Timeline Proof: Shisui was the 3rd Mangekyuo User

[iSpeak]

I love how you ignored the evidence about minato's face being shown on the statue. Tell me, if you are just going off the images shown in 599 and what they imply, why don't you tell me more about how minato became the hokage before the battle of kannabi bridge ever took place?

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't open your links and you had edited the Minato part of your post after I had already posted my reply.
Anway, Minato's face being on the monument was a mistake and Kishi realised this which is why he removed it when he released the volume.

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However, Kishi still kept Obito and Kakashi on the same team in the Chunnin exams, explain to me why this could be? Obviously that part wasn't a mistake.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't open your links and you had edited the Minato part of your post after I had already posted my reply.
Anway, Minato's face being on the monument was a mistake and Kishi realised this which is why he removed it when he released the volume. However, Kishi still kept Obito and Kakashi on the same team in the Chunnin exams, explain to me why this could be? Obviously that wasn't a mistake.

The bolded pretty much means that you admit that there was a mistake in chapter 599. If there is one mistake, it gives increased credibility that there might be others as well. Because the only reason we even know it was a mistake is our prior knowledge. Since we have'nt been given specifics about Obito's current age and Kakashi's Jounin promotion age, there are bound to be speculations. The vast majority of facts outside of one chapter(in which even you admit there is an obvious flaw) point toward kakashi and obito being the same age.

For example, why don't you give me a single example of ANY 3 man team, in any village where there has EVER been a 3 to 4 year age difference between members? I can give you Naruto and Sasuke as an example to support the same age theory, do you have even one?

 

[iSpeak]

The bolded pretty much means that you admit that there was a mistake in chapter 599. If there is one mistake, it gives increased credibility that there might be others as well. Because the only reason we even know it was a mistake is our prior knowledge. Since we have'nt been given specifics about Obito's current age and Kakashi's Jounin promotion age, there are bound to be speculations. The vast majority of facts outside of one chapter(in which even you admit there is an obvious flaw) point toward kakashi and obito being the same age.

For example, why don't you give me a single example of ANY 3 man team, in any village where there has EVER been a 3 to 4 year age difference between members? I can give you Naruto and Sasuke as an example to support the same age theory, do you have even one?

I know there was a mistake in that chapter... but Kishi fixed it. The fact that Kishi left Obito and Kakashi on the same team shows that part obviously wasn't a mistake.
Kishi doesn't need to give us Obito's current age or Kakashi's Jonin promotion age to work out whether they are the same age or not. Kishi has provided us with enough information and we don't even need to use speculation.
The calculation I used is undeniable in proving that they are not the same age which is why the only response that can be given is "maybe Kishi made a mistake", whilst you speculate and jump to conclusions that Obito and Kakashi should be the same age simply because other teams consisted of Shinobi who were around the same age.

Obito and Kakashi were in the same team in the Chunin exams.
Obito promoted to Gennin aged 9
Kakashi promoted to Chunnin age 6

This means that Obito is at the very least 3 years older than Kakashi. This is undeniable proof, no speculation at all and there is nothing except assumptions to even suggest otherwise.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I know there was a mistake in that chapter... but Kishi fixed it. The fact that Kishi left Obito and Kakashi on the same team shows that part obviously wasn't a mistake.
Kishi doesn't need to give us Obito's current age or Kakashi's Jonin promotion age to work out whether they are the same age or not. Kishi has provided us with enough information.
The calculation I used is undeniable in proving that they are not the same age which is why the only response that can be given is "maybe Kishi made a mistake", whilst you speculate and jump to conclusions that Obito and Kakashi should be the same age simply because other teams consisted of Shinobi who were around the same age.

Obito and Kakashi were in the same team in the Chunin exams.
Obito promoted to Gennin aged 9
Kakashi promoted to Chunnin age 6

This means that Obito is at the very least 3 years older than Kakashi. This is undeniable proof and there is nothing except assumptions to even suggest otherwise.

