This may be very controversial but...

-Punk-

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This is such an annoying topic Zzz m let's see here :
I think it goes both ways , but ! but while girls can make the easier choice of who they want , a guy can also make that choice but a rejection is more likely to happen for us than to girls .

Now , when it comes to *** , some have it easy & others don't , Many guys can't please their women in bed & others can , girls don't have that much of a problem since most guys are fast & weak when it comes to the trigger.

When it comes to both topics , everyone has a little bit of both , what do you think , am i in the ball park ? .

BTW , I get what you are saying , this are just my :
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~Hebi Terumi~

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Tradition is all but forgotten in this day and age unless you live a tribal life. This is the only tradition you hear of and see day to day.

Tradition is definitely not forgotten. The fact that women don't approach their mates as often as males do, is evidence of that. However, I've noticed that more and more women (that I know) approach the guys that they like. So, in some cases it's definitely turning around.

But men don't turn down someone because they don't look like a super model. I've seen and heard many cases when guys get turned down because they aren't vain enough to go to the gym all the time and flex in front of a mirror all day.

But, this kind of goes against your original post. How can men turn down someone if they're the ones asking? This insinuates that the men are the ones being asked and not the females. And, while I'm sure there are cases of men getting turned down, how many men do you know that are asking "heavier" chicks out, who aren't also heavy men themselves. Also, if you go to the gym, you don't have to check yourself out in the mirror all the time. Going to the gym to maintain a healthy physique is fine enough.


A woman who approaches a man is seen to be more outgoing and confident.

Not all men think that way though. There are a number of men who feel that they should ask the woman. Not the other way around. Because, of "tradition". As silly as that notion may be, it's the truth for some men. (But, not all) Some as you say would find that "outgoing and confident", but there are those who definitely wouldn't.

Girls have it easier because they are picky. They dump guys because of the way they dress or they are interested in a sport she isn't... Men tend to have a far more meaningful and logical reason to turn someone down , girls come across as being turned off by anything these days...

I feel you and I have been generalizing a bit. When you and I say "girls do this" and "guys do this", it feels as though we're lumping them all into one group, which I know isn't the intention.

Not sure whether to be proud of that or not...[/QUOTE]

I definitely meant it as a comment =D
You've brought him an interesting discussion. And, while, I can't say a similar thread has never been brought up, at least yours doesn't seem as heavily skewed (in the male direction) as the other ones. In addition you've refrained from bad mouthing either party with profanity.
 

24 12 11 to troll

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Tradition is definitely not forgotten. The fact that women don't approach their mates as often as males do, is evidence of that. However, I've noticed that more and more women (that I know) approach the guys that they like. So, in some cases it's definitely turning around.
Tradition is a thing of the past in this case. I literally just said that prior to the quoted statement.

But, this kind of goes against your original post. How can men turn down someone if they're the ones asking? This insinuates that the men are the ones being asked and not the females. And, while I'm sure there are cases of men getting turned down, how many men do you know that are asking "heavier" chicks out, who aren't also heavy men themselves. Also, if you go to the gym, you don't have to check yourself out in the mirror all the time. Going to the gym to maintain a healthy physique is fine enough.
For men who go to the gym ; it's not very healthy to tear apart muscles is it? Muscular hypertrophy is caused by initial destruction of muscle fibres ; hardly call that healthy. Muscle mass only brings advantages of strength and attracting narrow minded women.
I originally meant dump ; my mind probably drifted when I said "turn down".

Not all men think that way though. There are a number of men who feel that they should ask the woman. Not the other way around. Because, of "tradition". As silly as that notion may be, it's the truth for some men. (But, not all) Some as you say would find that "outgoing and confident", but there are those who definitely wouldn't.
I already knew this.

I feel you and I have been generalizing a bit. When you and I say "girls do this" and "guys do this", it feels as though we're lumping them all into one group, which I know isn't the intention.

We're not generalising though..
Not sure whether to be proud of that or not...


I definitely meant it as a comment =D
You've brought him an interesting discussion. And, while, I can't say a similar thread has never been brought up, at least yours doesn't seem as heavily skewed (in the male direction) as the other ones. In addition you've refrained from bad mouthing either party with profanity.

I try not to offend people unless someone crosses the line...
 
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Hunty

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Actually, Gay guys have it waaaaaaaay worse! LOL They first need to jump the biggest hurdle...."Is he even attracted to men?"

