Thinking Kakashi can take itachi or sasuke (with logic, reason and evidence)

[Bogard]

Kamui can absorb Amaterasu anyway, so i don't think Amaterasu is the big deal here unless it touches a part of Kakashis body that Kakashi can't see

 

[pantelis2006]

Lol, I'm not considering Itachi a fool to waste chakra. That's exactly why Itachi wouldn't use Susanoo in the first place.

If Totsuka's range and everything is so great, why didn't Itachi use Totsuka against Nagato FROM THE BEGINNING? Nagato was obviously an easier target than Kakashi would be, since he couldn't even move really. Instead, he managed to stab him only later and if it wasn't for Naruto and Bee, he would be destroyed before he could manage that (though he would regenerate his edo body, that's a different topic).

Because he initially tried to attack Naruto with amaterasu. Then he burnt Nagato. Dont you remenber it? He already started using the flames that not extinguish, then got genjutsued by Shishiu's eye, then burnt Nagato, then started explaining. He didnt use Sussano'ο because he got him with amaterasu. Simple as that.

What does sealing speed have to do with Amaterasu?

Your point is that amaterasu requires time and is not instant. Itachi can perform it very fast and with duration, such as Sasuke. Kakashi can Kamui some flames. What if Itachi doesnt stop using it? Kakashi's Kamui is instant, obviously. Its not the solution.

His finger genjutsu everyone is so amazed with only ever managed to catch early Shippuuden Naruto in it. There's zero proof someone as experienced and intelligent as Kakashi would fall for it as well. Or do you want me to say that Kakashi could catch Itachi in the genjutsu he used against Sakura on the beginning of part I?
And I already stated how to avoid Tsukyomi - avoid eye contact (problematic, yes, but not impossible) and increase distance.

Non sound genjutsu is not a problem for Itachi. He countered Kurenai's jutsu easily. Sharingan gives the edge.
Last time I checked in databook 3, Itachi had "5" in genjutsu. His genjutsu is flawless. You seem to believe that this is only because of Tsukoyomi. Thats not true. He used genjutsu from the start of the fight (Craws, etc.). He used genjutsu against Bee, he broke out cause he has perfect control of his bijuu. Thats a proof that his illusions are not weak.

Increase distance and avoiding looking in Itachi's eyes. So, all he does is defending from the beginning of the fight? Thats the plan? Doesnt that put him in a difficult position? Additionally, Kakashi had a tough time reading his movements and following his seals. How will he predict his movements, while looking at his feet? How will he attack? What if Itachi rushes towards him?

 

[Turson]

Because anime is non-canon and manga shows events panel by panel and not continuously, it's possible that Amaterasu's "way of travel" was just omitted between the panels.

The fact that some other panels show Amaterasu moving is a proof of this. Unless you want to say that sometimes Amaterasu is instant and sometimes is not.

I doubt manga would skip it all the time. Ama was moving only if it missed its original target, it was always appearing first.

 

[Mrmojo8484]

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Now when I look at it closely, yeah, you might be right about it being a body flicker but I'm not 100% convinced about that, either.

Still, the point I made is valid. Raikage without Sharingan's perception noticed incoming Amaterasu. Obito, with Sharingan, didn't notice Kamui in front of him.
Kakashi's perception is better than Raikage's thanks to Sharingan. Considering the fact that Kamui is instant, it can warp Ama flame.



Because anime is non-canon and manga shows events panel by panel and not continuously, it's possible that Amaterasu's "way of travel" was just omitted between the panels.

The fact that some other panels show Amaterasu moving is a proof of this. Unless you want to say that sometimes Amaterasu is instant and sometimes is not.

Great point dude.

And again, Im not here to make the hottest threads. Im here to prove that kakashi has a good chance of beating either of them. He has improved so much since part 1 and the funny thing is, he can only get better.

 

[Takos]

Because he initially tried to attack Naruto with amaterasu. Then he burnt Nagato. Dont you remenber it? He already started using the flames that not extinguish, then got genjutsued by Shishiu's eye, then burnt Nagato, then started explaining. He didnt use Sussano'ο because he got him with amaterasu. Simple as that.