False again. Ok tell me this: You agree that Obito was 9 when he graduated, and 11 when he became a chuunin as stated here:

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Why don't you also take a look at what's been stated over here:

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14 BNT

 

[iSpeak]

False again. Ok tell me this: You agree that Obito was 9 when he graduated, and 11 when he became a chuunin as stated here:

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Why don't you also take a look at what's been stated over here:

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14 BNT

Erm... I don't use Naruto.Wiki to back my points. Databook is what I use.
I could care less what they say on Naruto.Wiki, it is edited by random people whilst the Databook is written by the writer himself. Everybody knows this and i'm surprised you don't know this yet. The person even says himself that it is an assumption.
There is nothing in the manga or databook to say they are the same age. If you want, get who ever put that on Naruto.wiki here and ill ask them myself to show me their source.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Erm... I don't use Naruto.Wiki to back my points. Databook is what I use.
I could care less what they say on Naruto.Wiki especially when they havn't even referenced it to anything, it is edited by random people whilst the Databook is written by the writer himself. Everybody knows this and i'm surprised you don't know this yet.
There is nothing in the manga or databook to say they are the same age. If you want, get who ever put that on Naruto.wiki here and ill ask them myself to show me their source.

I'm well aware of that, but its correct in this case. *sigh* your such a stubborn person to argue with the only point of showing obito graduating late was to emphasize him as weaker than kakashi,not older you moron. But, ok lets stick only to the databooks and the manga, then. The first databook lists Kakashi's age as 26 years old. Naruto's age was given as 12. Meaning Kakashi was 26-12= 14 years old when the Kyuubi attacked.

The second databook lists Obito's age as 13. Meaning the age he was thought to have died.

The second databook also says that more than ten years ago, in the 3rd great ninja war, the battle of the kannabi bridge occurred. It DOESNT say 20 years, or even 15, it says more than 10. So it was already 12 years at the Kyuubi attack, that leaves a maximum of 2 years for the events at Kannabi bridge. Meaning at the very least Kakashi was 14-2=12 years old when Obito supposedly died at age 13.
I know you're going to disagree with this again but really, why did the databook chose to say more than 10 years ago? Why not more than 15, as your ridiculous assumption points towards? More than 10 can be a hundred, a thousand or a million, yes i'm well aware. But really use your common sense here. Is there any point in not saying more than 15 + years unless it was less than that?

 

[iSpeak]

I'm well aware of that, but its correct in this case. *sigh* your such a stubborn person to argue with the only point of showing obito graduating late was to emphasize him as weaker than kakashi,not older you moron. But, ok lets stick only to the databooks and the manga, then. The first databook lists Kakashi's age as 26 years old. Naruto's age was given as 12. Meaning Kakashi was 26-12= 14 years old when the Kyuubi attacked.

The second databook lists Obito's age as 13. Meaning the age he was thought to have died.

The second databook also says that more than ten years ago, in the 3rd great ninja war, the battle of the kannabi bridge occurred. It DOESNT say 20 years, or even 15, it says more than 10. So it was already 12 years at the Kyuubi attack, that leaves a maximum of 2 years for the events at Kannabi bridge. Meaning at the very least Kakashi was 14-2=12 years old when Obito supposedly died at age 13.
I know you're going to disagree with this again but really, why did the databook chose to say more than 10 years ago? Why not more than 15, as your ridiculous assumption points towards? More than 10 can be a hundred, a thousand or a million, yes i'm well aware. But really use your common sense here. Is there any point in not saying more than 15 + years unless it was less than that?

Yawn, to be honest I cant even be bothered any more. Your whole post consists of just assumptions and jumping to conclusions. You even went as far as posting some random guys bs Naruto.wiki timeline. Yet when I have brought undeniable facts which you cant dispute, all you can say to counter it is "maybe Kishi made a mistake".
Just accept it, they are not the same age. The Manga and Databook both point to Obito older and nothing has been said in either that contradicts this. You are obviously in denial.

 

[Nakamazi Itchigo]

Totally agree

 

[thegame]

Although your actual "proof" is very weak, I do believe you are right. However, we don't know, if anyone mastered MS before him. His father for instance? Or perhaps even Itachi and Sasuke's dad. So it's is just a bold assumption, since we saw no other with MS.

