[Theory] Tobi: Thread for all Tobi theories and related discussions .
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lol why get frustrated for something so unbelievable and without basis? Of course any new person who sees that ridiculous assumption is gonna ask "really?".
Tobi is two people with ZERO evidence?
Tobi is Danzou with ZERO evidence?
Tobi is Obito with HORRENDOUSLY ROTTEN evidence, reasoning and sepculation?
That's a further reaching theory than most but you're saying it like it's fact. If you're not trolling (which I sincerely hope you are), you're gonna be swimming in a pool of eggs.
READ ALL BEFORE YOU POST YOUR COMMENT !!!
Criteria For Tobi’s Identity
1) He is from the time of Hashirama Senju, and needs to be someone the Kyuubi would instantly recognize.
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[/IMG]He is instantly recognized by the Kyuubi, who as far as we know has been sealed away in an Uzumaki jinchuuriki ever since the battle at the Valley of the End, where Uzumaki Mito sealed it into herself. There are no reports of the Kyuubi having broken free aside from in Yondaime’s time. This means that Tobi is someone the Kyuubi met during the time of Hashirama.
Given the way in which he speaks of past events, he has first-hand knowledge of and was emotionally investment in the Uchiha/Senju conflict.
Izuna fits: Uchiha Izuna was from this time period, and for obvious reasons, was personally and emotionally invested in fighting the Senju.
2) He has to have a credible reason for being pissed off at the Uchiha’s making peace with the Senju, and needs to be personally, emotionally invested in Uchiha Izuna’s eyes being given to Uchiha Madara.
“What kind of monster would hurt his beloved younger brother?! All I ever wanted was to protect the Uchiha clan! […] My younger brother accepted his role and willingly gave his eyes to me….[Tobi clenches his arms in anger]. What happened to the hatred we had for them?! What did my brother sacrifice his eyes for?!”
Izuna fits: He has ample reason to be pissed off at the Uchiha, even more so than Uchiha Madara; he sacrificed his eyes and possibly his life to give Madara the EMS in order to protect the Uchiha in their fight against the Senju, only to have them go and make peace? Why did he sacrifice his eyes and his life for them, then?!
3) He has a credible reason for claiming that the eyes Nagato had “were [his] to begin with.”
Izuna fits: If we accept the likelihood that Nagato’s eyes used to be Uchiha Madara’s (who is the only person we know which awakened the Rinnegan), then we also accept that Nagato’s eyes originally belonged to Uchiha Izuna’s, as we know that Uchiha Madara’s EMS eyes originally belonged to Izuna. Izuna fits this perfectly; no one else has a better credible reason to claim Nagato’s eyes “were his to begin with” than Izuna.
4) He needs to be a person whom Uchiha Madara will trust with his own life and rebirth.
Madara trusted Tobi to bring him back to life with Nagato’s powers. This is a major deal. Who would whant to ressurect an arrogant bastard like Madara unless he was your brother .... only the love of a brother would accept Madara
If we accept Madara’s statement that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before his death, then this also means that he had only a very short period of time to transplant the Rinnegan into child Nagato. This means that he was 100%, utterly dependent on Tobi to carry out the ‘plan’ he mentioned to Kabuto, which included his resurrection.
Madara also gave Tobi access to the Hashirama-related power which he had nearly died for; an incredible show of trust.
Izuna fits: He is Uchiha Madara’s younger brother, and brotherly ties are a major focal point of this manga. We know that Rinnei Tensei can bring the dead back to life, and we know that Uchiha Madara gained the Rinnegan before dying. It would make sense if he used the Rinnegan to bring back Izuna.
Counter-Argument: Nagato wasn’t able to bring back Jiraiya because he had died too long ago! How could Madara bring back Izuna, who had died even longer ago!
Response: Uchiha Madara planned to use Nagato to bring himself back to life. If we accept that Madara died while Nagato was a child (which is necessary, as Nagato was given the Rinnegan as a child), and that Nagato was expected to ‘grow’ into his power, then this shows Madara thought it was fully possible for Nagato to resurrect him, despite years having passed. Which indicates that it is also fully possible for Madara to resurrect Izuna, despite years having passed.
5) He needs to have a credible grudge against Konoha, and has to have waited a long time for his vengeance against Konoha.
Spoken to Kushina: “Do you have any idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?!”
Izuna fits: His reason for a grudge against Konoha are obvious and profound; he gave his eyes to fight against the Senju who controlled the village, then eventually expelled his brother out from it. If we accept that he died or was maimed back in Hashirama’s days, then he has been waiting a long, long time indeed for his vengeance.