Itachi is smart enough to know that Amaterasu won't do anything against an Edo Zombie. It therefore is absolutely wrong to say "He got him with Amaterasu". Someone as intelligent as Itachi most likely knew from the beginning that he will need to seal Nagato, yet he didn't do it at the very beginning even though Nagato's chances of avoiding Totsuka, according to you, were far less than Kakashi's would be. This proves that Totsuka can only be applied at certain situations.

Your point is that amaterasu requires time and is not instant. Itachi can perform it very fast and with duration, such as Sasuke. Kakashi can Kamui some flames. What if Itachi doesnt stop using it? Kakashi's Kamui is instant, obviously. Its not the solution.

Kakashi actually Kamui'd two Sasuke's Susanoo arrows, not one, which means that he can either use it one after another or that he can use a Kamui big enough to suck both of them. This will work here, too. Kakashi will notice whether Itachi's using a single Amaterasu burst or a continuous "beam" and use Kamui big enough to handle the situation. But yes, it is possible that continuous Amaterasu would beat Kakashi.

Anyway, all the time we talk about Kamui protecting Kakashi from Amaterasu. How about the other way? What does Itachi have that could protect him from Kamui?

Non sound genjutsu is not a problem for Itachi. He countered Kurenai's jutsu easily. Sharingan gives the edge.
Last time I checked in databook 3, Itachi had "5" in genjutsu. His genjutsu is flawless. You seem to believe that this is only because of Tsukoyomi. Thats not true. He used genjutsu from the start of the fight (Craws, etc.). He used genjutsu against Bee, he broke out cause he has perfect control of his bijuu. Thats a proof that his illusions are not weak.

The only genjutsu Itachi ever caught Kakashi in is Tsukyomi. He tried another genjutsu, but Kakashi countered it. As you can see, he already at the beginning of Shippuuden could fight against Itachi and "worry about genjutsu", so he more than likely can do it now.

Increase distance and avoiding looking in Itachi's eyes. So, all he does is defending from the beginning of the fight? Thats the plan? Doesnt that put him in a difficult position? Additionally, Kakashi had a tough time reading his movements and following his seals. How will he predict his movements, while looking at his feet? How will he attack? What if Itachi rushes towards him?

When the distance is big enough, Kakashi won't make an eye contact even if he's not looking at Itachi's feet.
Yes, Kakashi had a tough time reading Itachi's movements, but then again, Kakashi managed to create a bunshin twice against Itachi without him realizing that (mizu bunshin i part I, kage bunshin in part II). Itachi had the advantage in this matter in Part I, but current Kakashi is a whole other deal. You also need to remember that Itachi would be cautious about using Tsukyomi against Kakashi, because it might turn out to be a bunshin.

 

[shelke]

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See the manipulated flame shapes in the upper portion of the link you gave me? It's enton. And Itachi obviously didn't want Sasuke to burn like an Eglish muffin man. Come on. lol

Now when I look at it closely, yeah, you might be right about it being a body flicker but I'm not 100% convinced about that, either.

Still, the point I made is valid. Raikage without Sharingan's perception noticed incoming Amaterasu. Obito, with Sharingan, didn't notice Kamui in front of him.
Kakashi's perception is better than Raikage's thanks to Sharingan. Considering the fact that Kamui is instant, it can warp Ama flame.

It's most definitely body flicker. Look at a few pages ahead from the links I gave you, and one of the ninja clarifies it.

It's instant like i told you. Remember what happened with Hachibi? The second Sasuke opened his eye it was burning in flames.

 

[Takos]

See the manipulated flame shapes in the upper portion of the link you gave me? It's enton. And Itachi obviously didn't want Sasuke to burn like an Eglish muffin man. Come on. lol

Lol, now you said it, Itachi can't do Enton. xd

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Also, your argument of Itachi not wanting to burn Sasuke is invalid, as he burns him the next page.

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It's instant like i told you. Remember what happened with Hachibi? The second Sasuke opened his eye it was burning in flames.

As I have already stated, manga shows events panel by panel and not continuously. Amaterasu's travel takes place between the panels. The fact that this is not only speculation is the scene above (about which you said Itachi used Enton xd) and Raikage avoiding Amaterasu.

 

[shelke]

Lol, now you said it, Itachi can't do Enton.

