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will undoubtably destroy the clam and the mizukage.Water is heavier then fire, with a massive amount of water that weighs a lot, it can indeed have enough crushing force to shatter the clam but i agree the katoon wouldn't.
He never even used it while the mirage was up he used it afterwards and thats kinda out of his character. but if you insist, ill counter either scenario how Tobirama counters Joki Boy while the mirage is out or not but honestly if he doesnt release it while the mirage is out, the second would have already died form the massive explosion
If he releases Joki Boy while the mirage is not out, this is easy for Tobirama, Joki Boy is fast but FTG can still easily dodge it and its explosion and since the mirage is not out, he unquestionably would be able to find him out even the regular shinobi was able to as you have shown before, and once he has, he can simply go to him and end it all with the edo explosion or even FTG slash if he touched him and it will work since his body has weakend.
Now lets assume he can use Joki Boy while the mirage is out (but i still think he can't) its still not a problem since he can still sense him out which i have shown already, and do the same thing as i finished the paragraph on top of this one
Another technique he can use his the
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with 3 other shadow clones or even a lighter version the 4 violet wall formation since it is basically the same thing except not as strong. Now with this, he can trap the Joki Boy in the barrier and with him all trapt with no escape, and Tobirama CAN sense him. He can find him and since he is weakend from the use of Joki Boy
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(sorry the scan i found was too small) so even the hozuki techniques wont work and Tobirama can attack him easily with any of his moves with the second unable to do anything.
KidGamer65
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What? Are you kidding me right now? Me not being able to explain why exactly chakra sensing won't work doesn't change the fact that it won't work. That's already confirmed in the manga.
Say that someone can't explain how birds fly. Does that mean they can't fly? No.
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You are pretty much contesting established manga facts. This is not up for debate.
@bold: Uh, no. They didn't sense him because they couldn't as shown in my second post.
This part of your post is full of assumptions on why they supposedly didn't sense out the clam despite me already posting a scan that clearly says they can't sense him with the mirage up. This point isn't debatable.
Finger Sensing isn't contact sensing, he's using chakra to do it so no. Its not working at all. I have already explained this to pateuvasiliu.
lol, what? That was me telling you Finger Sensing is derived from the chakra sensing technique so no, it won't work.
The sensor sand was already on the clam, it doesn't matter if he moves it cause they will be able to track it regardless.
Woah what? You haven't shown me anything except a post full of assumptions despite manga already stating that he can't be sensed out like that. Again, not sure why this part is debatable to you when the manga clearly says that he can't be sensed out.
What? Now you aren't even making any sense. The Genjutsu makes them see illusions, it won't turn something real into an illusion. The clam moved, its as simple as that.
Uh, nope.
He senses chakra. Period. That isn't up for debate.
The chakra of the mirage user can't be sensed. Not up for debate as I already posted a manga scan that says that very thing.
Meaning he'll sense the chakra of his water only not the Mizukage.
Not working as explained many many many times now. Don't even know where you got this from anyway.
All 3 different ways don't work. Especially when one of them has already been debunked in the manga.
1. Hmm, maybe because the manga already said it won't work.
2. lmao, Finger Sensing is derived from chakra sensing as Tobirama doesn't use contact sensing, since he isn't making contact with the enemy. Won't work.
3. This one doesn't even make any sense. I have explained why this won't work a million times now.
What kind of logic is this in the bold? That makes no sense at all.
Feats in the manga haven't shown it to have this crushing force necessary to smash the clam.
Too bad the mirage can never be stopped by him once its started so this part of your post is pretty much pointless.
You haven't shown anything. Instead you are making things up and going against something that was stated in the manga already.
lol? Tobirama clearly needed 3 other people to do this barrier with him and was only able to make 2 clones while using it even with their help and you are telling me that he can make 3 clones and use this barrier? Lmfao, not ever happening.
No, he can't sense him. That's pretty much a manga fact.
KidGamer65
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Lets stop here. We each have 4 posts. We should get the judges now since we are basically repeating ourselves.
'Genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain, thus causing a disruption in their senses'. Tobirama cannot sense with his senses blocked.
Long story short, Mizukage takes this.
Long story short, Mizukage takes this.
deidara senpai
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deidara senpai
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By feats i don't see Tobirama winning cause he is basically a Minato without rasengan and part 1 nerfed water style......Until he shows some water i can't really say he wins :/ Nice debate btw
deidara senpai
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He still has exploding edo tenseis which is more powerful then any suiton he's shown (so far)
KGB Kakuzu
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A nice debate by both
Overall, the Mizukage had a better presentation. As from the manga scans it is clear sensing in the mist is only possible by contact sensory... Meaning more ideas should have been focused around finding alternative ways to hit the clam compared to using regular sensory. Of course that's how I saw it.
I posted some back and forth thoughts on the situations but I'm putting them in spoilers... I posted assuming this debate is over.
Overall, the Mizukage had a better presentation. As from the manga scans it is clear sensing in the mist is only possible by contact sensory... Meaning more ideas should have been focused around finding alternative ways to hit the clam compared to using regular sensory. Of course that's how I saw it.