6) Tobi needs to be an Uchiha.
Although not Madara, Tobi still needs to have an Uchiha’s body; he uses the sharingan with expertise not seen outside a native Uchiha, and does not appear to have any problems with his body not being suited for the sharingan.
Izuna fits: Self-explanatory.
7) Tobi has to have a credible reason for being at least partly made out of Zetsu goo, even as far back as the fight with Yondaime.
Izuna somewhat fits: Tobi claims that Uchiha Izuna died in battle after losing his eyes. Knowing that Rinnei Tensi is capable of bringing the dead back, and also knowing that Zetsu goo is based off of Hashirama’s DNA, it’s credible that for Madara to bring Izuna back, he had to use Zetsu goo for whatever reason. Admittedly, more data is required here.
8) He has an old, wrinkly face, despite being partially made out of Zetsu goo.
Izuna fits: If we accept that Izuna was brought back to life with the Rinnegan while Nagato was a child, then at least 30+ years have passed, as we know that Nagato (being Jiraiya’s first disciple) should be as old or older than Minato. If Izuna was brought back in a partially ‘real’ body which aged, and if he had died in his 20’s, then he would now be in his 50’s or 60’s, explaining the wrinkly face. This is also supported by the fact that he indicates if Itachi knew some of his secrets, the Amaterasu would have killed him, indicating that at least part of him was non-Zetsu goo and thus vulnerable to being killed.
Note: The biggest clue is that " Tobi is a good boy " meaning Izuna was a good brother to Madara but turn evil to get revenge for Madara.... i belive kishi is making a switch deja vu like Itachi and Sasuke .... Madara and Izuna
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This is a plausible theory with good points as Tobi's reaction seem too personal at many points and I myself thought it was him for the longest time.
It is just that by now I am not sure of anything. Kyuubi might have recognised him but he could have just noticed sharingan and might have been commenting on that only.
It is just that by now I am not sure of anything. Kyuubi might have recognised him but he could have just noticed sharingan and might have been commenting on that only.
Negative Knight
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Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
This is a list of most of the signifcant things done by Tobi which can be used to work out his identity to be Kagami Uchiha
-Met Itachi to go copy/read the Tablets at the Naka Shrine, either got Nagato to decipher or read them himself (this had to be a second Tobi because he would not go back for knowledge he had already accquired)
- Told Kisame of his plan when he was younger to control the world with the Eye of the Moon suggesting that he already possessed the Rinnegan and read all of the scrolls (this tobi must of been Madara Uchiha)
-Nagato was given Madara's Rinnegan when he was younger (probably because Madara was close to death at this time). Though to explain every possible counter to this argument if the recent version Tobi shown in Chapter 590 bares a resemblance to Madara Uchiha and Nagato should already be alive at this time with the Rinnegan then it could be simply put that Madara gave his Rinnegan prior to this event.
-Madara must have agreed with the 2nd Tobi to give his Rinnegan to someone with a strong life force and revive him when the time was right via the Rinne of Rebirth
-This is backed up by the fact Tobi claims to be Madara Uchiha and says that Nagato's Rinne of Rebirth which was used for the good of Konoha was meant for him. This shocked me at the time because it was strange that Tobi was planning on dying and be revived again whilst being alive defeating the purpose of what he was trying to do in a paradoxical way.
-When in reality the Rinne of Rebirth meant for him was actually to further his and Madara's plan to revive Madara so he could cast the eye of the moon plan.
-Tobi agreed to work with Kabuto not because of his Edo Tensei jutsu or his strength but simply because Kabuto now had leverage over Tobi because reviving Madara with edo tensei meant that when the time came Tobi couldn't revive Madara via Rinne of Rebirth, not to mention Kabuto having control of his partner's actions which could affect how the plan worked out.
-When the Nine-Tails attacked the village, the kyuubi referred to his controller as Madara Uchiha, undoubtly the name the 2nd Tobi was going under as his very name meant power.
-Tobi is also seen to detach Zetsu body parts from himself which could possibly suggest he used Zetsu body parts for their regenerative abilites or simply to counter his old age e.g. a Kakuzu like method to achieve a state of immortality
-If this half-evidence based assumption of immortality is correct then it allows for the possibility of Madara and this 2nd Tobi to have devised this ingenious Eye of the Moon Plan together in the same point of time without the commonly used argument of "if he knew Madara then he's too old to be alive" rendering this argument impossible.
-Not to mention if Tobi was able to successfully operate Akatsuki behind the scenes with Nagato as a figurehead, manipulate Kisame 11 years prior to the series and etc, then it is fully in his capacity to use techniques similar to that of Kakuzu and Hidan to attain a form of immortality.
