Tobi and Kisame

[Timiursa]

If we accept that Tobi is indeed Obito then I have a question.

We know that Yagura was controlled by Tobi. That was a long time ago when Obito wasnt born or at the very least was very young. Many people believe that there were different Tobis through the years and that the one who controlled the Mizukage was Madara himself.
But now: Kisame saw that (the one who controlled Yagura) Tobi's face. That's why he forced himself out of the mind reading jutsu, to keep Tobi's identity secret. Kisame was convinced that Tobi was Madara.
But today's Tobi (Who is according to 599) Obito showed him his face as well and he still called him Madara and reckognized him as the person from the Hidden Mist. But Obito's face from 599 doesnt look like the real Madara at all.

So did Obito trick Kisame with a genjutsu or something? Because nothing of this makes sense... I can accept that Tobi is Obito, dont get me wrong. But this part is even more confusing to me than the fact that Obito actually could not have been the one who fought Minato.

 

[thegame]

Nah Yagura is much younger than Obito, so you're wrong. Make evidence before u state shit... And when he met Kisame was at the time Kisame was recruited for akatsuki so it was much later as well.

 

[ItachiSan03]

Obito must have tricked kisame, because there's no way he could have been the one to control the mizukage.

 

[sulanis]

With Sharingan apparently its possible.

 

[Timiursa]

Nah Yagura is much younger than Obito, so you're wrong. Make evidence before u state shit... And when he met Kisame was at the time Kisame was recruited for akatsuki so it was much later as well.

Dont forget that Yagura died and was resurrected, we dont know how old he actually is / was. If you have some sort of time line that disproves what I say, I apologize.

 

[Sazzi]

also keeping in mind that madara and obito's plan is known by both... and considered "that plan"... more questions to ponder...

 

[Lucian]

The one who control Yagura is Madara

The one who fought Minato is black zetsu

The current tobi is white zetsu with obito

 

[thegame]

Obito must have tricked kisame, because there's no way he could have been the one to control the mizukage.

Well I'm sorry to say it, but it is possible. I do not believe that Tobi is Obito in both mind and body either, but Yagura was made mizukage shortly after Tobi attacked Minato and Kushina. I can prove this, because he was so young when we saw him, and we know for a fact that Zabuza and Haki was made rouge ninja for trying to assasinate the 4th mizukage, which obviously must've happened some time 3-5 years after narutos birth since Haku was about 3 years older than Naruto. Also this should've happened about the same time as Tobi + Yagura met Kisame, after Kisame killed Fuguki? (I think thats his name, the one who had shamehada before him?), anyway a lot happened in these years. We also have evidence from this due to Kimmimaros story about his clans massacre, which was done by the mist (4th mizukage, tobi descision)

 

[thegame]

Dont forget that Yagura died and was resurrected, we dont know how old he actually is / was. If you have some sort of time line that disproves what I say, I apologize.

Well I just sort of proved it, in my post above xd
But thinking of it, he was the 4th Mizukage, and we know nothing about the 3rd Mizukage, we don't even know for sure who it was, though Kishi has made indications that it was Madara. But well read above, the prove is from the age of Zabuza and Haki that we can determine Yaguras age.

 

[Timiursa]

The Zabuza thing indeed proves it, you're right. But knowing Kishi he will probably explain everything. He wont leave plot holes, at least not major ones.

 

[Mizukata]

henge no jutsu?or since there are no pictures a deformed obito can pass easly as a battle fustigated madara

 

[Floydical]

At the OP, it seems the Tobi that controlled the Mizukage was indeed Tobi/ Obito. The fact that Kisame confirms Tobi's face as the person who controlled the Mizukage confirms it 100% IMO. It also tells us that Obito was able to convince Kisame that he was in fact Madara, and Kisame didn't question it after that. It wasn't that Kisame knew the real Madara and thought Obito looked like him, it was simply Obito lying to him and convincing him that he was Madara.

As for the whole time line, Keep in mind that Kisame was about 28 when he died right? Well in those flashbacks, he was not fully grown when he was defending the intel corps, or at least hadn't filled out yet, putting him in his teen's I would think. But don't forget that he was filled out when he met Tobi /Obito. Therefore, It is likely Kisame was as old as his early 20's but not likely younger than 16.