Now to the weak "proof". It's just as likely, that after using it once, he could feel, how long it would take, for the jutsu to re-activate.

Also - assuming that the time gap for both eyes is the same is ridicules. Clearly the difference on the "KA" Danzou could use and the KA Itachi used on himself is huge. Clearly Itachi's is waaaaay more powerful. The way they are used is also very different. Itachi's needed eye contact, whereas Danzou's was a more sneaky jutsu. Also Itachi's took complete control over target, where Danzou's just placed an idea in the persons mind, kinda like inception.

Also the time gap. If Danzou reduced it from 10 years to 1 day.... that is an improvement of 3650! And clearly - even Hashirama's DNA - does not improve any person so much. So it must have been less for that eye. Also it was never stated, that both eyes had such a long activation time. Itachi said it for the eye Shisui gave him, but the eye Danzou stole is different.

For the better proofs. Ao (or Blue in English) had fought Itachi and seen his sharingan in action. We have no knowledge, of when he acquired byakugan, however, I believe it's safe to assume, it must have been before Naruto's birth, and probably during a war, since that is the only way, it could go unnoticed. Also the 3rd war, seems to be the only war, where Kiri participated. So Shisui must have had MS during that war - I believe.

 

[thegame]

Nope, Obito and Rin are the same age, Kakashi is younger. He was a prodigy when he was young which is why he was able to go up the ranks at a quicker age rate.

My calculations show that they are not the same age...

Are they both on the same team in the chunnin exams? Yes

Is Kakashi's chuunin age 6? Yes

Is Obito's Academy Grad age 9? Yes

So how can they possibly be the same age? These three pieces of information alone shows that Obito is at the very minimum 3 years older than Kakashi.



I know, but it doesn't say how long after it ended. 3-4 years later is when it did which is what I am trying to say.

But you and the other guy has brought up valid points about when Itachi massacred his clan so ill leave that alone.

There are 2 options:

Kishi changed his mind on what he wrote in the databook, or he just forgot, because it wasn't important. Cause in the end manga > databook. Manga clearly shows a gap of 2 years between each of them graduating. Kishi illustrates it very clearly by showing the seasons in Japan during Obito's training, and his next participations in chunin exams. And clearly - when Obito becomes chunin Kakashi becomes Jonin.

So which age part is wrong? There is only a 2 years gap between Kakashi's jonin grad and chunin grad. Manga proves undeniable. U_U So is he 8 or 13 as Jonin, meaning either 6 or 11 as chunin? Fact is, Kakashi's age is well known. Calculations will show, that he was 13 at the time, when he became Jonin, so he was 11, when graduated, and thus same age as Obito.

Kishi made mistakes before, but just coped with them, and changed either databook or manga so it got incorporated in the story. This happens for any very long manga. It's a human mistake, that anyone could make.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Although your actual "proof" is very weak, I do believe you are right. However, we don't know, if anyone mastered MS before him. His father for instance? Or perhaps even Itachi and Sasuke's dad. So it's is just a bold assumption, since we saw no other with MS.

Now to the weak "proof". It's just as likely, that after using it once, he could feel, how long it would take, for the jutsu to re-activate.

Also - assuming that the time gap for both eyes is the same is ridicules. Clearly the difference on the "KA" Danzou could use and the KA Itachi used on himself is huge. Clearly Itachi's is waaaaay more powerful. The way they are used is also very different. Itachi's needed eye contact, whereas Danzou's was a more sneaky jutsu. Also Itachi's took complete control over target, where Danzou's just placed an idea in the persons mind, kinda like inception.

Also the time gap. If Danzou reduced it from 10 years to 1 day.... that is an improvement of 3650! And clearly - even Hashirama's DNA - does not improve any person so much. So it must have been less for that eye. Also it was never stated, that both eyes had such a long activation time. Itachi said it for the eye Shisui gave him, but the eye Danzou stole is different.

