This Flashback Has Ruined the Hashi/Madara story for me.

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AzureCicada

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The flashback made Hashirama for me. Its nice seeing his character through situations, the way he saw things, his personality more.

It only slightly killed Madara for him- i still really like him but idk i can't see him the same like i use to. But seeing him without the corruptness is good.
 

hamer34

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I said in the post. The original character had so much going on inside his head, he was being betrayed by his own clan who he respected, he should still be grieving over his brother, he still had unfinished rivalry with Hashirama, he fought for Hokage role and his own people accused him of starting to restart trouble (where was this in the manga? this was pretty interesting.) We're seeing only minor facial expressions of what his emotions should be at this point.

In my head, Madara was the wise, legendary ninja that the legend made him out to be. And he really should be as well, it's just dampening his character into just another arrogant Uchiha douche. The random, seemingly out of character crazy smile at the end, the sudden 'oh and im turning evil now too because thats the reasonable response' in my opinion the Madara we have seen does not have enough motivation to turn into a raging psychopath. He has been betrayed and made second best but the logical thing to do is just respectively leave the village and say 'this place isn't for me, the Uchiha clan are pathetic backstabbers and have no honour' and just leave. Now he's going all cliche crazy psychopath sharingan look and it's just embarrassing.

That's why Kishimoto should just leave the legends as legends. He's just domesticated them and he clearly does not have the manga space/patience to expand the character well. It's a thing called ambiguity, the less said about them and the less we know the more mystical and impressive they are.

well you know the sharringan turns people mad, his heart was filled with love now that the village was born and then filled with hate after he that tobirama would try to massacre all the uchias and that his clan still wouldn't belive in him. so that is why he turned into a phsycopath, i don't know what to say about the facial expressions, as a child he was much more expressive but now he is cool headed even when filled with rage, the smile well it looked kinda dumb but i guess he's crazy so
and plus legends never live up to what they actualy are, still madara had to come back, he is the main villan, it's not like kishi thought this up on na afternoon, so what's the problema with some backstory now that we know his personality anyways?
edit: and if he is simply just a legend that we know nothing about doesn't that make him more one dimentional?----
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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yeah I will agree that it felt a bit rushed, I wished to have seen Izuna battle and Madara's/Hashi's father

but Kishi did that with the edo summons as well to save time, not exclusively within flashbacks

He's retelling the story as quickly as possible so that he can reveal the true fight between Madara and Hashirama
but you've said it yourself. He's trying to retell it quickly, yet it is taking 6+ chapters to tell a story we already know and yet it still feels rushed? There's something up there. It's contradictory.

Still, i'm not trying to make anyone else stop enjoying this flashback or anything, if you're avidly following it, great- im a little jealous even :'D but i'm just personally disappointed. I mean a lot of people don't like Kabuto's backstory either when I think it's one of the greatest so far :)
 

hamer34

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but you've said it yourself. He's trying to retell it quickly, yet it is taking 6+ chapters to tell a story we already know and yet it still feels rushed? There's something up there. It's contradictory.

Still, i'm not trying to make anyone else stop enjoying this flashback or anything, if you're avidly following it, great- im a little jealous even :'D but i'm just personally disappointed. I mean a lot of people don't like Kabuto's backstory either when I think it's one of the greatest so far :)
also love kabuto's back story
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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edit: and if he is simply just a legend that we know nothing about doesn't that make him more one dimentional?----

Not at all :')

The point i'm making is- by making him ambigious and surrounding him in secrecy...he could be the most complex, amazing character imaginable. He could also be an arrogant Uchiha idiot who got in the way of world peace, it's ENTIRELY down to you. I find that so much more interesting, but hey if Kishimoto has other plans for the guy then I guess Kishimoto has other plans for the guy yknow? Just wish he'd go about it in a better manner.
 

hamer34

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Not at all :')

The point i'm making is- by making him ambigious and surrounding him in secrecy...he could be the most complex, amazing character imaginable. He could also be an arrogant Uchiha idiot who got in the way of world peace, it's ENTIRELY down to you. I find that so much more interesting, but hey if Kishimoto has other plans for the guy then I guess Kishimoto has other plans for the guy yknow? Just wish he'd go about it in a better manner.

just to clear something out
could that work even if he was revived with edo or not
and plus IMO i think that the backstory makes him more relatable



this argumente kind of reminds me of tim burton's joker and cristopher nolan's joker
one we know all about and it makes him relatable so we love him even if he is a jackass
and the other we know nothing about and it makes him misterious and that's why we love him

i can see where you are comming from
 

Zol

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I said in the post. The original character had so much going on inside his head, he was being betrayed by his own clan who he respected, he should still be grieving over his brother, he still had unfinished rivalry with Hashirama, he fought for Hokage role and his own people accused him of starting to restart trouble (where was this in the manga? this was pretty interesting.) We're seeing only minor facial expressions of what his emotions should be at this point.

In my head, Madara was the wise, legendary ninja that the legend made him out to be. And he really should be as well, it's just dampening his character into just another arrogant Uchiha douche. The random, seemingly out of character crazy smile at the end, the sudden 'oh and im turning evil now too because thats the reasonable response' in my opinion the Madara we have seen does not have enough motivation to turn into a raging psychopath. He has been betrayed and made second best but the logical thing to do is just respectively leave the village and say 'this place isn't for me, the Uchiha clan are pathetic backstabbers and have no honour' and just leave. Now he's going all cliche crazy psychopath sharingan look and it's just embarrassing.