Despite all this, if we guess the lower end of 16, that still puts these events at 12 years ago, plenty of time after the 9 tails attack for Obito to do the things he did in the Mist Village.

 

[Lucian]

Since when did Kisame see the real Madara face?

 

[zzsdkzz]

Since when did Kisame see the real Madara face?

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[thegame]

At the OP, it seems the Tobi that controlled the Mizukage was indeed Tobi/ Obito. The fact that Kisame confirms Tobi's face as the person who controlled the Mizukage confirms it 100% IMO. It also tells us that Obito was able to convince Kisame that he was in fact Madara, and Kisame didn't question it after that. It wasn't that Kisame knew the real Madara and thought Obito looked like him, it was simply Obito lying to him and convincing him that he was Madara.

As for the whole time line, Keep in mind that Kisame was about 28 when he died right? Well in those flashbacks, he was not fully grown when he was defending the intel corps, or at least hadn't filled out yet, putting him in his teen's I would think. But don't forget that he was filled out when he met Tobi /Obito. Therefore, It is likely Kisame was as old as his early 20's but not likely younger than 16.

Despite all this, if we guess the lower end of 16, that still puts these events at 12 years ago, plenty of time after the 9 tails attack for Obito to do the things he did in the Mist Village.

My only problem about this, is how the hell should he have proved it? It surely occured BEFORE the uchiha massacre, it could have been any Uchiha. The only way to prove it, would be by showing his EMS to Kisame, which were made to rinnengan and they were in nagatos possesion at the time?

Guess I just realised a huge plot hole from Kishi, lol

 

[Floydical]

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That couldn't have been the real Madara because Kisame later identifies Tobi as being the same man. So Obito simply lied and told him he was Madara and Kisame believed it.

 

[Floydical]

My only problem about this, is how the hell should he have proved it? It surely occured BEFORE the uchiha massacre, it could have been any Uchiha. The only way to prove it, would be by showing his EMS to Kisame, which were made to rinnengan and they were in nagatos possesion at the time?

Guess I just realised a huge plot hole from Kishi, lol

I think you are confusing yourself sir. Tobi/ Obito only had to show Kisame his face to prove his identity. Showing him his EMS was not required because Kisame could recognize him by his face alone.

Not only that, but Obito's sharingan were not made into rinnegan (SMH), Madara's were. Madara awakened Rinn from his EMS, gave them to Nagato and died. Obviously Tobi did not come into the matter until much later. Keep in mind that Obito's MS are both being used right now, so how can they be the rinnegan you speak of?

Again, don't confuse this stuff.

1. Obito convinced Kisame he was Madara by lying to him.
2. Kisame identified Tobi as the man who controlled the Mizukage, not knowing that person was actually Obito.

 

[Lucian]

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He himself identify as Madara, that was the first time Kisame saw Madara face.
Tobi might use Madara name to bluff Kisame

 

[thegame]

I think you are confusing yourself sir. Tobi/ Obito only had to show Kisame his face to prove his identity. Showing him his EMS was not required because Kisame could recognize him by his face alone.

Not only that, but Obito's sharingan were not made into rinnegan (SMH), Madara's were. Madara awakened Rinn from his EMS, gave them to Nagato and died. Obviously Tobi did not come into the matter until much later. Keep in mind that Obito's MS are both being used right now, so how can they be the rinnegan you speak of?

Again, don't confuse this stuff.

1. Obito convinced Kisame he was Madara by lying to him.
2. Kisame identified Tobi as the man who controlled the Mizukage, not knowing that person was actually Obito.

But bro, Kisame wouldn't know how Madaras face looked... He never met him before

 

[Floydical]

But bro, Kisame wouldn't know how Madaras face looked... He never met him before

Exactly, that's why Tobi/ Obito was able to convince him that he was Madara, because Kisame only heard things about Madara and never actually met him.

Once Tobi /Obito convinced him he was Madara, Kisame always connected Obito's face with Madara, hence why he identified Obito as Madara in chapter 404.

I don't exactly see what you are trying to get at or what you think is a plot hole...