For the better proofs. Ao (or Blue in English) had fought Itachi and seen his sharingan in action. We have no knowledge, of when he acquired byakugan, however, I believe it's safe to assume, it must have been before Naruto's birth, and probably during a war, since that is the only way, it could go unnoticed. Also the 3rd war, seems to be the only war, where Kiri participated. So Shisui must have had MS during that war - I believe.

Ao fought Shisui, not Itachi, lol

See, in my previous thread on this exact same topic, i mentioned these points and others, such as Killer Bee's knowledge on Shisui. This specific thread was using the timeline to prove these points about Shisui being the 3rd KNOWN MS user.
In my last thread ( i linked it in the OP) i gave all these points and others .

 

[iSpeak]

There are 2 options:

Kishi changed his mind on what he wrote in the databook, or he just forgot, because it wasn't important. Cause in the end manga > databook. Manga clearly shows a gap of 2 years between each of them graduating. Kishi illustrates it very clearly by showing the seasons in Japan during Obito's training, and his next participations in chunin exams. And clearly - when Obito becomes chunin Kakashi becomes Jonin.

So which age part is wrong? There is only a 2 years gap between Kakashi's jonin grad and chunin grad. Manga proves undeniable. U_U So is he 8 or 13 as Jonin, meaning either 6 or 11 as chunin? Fact is, Kakashi's age is well known. Calculations will show, that he was 13 at the time, when he became Jonin, so he was 11, when graduated, and thus same age as Obito.

Kishi made mistakes before, but just coped with them, and changed either databook or manga so it got incorporated in the story. This happens for any very long manga. It's a human mistake, that anyone could make.

Why is it the only response I can get it "Kishi might have forgot" or "Maybe it was a mistake".

Anyway,

First of all, where does it show a 2 year gap between each of them graduating? I didn't really understand that part...

Second of all, Kakashi never became Jonin in Obito's flashback which is where you are wrong. He became Chuunin in Obito's flashback.

Kakashi was promoted to Jonin at the beginning of Kakashi Gaiden here: ( meaning Obito was already Chuunin for 2 years when Kakashi became Jonin).

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I don't know where you got the 2 year thing from, but if that was the case it would prove I am right.

Kakashi became chuunin aged 6, meaning Obito was aged 9 at that time. Two years lated Obito graduates (age 11).

No calculation show that Kakashi was the same age as Obito. People only though that because of the misconception that Kakashi was 13 years old when he was promoted to 13, which isn't true and has never been stated anywhere.

 

[thegame]

Ao fought Shisui, not Itachi, lol

See, in my previous thread on this exact same topic, i mentioned these points and others, such as Killer Bee's knowledge on Shisui. This specific thread was using the timeline to prove these points about Shisui being the 3rd KNOWN MS user.
In my last thread ( i linked it in the OP) i gave all these points and others .

I simply miswrote Itachi instead of Shisui. Else my whole point for mentioning it wouldn't make sense. Anyway I see, but linking to threads usually wont make people go there, sorry, anyway point taken.

 

[thegame]

Why is it the only response I can get it "Kishi might have forgot" or "Maybe it was a mistake".

Anyway,

First of all, where does it show a 2 year gap between each of them graduating? I didn't really understand that part...

If you go through chapter 599, although it would seem, I was wrong. It's only a 1 year gap actually. Doesn't change much though. Go through chapter 599, you will see that the chunin exam is in spring (I think it is always during spring, once a year), anyway, when Obito doesn't graduate he starts training. We see images of him training during winter, and then when it's spring again (the Sakura leafs falling from the air illustrates spring, I believe), nonetheless, what Kishi tries to show us, by showing the seasons, is how long it takes, before Obito becomes a chunin. And at the exact same time Kakashi becomes a Jonin. Chapter 599 also shows this, and again the sakura leafs prove that it is still during spring, same year.

Second of all, Kakashi never became Jonin in Obito's flashback which is where you are wrong. He became Chuunin in Obito's flashback.

No this is clearly wrong. As I said above, read through the chapter 599, page 12 Obito becomes a chunin, and meets with Rin, however, Rin tells him to give a present for Kakashi, since he became a Jonin, it clearly says so on the paper. The seasons shows it's at the same year/season.