Say that the other guy is.. Gay men can be(and usually are) far more judgmental when it comes to courting. You think women are picky? OMG I have seen some of the worst rejections come from gay men and women for the most minute reasons:

His car seat had too much clutter on it. Not a match. His house isn't as big as I thought it would be. Next?, His income isn't to my standards. He's too short, too tall, too skinny, too fat, too light skinned, too dark, not in the same social background.

I could keep going.

How did you know? This is exactly what we do.. You freaking gay!

You're not allowed to know out secrets!
 

Hunty

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Actually, Gay guys have it waaaaaaaay worse! LOL They first need to jump the biggest hurdle...."Is he even attracted to men?"

Say that the other guy is.. Gay men can be(and usually are) far more judgmental when it comes to courting. You think women are picky? OMG I have seen some of the worst rejections come from gay men and women for the most minute reasons:

His car seat had too much clutter on it. Not a match. His house isn't as big as I thought it would be. Next?, His income isn't to my standards. He's too short, too tall, too skinny, too fat, too light skinned, too dark, not in the same social background.

I could keep going.

How did you know? This is exactly what we do.. You freaking gay!

You're not allowed to know our secrets!
 

Aim64C

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While a lot of this may be true, the flip side of the coin is women may not initiate most of the things you mentioned but they are expected to maintain what the guys have started.

For example: The dude has to work out and look good enough to approach the lady for a date, ***, etc. but it is expected of the women to, not only look their best, but continue to do so the rest of the relationship. Guys can let themselves go somewhat after they have landed the woman, but if the woman does so she risks him cheating on her or leaving her.

Honestly, I'm not so sure about that.

Numerous studies have shown that women believe physical appearance to be more important to guys than it actually is - and have a distorted view of it.

A girl who is beautiful after hours of preparation will, often, look just as beautiful with tangled hair after waking up in the morning and after gaining a few pounds. The underlying structure is what the man is attracted to more so than the frills.

I think women stress over appearance far too much.

On the other hand - both men and women tend to underestimate how important physical appearance is to women. I've seen countless cases of women running off with a better looking guy. It's much more rare to see a man run off with a better looking woman.

A woman gets a confidence boost from the 'settlement' guy, and there are plenty of single guys who are good looking who know they look better than said 'settlement guy.' If they have a better job and/or have a personality that makes her wet between the legs... it's a very rare girl that will stay with the guy she has. Especially if she's younger than about 28.

Also you have the whole baby thing. We do the deed and our part is done. It is the girls who have to carry that parasite(and I use that as an endearing term)around in their bellies for 9 months....Then labor (oh gawd I am traumatize by what i've seen)

That's why older women, statistically speaking, don't run off with the pool boy. She invites the pool boy inside while the provider is at work and gets both the strong genetics she was looking for and the excellent care provided by her current husband. Since her current husband has only a vague idea of when she is ovulating (even the woman often doesn't know), she regularly mates with him, as well, in order to dominate his time (so he doesn't run off with another woman - at least, not if he wants a legitimate child).

The young girls typically haven't had a taste of the real world, just yet, and will be foolish enough to run off with guys that are fun and exciting but who are horrible husbands. Guys who are decent husbands get a lot more respect, later, after girls have had a reality check and realize that food is a pain in the ass to work for.

When it comes to ***, Yes the guy does the work and it takes longer for a female to climax....no I take that back. A female's climax is largely dependent on how mentally stimulated she is as well as physically. Sure guys can do the deed, Climax and it's over. But the female is looking for more than just "the deed" they need to feel desired and there are things that guys loath doing to a females *** organ that would make them climax in an instant. I will stop there with that point as it is getting a bit steamy for this Forum :sweat:

I'd actually say that this one is a mixed bag.

A guy can screw a teddy-bear for all the same physical satisfaction he gets out of it.

The only unique thing the female adds to the experience is the fact that she can experience pleasure, as well.... the fact that she -should- experience pleasure, as well.

You want to strip the balls out of a guy really fast; tell him that he's bad in bed and that you'd rather rub off on a bar stool than be with him. Fears of premature ejaculation and overall poor sexual performance are very prominent within the male community.

Why?

Because if your girl isn't reaching a climax and a quivering mess for fifteen minutes afterward... with you... what's the probability that she'll turn down a guy who can give her that?

There's a lot of pressure on a guy to perform. And if you actually look into relationships that are successful versus relationships that fail - you'll find that women more frequently leave a relationship because of dissatisfaction with the ***. Men tend to leave the relationship for lifestyle incompatibilities.