-When Madara was brought back he knew who used edo tensei to bring him back and control him. He didn't know who Kabuto was but he expected to be revived by Nagato's rinne of rebirth via the rinnegan given to Nagato from Tobi just as both "Tobi" had planned.
-Also in a flashback with Kisame about 11 years in the past Madara Uchiha (the real one) revealed himself and explained his Eye of the Moon Plan. Tobi having the same plan and being recognized by Kisame for the second time meant that both times Kisame met with the same person. Madara obviously being dead at this time meant that if Kisame recognized the same person both times with the first one looking like Madara (only his hair was shown) and the second not showing any characteristics puts the idea up that the first Madara that Kisame had met had not in fact been him which means the face Kisame recognized both times must in fact be the same.
-Assuming the above statement is correct then 11 years in the past when Kisame met with the Madara looking Tobi and Itachi then met Tobi again just before the Uchiha massacre (the one that bared a vague resemblance to Madara Uchiha) then both Kisame and Itachi met the 2nd Tobi (the one with a unknown identity) but at this time in the past from about the first meeting with young Kisame to the days just before the Uchiha massacre, the 2nd tobi constructed his appearance mainly his hair to look like Madara Uchiha.
Use the above information to construct your own theories, I’m not here to force who tobi is on anyone though my guess is:
Tobi is either both Madara (1st Tobi) and then Kagami Uchiha (2nd Tobi) who continued Madara’s work for him after being brainwashed by him through the hate between the Senju vs the Uchiha or simply just Kagami Uchiha with the help of Madara.
Kagami can be alive as Hirzuen (without unnatural death), Danzou (same as hiruzen) and the two old advisor were all part of Tobirama’s team would all be alive minus the unnatural deaths caused by external influences.
For everyone thinking its Obito, I myself used to believe that theory but now…I think for myself
The amount of loop-holes in the theory e.g.
Madara knowing Obito?
Obito surviving death?
Obito hating the Hidden Leaf because of rocks falling on him? If anything i blame the Hidden Rock
Obito appearing taller/close to the height of Minato in the battle of masked men when clearly he is shorter/equal to Kakashi’s height?
Obito not reacting to the first time he saw Kakashi in a disdain or shock?
How Obito acquired the Rinnegan and was involved with Nagato when clearly Nagato is older than him?
and finally when Nagato got the rinnegan from tobi he looked to be around eight years old, so the idea of Obito giving it to him is impossible unless he did it around the time he was born and planned for the rocks to fall on him so he could harbour a grudge against Konoha, relinquish his name Obito and finally be known as Tobi.
Oh and anyone who thinks Tobi is Izuna Uchiha
Well, that doesn't work because Izuna died blind because he gave his older brother Madara his MS to turn into EMS. Madara evovled his EMS into Rinnegan at the time close to his death. Wouldn't Madara have brought back his brother with Rinne of Rebirth before giving his eyes to the 2nd Tobi (Kagami Uchiha)
Fuguku Uchiha - died in front of us not to mention a father wouldn't do this to his sons Itachi and Saskue
Tobirama - Apart from the first four letters of his name, no chance
Juubi - The personality of the Juubi is in Nine seperate parts, the tailed beasts
Zetsu - He's not crazy enough to report in to himself, create good tobi and follow orders issued by himself
Elder Son - One so strong does not simply use sly tactics instead of brute force and many other reasons. The elder son believe it or not wasn't pure evil just jealous of his younger brother.
This is a list of most of the signifcant things done by Tobi which can be used to work out his identity to be Kagami Uchiha
-Met Itachi to go copy/read the Tablets at the Naka Shrine, either got Nagato to decipher or read them himself (this had to be a second Tobi because he would not go back for knowledge he had already accquired)
- Told Kisame of his plan when he was younger to control the world with the Eye of the Moon suggesting that he already possessed the Rinnegan and read all of the scrolls (this tobi must of been Madara Uchiha)
-Nagato was given Madara's Rinnegan when he was younger (probably because Madara was close to death at this time). Though to explain every possible counter to this argument if the recent version Tobi shown in Chapter 590 bares a resemblance to Madara Uchiha and Nagato should already be alive at this time with the Rinnegan then it could be simply put that Madara gave his Rinnegan prior to this event.
-Madara must have agreed with the 2nd Tobi to give his Rinnegan to someone with a strong life force and revive him when the time was right via the Rinne of Rebirth
-This is backed up by the fact Tobi claims to be Madara Uchiha and says that Nagato's Rinne of Rebirth which was used for the good of Konoha was meant for him. This shocked me at the time because it was strange that Tobi was planning on dying and be revived again whilst being alive defeating the purpose of what he was trying to do in a paradoxical way.