Kakashi became chuunin aged 6, meaning Obito was aged 9 at that time. Two years lated Obito graduates (age 11).

No calculation show that Kakashi was the same age as Obito. People only though that because of the misconception that Kakashi was 13 years old when he was promoted to 13, which isn't true and has never been stated anywhere.

This flashback alone - despite no words are seen - actually proves many things in the manga also regarding other issues than this one. So it doesn't seem very random to me. I think Kishi placed these proves in this chapter to make up for some time-line stuff. For instance, the fact that he shows Ibiki proves, when Kisame met Obito the first time.
I am not sure about all the calculations and such, I am just certain, that Kakashi and Obito became Jonin and Chunin the same year, and that Kakashi was chunin for 1 year, before he became a Jonin. This should crush whatever the databooks say, although it will probably be corrected in a fourth databook, so till then it can still raise some doubt.

 

[iSpeak]

If you go through chapter 599, although it would seem, I was wrong. It's only a 1 year gap actually. Doesn't change much though. Go through chapter 599, you will see that the chunin exam is in spring (I think it is always during spring, once a year), anyway, when Obito doesn't graduate he starts training. We see images of him training during winter, and then when it's spring again (the Sakura leafs falling from the air illustrates spring, I believe), nonetheless, what Kishi tries to show us, by showing the seasons, is how long it takes, before Obito becomes a chunin. And at the exact same time Kakashi becomes a Jonin. Chapter 599 also shows this, and again the sakura leafs prove that it is still during spring, same year. No this is clearly wrong. As I said above, read through the chapter 599, page 12 Obito becomes a chunin, and meets with Rin, however, Rin tells him to give a present for Kakashi, since he became a Jonin, it clearly says so on the paper. The seasons shows it's at the same year/season.
This flashback alone - despite no words are seen - actually proves many things in the manga also regarding other issues than this one. So it doesn't seem very random to me. I think Kishi placed these proves in this chapter to make up for some time-line stuff. For instance, the fact that he shows Ibiki proves, when Kisame met Obito the first time.
I am not sure about all the calculations and such, I am just certain, that Kakashi and Obito became Jonin and Chunin the same year, and that Kakashi was chunin for 1 year, before he became a Jonin. This should crush whatever the databooks say, although it will probably be corrected in a fourth databook, so till then it can still raise some doubt.

Oh, I thought you was talking about the time between Kakashi becoming Chuunin and Obito becoming chuunin.
Ok now I understand what you are saying, but we cant possibly calculate how many years it has been by looking at the seasons (which is what your theory is based upon) since they happen every year. It could have been 2 or 3 years later but happened in the same season.

 

[thegame]

Oh, I thought you meant 1 year between Kakashi becoming Chuunin and Obito becoming chuunin.
Ok now I understand what you are saying, but we cant possibly calculate how many years it has been by looking at the seasons (which is what your theory is based upon) since they happen every year. It could have been 2 or 3 years later but happened in the same season.

Yeah, I had the feeling, you would say that, however, how often does Kishi intentionally - and so clearly - show the seasons? Not often. So I believe it's for a purpose, although it could also just be random, who knows.

 

[iSpeak]

Yeah, I had the feeling, you would say that, however, how often does Kishi intentionally - and so clearly - show the seasons? Not often. So I believe it's for a purpose, although it could also just be random, who knows.

That is true, if we had no other background knowledge then I would assume it happened at the same time. But as Minato states Kakashi became Jonin at the start of Gaiden, we can only assume (until Kishi actually states otherwise, or says that either was a mistake) that sever years had passed since then.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I simply miswrote Itachi instead of Shisui. Else my whole point for mentioning it wouldn't make sense. Anyway I see, but linking to threads usually wont make people go there, sorry, anyway point taken.