That's why Kishimoto should just leave the legends as legends. He's just domesticated them and he clearly does not have the manga space/patience to expand the character well. It's a thing called ambiguity, the less said about them and the less we know the more mystical and impressive they are.



"Wise man"? We always knew Madara was the bad guy, the one who wanted to destroy the Leaf, and Hashirama was the good one that stopped him. That's also pretty much everything we knew about them for 70% of the whole manga. Madara's personality upon being brought back in the war was not surprising, as we already assumed he is "evil".

The flashback made him less onedimensional when we had thought all the time (which was obviously one of the points Kishi tried to make).
 

Lightbringer

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but you've said it yourself. He's trying to retell it quickly, yet it is taking 6+ chapters to tell a story we already know and yet it still feels rushed? There's something up there. It's contradictory.

Still, i'm not trying to make anyone else stop enjoying this flashback or anything, if you're avidly following it, great- im a little jealous even :'D but i'm just personally disappointed. I mean a lot of people don't like Kabuto's backstory either when I think it's one of the greatest so far :)

Well I can't say I'm totally happy with the direction, but I think the flashbacks are necessary. It feels rushed because he doesn't show the fights mainly, but if he did that, it would make the flashbacks even longer. As a whole, it's pretty decent and explains a lot imo.

Kabuto's was perfectly paced, but that's because there wasn't as much to tell in the first place, except that he was an orphan, became a spy, and was tricked into killing his mother and joined Orochimaru so that he could "find himself".

Madara's flashback focuses on the strife of the clan and the relationship between him, Hashirama, and Tobirama and how their ideals and experiences conflict.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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"Wise man"? We always knew Madara was the bad guy, the one who wanted to destroy the Leaf, and Hashirama was the good one that stopped him. That's also pretty much everything we knew about them for 70% of the whole manga. Madara's personality upon being brought back in the war was not surprising, as we already assumed he is "evil".

The flashback made him less onedimensional when we had thought all the time (which was obviously one of the points Kishi tried to make).
Nope. We had been told that the two were equals and led to believe their clans were perfect equals too. Hashirama makes the village and The Uchiha turn against Madara. That was what we were told, that in no way makes Madara the definitive evil. There was clear reason why he would turn this way, because he was betrayed and victimised. I used to dislike Hashirama because of it, but that's before he was revived.

Also you can be wise and 'evil' at the same time.
 

Zol

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Nope. We had been told that the two were equals and led to believe their clans were perfect equals too. Hashirama makes the village and The Uchiha turn against Madara. That was what we were told, that in no way makes Madara the definitive evil. There was clear reason why he would turn this way, because he was betrayed and victimised. I used to dislike Hashirama because of it, but that's before he was revived.

Also you can be wise and 'evil' at the same time.


Not really. Calling someone "wise" commonly means you think of him as a good guy. If you use terms like "knowledgeable", "intelligent" or else, it's a different story, but I've yet to read the word " wise" in any piece of fiction when it refers to a bad person. The only way that appeas is like "he was wise, but then turned insane" or something to that extend...

You really have a different view than most people, because the way the story of Hashirama and Madara was told, it was intended for us to sympathize with Hashi and think of Madara as the bad one. I don't know how you could dislike Hashi and go with Madara. That's like sympathizing with Sauron and disliking the people whom brought him down...
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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Not really. Calling someone "wise" commonly means you think of him as a good guy. If you use terms like "knowledgeable", "intelligent" or else, it's a different story, but I've yet to read the word " wise" in any piece of fiction when it refers to a bad person. The only way that appeas is like "he was wise, but then turned insane" or something to that extend...

You really have a different view than most people, because the way the story of Hashirama and Madara was told, it was intended for us to sympathize with Hashi and think of Madara as the bad one. I don't know how you could dislike Hashi and go with Madara. That's like sympathizing with Sauron and disliking the people whom brought him down...

I disagree. We didn't used to know their personalities. Thinking of Madara as the bad guy just because he was the Uchiha is pretty narrow minded. We were told that they were always equals but it's Madara who had the tough end of the bargain and had his clan turn against him, he was the victim and thus I sympathised for him.

Disliking Hashirama was a personal thing. I don't like OP characters and we knew nothing about him at the time. He always came across as stern in basically every picture and mention we saw so it wasn't tough to guess that he was just as cold and to blame for the Uchiha/Senju fallout as anyone else. I don't mind him now.
 

BazzBee

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I hate FLASHBACK Urghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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I hate FLASHBACK Urghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

What don't you like about it? I loved Madara from the second he was introduced and now that we're actually meeting the guy and seeing his backstory....eurgh, not so much D:
 

Strata Uchiha

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The story between Hashi and Madara is expanded upon at long last! Still...

- I wanted to see Hashirama and Tobirama use there signature jutsu (Water Jutsu, Space/Time, and Mokuton)

- Where Hashirama went to acquire Sage Mode.

- And of course Madara's strength as well.

It was said that Madara and Hashirama's fight lasted 24 hours. Kishimoto could of at least shown us part of that fight.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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The story between Hashi and Madara is expanded upon at long last! Still...

- I wanted to see Hashirama and Tobirama use there signature jutsu (Water Jutsu, Space/Time, and Mokuton)

- Where Hashirama went to acquire Sage Mode.

- And of course Madara's strength as well.

It was said that Madara and Hashirama's fight lasted 24 hours. Kishimoto could of at least shown us part of that fight.
I think that this flashback may be wrapping up too early to show us any of that... too bad they were focusing on all the stuff we already knew :/
 
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