So all and all I would say the male has more to do when it comes to the initial courting of the other, but it's the female who has to maintain what is established once she has chosen.

While this will always depend upon the specific relationship... it's my experience that guys are expected to maintain the status quo.

While older women are not -as- needy as younger ones... the fact is that women want to feel needed and desired. That's a sensation the guy is expected to establish and maintain. If the woman feels like interest has been lost - she'll often accept attention from other guys. Interestingly - this acceptance of other men's attention is often intended (initially) to provoke a jealous and possessive response from her partner.

In many cases, if you don't become the possessive prick condemned in feminist media and go reinforce your claim... she decides you're not interested anymore and before you know it, she's running off with some other guy.

Generally - most cultures where there are somewhat more males than females have this problem. Girls don't have to compete for guys nearly like guys have to compete for girls.

The problem is reversed in regions like Australia. Australia's ports are legendary among U.S. servicemen... because the girls, there, are not used to the type of treatment U.S. men are used to having to provide simply to be recognized as alive. Hold doors open. Give a girl flowers. Listen to her and provide intelligent feedback to what she's saying... guys there don't bother with that - if a girl expects that kind of treatment, the guy will just pick up another one because there is no shortage of single females.

Of course... get married to her and bring her back to the U.S. - and now every guy around her treats her like a goddess... then you're not as special anymore.

Seen that happen, too.

It all boils down to this:

A girl has, roughly, 20 years through which she is fertile. Men, fertile for over twice as long, are all trying to convince women within this time-frame to shack up with them and accept the carrying of a few 'parasites.' Then, they are expected to be able to keep the female entertained while providing for the family.

The woman simply has to be sure she doesn't shack up with an abusive person or one who will load her up with more parasites than he can afford. Even if he flips out and leaves because she refuses to be barefoot and pregnant - he is still legally forced to pay child support - even if she is cohabitating with another man.

In the U.S. - it's primarily the men competing for the women.

That's not to downplay the role women have in a relationship - or the expectations that are placed upon them... but it's generally the guy who is expected to handle the relationship and convince the girl he's worth being with. Again - in the U.S.
 

24 12 11 to troll

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Honestly, I'm not so sure about that.

Numerous studies have shown that women believe physical appearance to be more important to guys than it actually is - and have a distorted view of it.

A girl who is beautiful after hours of preparation will, often, look just as beautiful with tangled hair after waking up in the morning and after gaining a few pounds. The underlying structure is what the man is attracted to more so than the frills.

I think women stress over appearance far too much.

On the other hand - both men and women tend to underestimate how important physical appearance is to women. I've seen countless cases of women running off with a better looking guy. It's much more rare to see a man run off with a better looking woman.

A woman gets a confidence boost from the 'settlement' guy, and there are plenty of single guys who are good looking who know they look better than said 'settlement guy.' If they have a better job and/or have a personality that makes her wet between the legs... it's a very rare girl that will stay with the guy she has. Especially if she's younger than about 28.



That's why older women, statistically speaking, don't run off with the pool boy. She invites the pool boy inside while the provider is at work and gets both the strong genetics she was looking for and the excellent care provided by her current husband. Since her current husband has only a vague idea of when she is ovulating (even the woman often doesn't know), she regularly mates with him, as well, in order to dominate his time (so he doesn't run off with another woman - at least, not if he wants a legitimate child).

The young girls typically haven't had a taste of the real world, just yet, and will be foolish enough to run off with guys that are fun and exciting but who are horrible husbands. Guys who are decent husbands get a lot more respect, later, after girls have had a reality check and realize that food is a pain in the ass to work for.



I'd actually say that this one is a mixed bag.

A guy can screw a teddy-bear for all the same physical satisfaction he gets out of it.

The only unique thing the female adds to the experience is the fact that she can experience pleasure, as well.... the fact that she -should- experience pleasure, as well.

You want to strip the balls out of a guy really fast; tell him that he's bad in bed and that you'd rather rub off on a bar stool than be with him. Fears of premature ejaculation and overall poor sexual performance are very prominent within the male community.

Why?

Because if your girl isn't reaching a climax and a quivering mess for fifteen minutes afterward... with you... what's the probability that she'll turn down a guy who can give her that?

There's a lot of pressure on a guy to perform. And if you actually look into relationships that are successful versus relationships that fail - you'll find that women more frequently leave a relationship because of dissatisfaction with the ***. Men tend to leave the relationship for lifestyle incompatibilities.