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Also, your argument of Itachi not wanting to burn Sasuke is invalid, as he burns him the next page.

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Since I didn't see the panel before that, I could be wrong. I am only going by what I am seeing. Enton is Amatersu but what a distinct shape. Those flames could have been scattered ones from Amatersu, as I told you I didn't see the panel before it. And he turned off the flames quickly? Which is obvious that he didn't want Sasuke to burn to a crisp? We all know Itachi was holding back.

As I have already stated, manga shows events panel by panel and not continuously. Amaterasu's travel takes place between the panels. The fact that this is not only speculation is the scene above (about which you said Itachi used Enton ) and Raikage avoiding Amaterasu

Raikage avoided it with body flicker. You can see the flickering image of his body left behind, and if you go a couple of pages forward, one ninja says it as well. My opinion in that regard still holds. As for Amatersu being instant. Then it hits the target the second the user uses it, as it shows in these panels that the hachibi didn't have any time to react at all. All these images how a single instant:

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[Takos]

Since I didn't see the panel before that, I could be wrong. I am only going by what I am seeing. Enton is Amatersu but what a distinct shape. Those flames could have been scattered ones from Amatersu, as I told you I didn't see the panel before it. And he turned off the flames quickly? Which is obvious that he didn't want Sasuke to burn to a crisp? We all know Itachi was holding back.

Enton is only Sasuke's domain. Itachi's only known feat regarding Amaterasu control is turning the flames off.

Raikage avoided it with body flicker. You can see the flickering image of his body left behind, and if you go a couple of pages forward, one ninja says it as well. My opinion in that regard still holds. As for Amatersu being instant. Then it hits the target the second the user uses it, as it shows in these panels that the hachibi didn't have any time to react at all. All these images how a single instant:

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You're missing my point. Raikage avoided it with a body flicker, but to do this, he had to notice Amaterasu. In other words, Raikage's perception who doesn't have a Sharingan, is enough to notice Amaterasu strike approaching.

If Raikage's perception is enough, then Kakashi's perception, aided by the Sharingan, can do it even easier. And since Kamui is instant, he can use it to counter Amaterasu.

In other words, as long as Kakashi can notice the attack, he can use Kamui to counter it, because using Kamui takes no time for Kakashi for objects as big as a human body or smaller.

Gotta go to sleep now, so see ya tomorrow maybe.

 

[sdam]

Well if it wasn't because Itachi was that wise, i actually think Kakashi could take him out with Kamui ( Don't see why..!), but he is.. . Why Itachi would beat Kakasi....
Itachi isn't stupid enough to let Kamui work. As soon as he see Kakashi preparing for the use of Kamui, he would just use Susanoo!!.
And the only little change Kakashi has is to use Kamui. If he can't use it.... Than he is pretty much helpless!. I would really love to say that our "Beloved Kakashi Sensei" was stronger than Itachi( Not saying i don't like Itachi!!!). But that would be lying!.

 

[LO3]

One word people - Experience

You didn't say "beat" you said "take". He can "take" anyone on, but not necessarily "beat" anyone.

 

[osba]

kamui - dead.

 

[osba]

Well if it wasn't because Itachi was that wise, i actually think Kakashi could take him out with Kamui ( Don't see why..!), but he is.. . Why Itachi would beat Kakasi....
Itachi isn't stupid enough to let Kamui work. As soon as he see Kakashi preparing for the use of Kamui, he would just use Susanoo!!.
And the only little change Kakashi has is to use Kamui. If he can't use it.... Than he is pretty much helpless!. I would really love to say that our "Beloved Kakashi Sensei" was stronger than Itachi( Not saying i don't like Itachi!!!). But that would be lying!.

aand what is a sussanoo going to do about stuff happening inside his freaking body..?

 

[HadouKage]

"Amaterasu has been avoided a few times; Sasuke Uchiha managed to dodge the flames when Itachi tried focusing on him"(Taken from Narutopeida)

Don't think Kakashi would be able to catch Amaterasu with Kamui =/

 

[shelke]

You're missing my point. Raikage avoided it with a body flicker, but to do this, he had to notice Amaterasu. In other words, Raikage's perception who doesn't have a Sharingan, is enough to notice Amaterasu strike approaching.