I posted some back and forth thoughts on the situations but I'm putting them in spoilers... I posted assuming this debate is over.
Now while in the Clam Genjutsu, the Mizukage cannot be sensed by chakra sensing techniques.
The theory of attempting to use contact sensing through Suiton is good; however, we do not know if this is possible for Tobirama.
The finger sensing has a flaw... So long as the Mizukage and his clam remain motionless, they would not make vibrations which is what Tobirama would have picked up if anything from touching the ground.
To speak for the other side, we saw people capable of defending themselves within the Genjutsu. Gaara was capable of defending from the Mizukage's attacks. While it is likely theoretical that the Trollkage can attack from unseen directions, we never saw this... So it is not 100% certain that an attack from the left happens as the image stands at the right to make an example.
Though this wouldn't give Tobirama any clues to where Trollkage is.
As for the clam's defense.... Crushing the clam isn't the only way to defeat the mirage.... Well by that I mean crushing it. The genjutsu forms from a mist places by the clams.... Extensions or whatever which were notably existing out of its shell at the start. Simply destroying these would cause an eventual breakdown in the genjutsu. Water can be made to have lethal impacts.... While not damaging one on the inside, severe internal bleeding and damage can occur meaning it is possible the Clam is destroyed because of force instead of actually being crushed.
Just for exposition's sake, Fire would simply heat up the clam.... Boiling it's innards if maintained for long enough (grand style Katon).
Though Tobirama possesses the Edo Bombs, and the newly discovered Suidonha that would both theoretically have enough destructive force or cutting force... At the least Suidonha has enough to slice through the clams inner organs/tissue if he hits its exposed port holes.... If not the clam itself.
However he has to blind fire it which is difficult to impossible. His only chance would be to use vibration sensing with clones, Suidonha or bombs at random, and hope he gets close enough to force movement... Even then being theoretical that vibrations can be detected as contact sensing which it could lean either way pending personal opinion. A final mist clearing method is the bombs themselves. With Edo tensei disrupting air patterns, the mirage mist can be blown away... Though considering he covered a warzone in it... Most likely it is a small sanctuary or a temporary safe zone. Pending if the genjutsu truly operates as a genjutsu, or more like a real mirage.
Of course one must ALSO ask Ir the mirage gets up in the first place. As the clam must be summoned and begin emitting mist. Trollkage was most notably seen as a ranged fighter so the thought of the Edos and Tobirams pressuring him is theoretically plausible too.
Those were just some of the back and forths going into my head. They are kind of disorganized so sorry about that... Also... Some of them were rather vague so sorry with that too.
The theory of attempting to use contact sensing through Suiton is good; however, we do not know if this is possible for Tobirama.
The finger sensing has a flaw... So long as the Mizukage and his clam remain motionless, they would not make vibrations which is what Tobirama would have picked up if anything from touching the ground.
To speak for the other side, we saw people capable of defending themselves within the Genjutsu. Gaara was capable of defending from the Mizukage's attacks. While it is likely theoretical that the Trollkage can attack from unseen directions, we never saw this... So it is not 100% certain that an attack from the left happens as the image stands at the right to make an example.
Though this wouldn't give Tobirama any clues to where Trollkage is.
As for the clam's defense.... Crushing the clam isn't the only way to defeat the mirage.... Well by that I mean crushing it. The genjutsu forms from a mist places by the clams.... Extensions or whatever which were notably existing out of its shell at the start. Simply destroying these would cause an eventual breakdown in the genjutsu. Water can be made to have lethal impacts.... While not damaging one on the inside, severe internal bleeding and damage can occur meaning it is possible the Clam is destroyed because of force instead of actually being crushed.
Just for exposition's sake, Fire would simply heat up the clam.... Boiling it's innards if maintained for long enough (grand style Katon).
Though Tobirama possesses the Edo Bombs, and the newly discovered Suidonha that would both theoretically have enough destructive force or cutting force... At the least Suidonha has enough to slice through the clams inner organs/tissue if he hits its exposed port holes.... If not the clam itself.
However he has to blind fire it which is difficult to impossible. His only chance would be to use vibration sensing with clones, Suidonha or bombs at random, and hope he gets close enough to force movement... Even then being theoretical that vibrations can be detected as contact sensing which it could lean either way pending personal opinion. A final mist clearing method is the bombs themselves. With Edo tensei disrupting air patterns, the mirage mist can be blown away... Though considering he covered a warzone in it... Most likely it is a small sanctuary or a temporary safe zone. Pending if the genjutsu truly operates as a genjutsu, or more like a real mirage.
Of course one must ALSO ask Ir the mirage gets up in the first place. As the clam must be summoned and begin emitting mist. Trollkage was most notably seen as a ranged fighter so the thought of the Edos and Tobirams pressuring him is theoretically plausible too.
Those were just some of the back and forths going into my head. They are kind of disorganized so sorry about that... Also... Some of them were rather vague so sorry with that too.