If you go through chapter 599, although it would seem, I was wrong. It's only a 1 year gap actually. Doesn't change much though. Go through chapter 599, you will see that the chunin exam is in spring (I think it is always during spring, once a year), anyway, when Obito doesn't graduate he starts training. We see images of him training during winter, and then when it's spring again (the Sakura leafs falling from the air illustrates spring, I believe), nonetheless, what Kishi tries to show us, by showing the seasons, is how long it takes, before Obito becomes a chunin. And at the exact same time Kakashi becomes a Jonin. Chapter 599 also shows this, and again the sakura leafs prove that it is still during spring, same year.


No this is clearly wrong. As I said above, read through the chapter 599, page 12 Obito becomes a chunin, and meets with Rin, however, Rin tells him to give a present for Kakashi, since he became a Jonin, it clearly says so on the paper. The seasons shows it's at the same year/season.



This flashback alone - despite no words are seen - actually proves many things in the manga also regarding other issues than this one. So it doesn't seem very random to me. I think Kishi placed these proves in this chapter to make up for some time-line stuff. For instance, the fact that he shows Ibiki proves, when Kisame met Obito the first time.
I am not sure about all the calculations and such, I am just certain, that Kakashi and Obito became Jonin and Chunin the same year, and that Kakashi was chunin for 1 year, before he became a Jonin. This should crush whatever the databooks say, although it will probably be corrected in a fourth databook, so till then it can still raise some doubt.

That's a very good point, plus reps.

That is true, if we had no other background knowledge then I would assume it happened at the same time. But as Minato states Kakashi became Jonin at the start of Gaiden, we can only assume (until Kishi actually states otherwise, or says that either was a mistake) that sever years had passed since then.

Look, its fairly certain based off what the game just proved, that in the entire flashback of ch 599:
1.nowhere is it stated how long the flashback is occurring, is it all just one year, two or more
2. Kakashi became a chuunin first, obito failed.
3. Obito tried again, eventually he became a chuunin

Obito's graduation age was given in the second databook. The second. Databooks have stated outdated things, that get disproven in the manga, the newer databooks improve upon them. Seriously, if something is not making logical sense like this then disregard it.
The 3rd databook says and i quote:

'After dropping out of the record books, Madara puts on a mask and moves into action as Tobi'

For Nagato's character:

'In order to protect his friends, he opts to awaken his rinnegan'.

Many things, especially when they were written years ago like in the 2nd databook, need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

The reason kishi never edited ch 599 in the volume is because he's unaware of naruto nerds on the net who still cling to the 2nd databook like a divine text while reading recent manga, lol.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Bump.
@ everyone: another proof just came to mind. In this scan:

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Itachi is stated to be 'barely 4 years old'.
This can help. Let's see, Itachi's age at part 2=21

16 years ago, the kyuubi attacked. 21-16= 5 (itachi was 5 during the kyuubi attack)

When he was 4, the ninja war was in progress, so 5-4=1.

A year after the end of the 3rd shinobi world war, the kyuubi attacked.

Since Kakashi was 14 during the attack, that means when kakashi was 13 the 3rd ninja war was taking place.

But that's not all. Carefully read what Tobi said:

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'During the 3rd shinobi world war, Itachi, barely four years old, witnessed countless people slaughtered in cold blood'

During the 3rd shinobi world war, Itachi was 4 years old. Meaning during, or for the duration of.

What this scan says is , really: 'for the duration of the 3rd shinobi world war, Itachi was 4 years old'
Meaning the 3rd shinobi wolrd war only lasted for a year. Here's the definition of 'during':
Throughout the course or duration of

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There is a second definition, but it cannot apply. Because Tobi just said that during the 3rd war, Itachi was 4.

Had it been said: 'itachi got wounded during the 3rd shinobi world war', this can mean at any time in the shinobi war and does'nt specify time. But when it says 'during the war, itachi was 4 years old', it HAS to mean 'for the duration of'.

In other words, its just been proven that the 3rd shinobi world war lasted less than a year, while Itachi was 4. And the battle of the Kannabi bridge occured in the same war, meaning Kakashi was 13, and therefore the same age as Obito.

P.S: This is confirmed when Tobi says that for a 4 year old, war is hell. Meaning Itachi was only 4 years old while the war happened, not less or more.

 

[Almighty Ra]

Great theory and very informative read