While this will always depend upon the specific relationship... it's my experience that guys are expected to maintain the status quo.

While older women are not -as- needy as younger ones... the fact is that women want to feel needed and desired. That's a sensation the guy is expected to establish and maintain. If the woman feels like interest has been lost - she'll often accept attention from other guys. Interestingly - this acceptance of other men's attention is often intended (initially) to provoke a jealous and possessive response from her partner.

In many cases, if you don't become the possessive prick condemned in feminist media and go reinforce your claim... she decides you're not interested anymore and before you know it, she's running off with some other guy.

Generally - most cultures where there are somewhat more males than females have this problem. Girls don't have to compete for guys nearly like guys have to compete for girls.

The problem is reversed in regions like Australia. Australia's ports are legendary among U.S. servicemen... because the girls, there, are not used to the type of treatment U.S. men are used to having to provide simply to be recognized as alive. Hold doors open. Give a girl flowers. Listen to her and provide intelligent feedback to what she's saying... guys there don't bother with that - if a girl expects that kind of treatment, the guy will just pick up another one because there is no shortage of single females.

Of course... get married to her and bring her back to the U.S. - and now every guy around her treats her like a goddess... then you're not as special anymore.

Seen that happen, too.

It all boils down to this:

A girl has, roughly, 20 years through which she is fertile. Men, fertile for over twice as long, are all trying to convince women within this time-frame to shack up with them and accept the carrying of a few 'parasites.' Then, they are expected to be able to keep the female entertained while providing for the family.

The woman simply has to be sure she doesn't shack up with an abusive person or one who will load her up with more parasites than he can afford. Even if he flips out and leaves because she refuses to be barefoot and pregnant - he is still legally forced to pay child support - even if she is cohabitating with another man.

In the U.S. - it's primarily the men competing for the women.

That's not to downplay the role women have in a relationship - or the expectations that are placed upon them... but it's generally the guy who is expected to handle the relationship and convince the girl he's worth being with. Again - in the U.S.

You are my hero!!!
( i disagree with the teddy bear remark though )
 

Vilvake

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I agree with some of what you said, but a couple of those points could apply to both genders. That aside, it really annoys me that, in general, more is expected of men then women. Some of my somewhat related threads:



 

Ψ Veritas Ψ

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I Completely agree, infact i'd say i was just as hot/if not hotter than Ryan Reynolds lol and a whole lot smarter at the time when i started feeling this kind of thing - but like you say i was one of those extremely shy guys "due to the way i was raised" so despite the fact that most women practically gave me the eye, i never could approach them - and due to me being so intimidated made me even more "unapproachable" but the fact that Women almost never approach a guy made it even more impossible - im ashamed to say i struggled a lot in my younger years, and lost a lot of good years "whom im sure most girls wouldve loved to have been with me" all their LOSS because they are just too female, why cant a woman step up once in a while and make the move, WHY does everything have to fall on the guy - hes the guy, he has to do this, he has to do that blah blah blah what a great loss for all those good looking, kind hearted, smart intelligent, talented Shy guys out there and to the girls who lose them because of their stupidity

Anyway, thankfully after 19 i became a real ladies man - just needed getting used to it, the first try was hardest, after that it got easier infact it made me feel awesome lol.
 
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Rorasa

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Yeah, please don't lump me together with girls who only go for guys with good looks.
 

EnDash

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i agree that there are many girls like that, believing that guys should "win" the girls heart and the girl only needs to accept his affection if she will. but if you ask me i don't want to date girls that are that simple, theres nothing wrong with believing it but i personally prefer open minded girls who do what feels right rather then what social conventions tell them to do.

why do you have to make a date only 3 days after getting her number? because you look desperate? ofcourse you are you don't have a girlfriend and you are trying to get one, waiting 3 days won't change that. no *** on the first date or only after 3/5 dates? i say go for what you'r guts tell you, maybe you click immediatly, maybe you need sometime to get accostumed to each other.

i admit those girls are a rarity, but i think it's better then to live by imaginary rules in a relationship.
 

Senju Bean

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Women are picker but at the same time, looks counts more for women then they do for men. That is actually more unfair since it's very hard to change looks. I have a male friend who worked on his personality(mostly humor and charisma), in addition to some gym time, and all of the sudden girls wanted to be around him. A female friend of mine, on the other hand, didn't receive that much attention until after she got plastic surgery.
 
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