-When in reality the Rinne of Rebirth meant for him was actually to further his and Madara's plan to revive Madara so he could cast the eye of the moon plan.
-Tobi agreed to work with Kabuto not because of his Edo Tensei jutsu or his strength but simply because Kabuto now had leverage over Tobi because reviving Madara with edo tensei meant that when the time came Tobi couldn't revive Madara via Rinne of Rebirth, not to mention Kabuto having control of his partner's actions which could affect how the plan worked out.
-When the Nine-Tails attacked the village, the kyuubi referred to his controller as Madara Uchiha, undoubtly the name the 2nd Tobi was going under as his very name meant power.
-Tobi is also seen to detach Zetsu body parts from himself which could possibly suggest he used Zetsu body parts for their regenerative abilites or simply to counter his old age e.g. a Kakuzu like method to achieve a state of immortality
-If this half-evidence based assumption of immortality is correct then it allows for the possibility of Madara and this 2nd Tobi to have devised this ingenious Eye of the Moon Plan together in the same point of time without the commonly used argument of "if he knew Madara then he's too old to be alive" rendering this argument impossible.
-Not to mention if Tobi was able to successfully operate Akatsuki behind the scenes with Nagato as a figurehead, manipulate Kisame 11 years prior to the series and etc, then it is fully in his capacity to use techniques similar to that of Kakuzu and Hidan to attain a form of immortality.
-When Madara was brought back he knew who used edo tensei to bring him back and control him. He didn't know who Kabuto was but he expected to be revived by Nagato's rinne of rebirth via the rinnegan given to Nagato from Tobi just as both "Tobi" had planned.
-Also in a flashback with Kisame about 11 years in the past Madara Uchiha (the real one) revealed himself and explained his Eye of the Moon Plan. Tobi having the same plan and being recognized by Kisame for the second time meant that both times Kisame met with the same person. Madara obviously being dead at this time meant that if Kisame recognized the same person both times with the first one looking like Madara (only his hair was shown) and the second not showing any characteristics puts the idea up that the first Madara that Kisame had met had not in fact been him which means the face Kisame recognized both times must in fact be the same.
-Assuming the above statement is correct then 11 years in the past when Kisame met with the Madara looking Tobi and Itachi then met Tobi again just before the Uchiha massacre (the one that bared a vague resemblance to Madara Uchiha) then both Kisame and Itachi met the 2nd Tobi (the one with a unknown identity) but at this time in the past from about the first meeting with young Kisame to the days just before the Uchiha massacre, the 2nd tobi constructed his appearance mainly his hair to look like Madara Uchiha.
Use the above information to construct your own theories, I’m not here to force who tobi is on anyone though my guess is:
Tobi is either both Madara (1st Tobi) and then Kagami Uchiha (2nd Tobi) who continued Madara’s work for him after being brainwashed by him through the hate between the Senju vs the Uchiha or simply just Kagami Uchiha with the help of Madara.
Kagami can be alive as Hirzuen (without unnatural death), Danzou (same as hiruzen) and the two old advisor were all part of Tobirama’s team would all be alive minus the unnatural deaths caused by external influences.
For everyone thinking its Obito, I myself used to believe that theory but now…I think for myself
The amount of loop-holes in the theory e.g.
Madara knowing Obito?
Obito surviving death?
Obito hating the Hidden Leaf because of rocks falling on him? If anything i blame the Hidden Rock
Obito appearing taller/close to the height of Minato in the battle of masked men when clearly he is shorter/equal to Kakashi’s height?
Obito not reacting to the first time he saw Kakashi in a disdain or shock?
How Obito acquired the Rinnegan and was involved with Nagato when clearly Nagato is older than him?
and finally when Nagato got the rinnegan from tobi he looked to be around eight years old, so the idea of Obito giving it to him is impossible unless he did it around the time he was born and planned for the rocks to fall on him so he could harbour a grudge against Konoha, relinquish his name Obito and finally be known as Tobi.
Oh and anyone who thinks Tobi is Izuna Uchiha
Well, that doesn't work because Izuna died blind because he gave his older brother Madara his MS to turn into EMS. Madara evovled his EMS into Rinnegan at the time close to his death. Wouldn't Madara have brought back his brother with Rinne of Rebirth before giving his eyes to the 2nd Tobi (Kagami Uchiha)
Fuguku Uchiha - died in front of us not to mention a father wouldn't do this to his sons Itachi and Saskue
Tobirama - Apart from the first four letters of his name, no chance
Juubi - The personality of the Juubi is in Nine seperate parts, the tailed beasts
Zetsu - He's not crazy enough to report in to himself, create good tobi and follow orders issued by himself
Elder Son - One so strong does not simply use sly tactics instead of brute force and many other reasons. The elder son believe it or not wasn't pure evil just jealous of his younger brother.
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
So how should Kagami known about Rikudou sennin, his sons and the juubi? How should Kagami give Nagato the rinnegan? How should Kagami have so good knowledge about the rinnegan? How should Kagami control the nine tails?
Fail thread, and these threads are banned
So how should Kagami known about Rikudou sennin, his sons and the juubi? How should Kagami give Nagato the rinnegan? How should Kagami have so good knowledge about the rinnegan? How should Kagami control the nine tails?
Fail thread, and these threads are banned
Negative Knight
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
I'm sure you didn't read the part where him and Madara are working together
Madara gives away his Rinnegan
Kagami can easily use Nagato to decipher all the knowledge about Juubi, SO6P and sons or Madara simply told his partner in crime
Fail Attempt at an argument my friend
I'm sure you didn't read the part where him and Madara are working together
Madara gives away his Rinnegan
Kagami can easily use Nagato to decipher all the knowledge about Juubi, SO6P and sons or Madara simply told his partner in crime
Fail Attempt at an argument my friend
Pendulum1337
Member
Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
This is at the wrong section.
Move it to banned area.
This is at the wrong section.
Move it to banned area.
A Pimp Named Slickback
Member
Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
+rep for your efforts
To all those who post "wrong section" after someone else has posted that before you we get the point say something productive.
+rep for your efforts
To all those who post "wrong section" after someone else has posted that before you we get the point say something productive.
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sasukexx13
Banned
Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
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LeEvilTongue
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
No offence but your avatar and signature are kinda gay.
Negative Knight
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
Kagami Uchiha could of controlled the Nine-Tails as taught by Madara Uchiha
Knowing about the Juubi and SO6P requires the rinnegan to read some of the scrolls at the Naka Shrine so Madara with his rinnegan could of gave his knowledge to Kagami
Kagami could of copied down the scrolls to be deciphered by Nagato (the temporary vessel for Madara's Rinnegan)
Lol i wrote the thread in seperate notes probaby noting down ideas, the grammar isn't wrong its just hard to read in bulk.
Kagami Uchiha could of controlled the Nine-Tails as taught by Madara Uchiha
Knowing about the Juubi and SO6P requires the rinnegan to read some of the scrolls at the Naka Shrine so Madara with his rinnegan could of gave his knowledge to Kagami
Kagami could of copied down the scrolls to be deciphered by Nagato (the temporary vessel for Madara's Rinnegan)
Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
Wow someone's being bitchy. *cough* *cough*
Anyway though, uh NegatIve Knight, this is not a bad theory. You actually said a lot of facts, regardless of what others might say. And I NarutoWiki'd Kagami Uchiha and there is like NO info on him. Lol maybe Kishi is doing that on purpose. The one thing wiki said that I thought was interesting was " He is assumed to have died at some later point, either before or during the Uchiha clan massacre. "..... You see the word "ASSUMED" right?
Ya never know... Ya never know...
(Plus they do look awfully similar. Lol)
Wow someone's being bitchy. *cough* *cough*
Anyway though, uh NegatIve Knight, this is not a bad theory. You actually said a lot of facts, regardless of what others might say. And I NarutoWiki'd Kagami Uchiha and there is like NO info on him. Lol maybe Kishi is doing that on purpose. The one thing wiki said that I thought was interesting was " He is assumed to have died at some later point, either before or during the Uchiha clan massacre. "..... You see the word "ASSUMED" right?
Ya never know... Ya never know...
(Plus they do look awfully similar. Lol)
Negative Knight
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
Nah Tobi wasn't really a member of Akatsuki, he managed to come by it some time and realized he could use it as a way of achieving his short-term goal of capturing the tail-beasts with powerful Shinobi
Nah Tobi wasn't really a member of Akatsuki, he managed to come by it some time and realized he could use it as a way of achieving his short-term goal of capturing the tail-beasts with powerful Shinobi
Negative Knight
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Re: Full Explanation on why Tobi is Kagami Uchiha
Not to mention he could of felt the same jealously danzou felt when Hiruzen was made the 3rd Hokage.
LOL nice one man, you noticed it too. All of the members of Team Tobirama had enough info on them but Kagami Uchiha was written off even though his power level should be close to that of Hiruzen.
Not to mention he could of felt the same jealously danzou felt when Hiruzen was made the 3rd Hokage.
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