If Raikage's perception is enough, then Kakashi's perception, aided by the Sharingan, can do it even easier. And since Kamui is instant, he can use it to counter Amaterasu.

In other words, as long as Kakashi can notice the attack, he can use Kamui to counter it, because using Kamui takes no time for Kakashi for objects as big as a human body or smaller.

Gotta go to sleep now, so see ya tomorrow maybe.

Kakashi's speed is no where near Raikage's. I already posted a link that he barely took care of an arrow a page back with links. Even if he sees it coming, do you think he can avoid something which is instant? Raikage avoided it with a flickering technique, which isn't speed. Kamiu may be instant, but so is Amatersu. See how the Hachibi immediately got burnt:

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Even if I am to take your word for it that Kamui can suck in the flames - there is no proof of Kakashi ever doing that by the way - then how many times will he use it? 6 times tops given his so-so command over the sharingen and his low chakra? Sasuke has EMS, which translates into less Chakra consption and more spamming of Amatersu, arrows. How long with Kakashi dodge these? He will get hit after one kamui. Sasuke an use amatersu with one eye and use his sussano's arrow at the same time. What will he do then? It's over for Kakashi. I can't see him being any where close to Sasuke in this match.

He might - note might - have a small chance against Itachi given his low stamina - he beats Kakshi by a mile with his chakra, of course - and he is also able to harness sharingen's power to the maximum. He is also excellent at genjutsu. And together with yata mirror; this is clearly a one-sided match here as well.

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

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by the way if you can dodge an amaterasu then you can dodge kamui now im gonna drink something sweet and soothe my mind

 

[Takos]

Kakashi's speed is no where near Raikage's. I already posted a link that he barely took care of an arrow a page back with links. Even if he sees it coming, do you think he can avoid something which is instant? Raikage avoided it with a flickering technique, which isn't speed. Kamiu may be instant, but so is Amatersu. See how the Hachibi immediately got burnt:

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I feel like you just don't get it. If Amaterasu was instant, then A wouldn't be able to notice it coming in order to avoid it. Doesn't matter how he avoided it, the fact is he DECIDED to avoid it seeing it COMING. Amaterasu COMING at A means it's NOT instant. I'm not sure if it's possible to make myself more clear than that. If you still reply the same, there's no point in continuing.

I also said already that manga doesn't show event continuously but panel by panel, Amaterasu's travel is somewhere between the panels. The proof for that is two instances of Amaterasu being shown to be travelling.
Really, I'm saying this for third time already, you should have got it by now.

Even if I am to take your word for it that Kamui can suck in the flames - there is no proof of Kakashi ever doing that by the way - then how many times will he use it? 6 times tops given his so-so command over the sharingen and his low chakra?

For once, this part makes sense. Yes, doing Amaterasu continuously will more than likely beat Kakashi. However, you don't take into account the fact that Itachi has low stamina himself, do you have any proof that Itachi won't collapse himself after using Amaterasu 6 times one after one?

But I agree that it's entirely possible Kakashi goes down in this situation. By why do we talk all the time about Kakashi's defense against Amaterasu? How about we now make Kakashi ATTACK for a change and tell me what can Itachi do against Kamui?

Sasuke has EMS, which translates into less Chakra consption and more spamming of Amatersu, arrows. How long with Kakashi dodge these? He will get hit after one kamui. Sasuke an use amatersu with one eye and use his sussano's arrow at the same time. What will he do then? It's over for Kakashi. I can't see him being any where close to Sasuke in this match.

Firs of all I already said I believe Kakashi wouldn't win against EMS Sasuke and I focused on the scenario vs Itachi. Second of all, even though Kakashi would lose this one, he wouldn't get hit just after one Kamui, come on. Current Kakashi can spam Kamui pretty heavily, so saying one Kamui is his limit is out of place.
Still, the same case as against Itachi, Sasuke cannot avoid Kamui in any way. If Kakashi makes his move first, he COULD possibly pull it off and win this one, too.

He might - note might - have a small chance against Itachi given his low stamina - he beats Kakshi by a mile with his chakra, of course - and he is also able to harness sharingen's power to the maximum. He is also excellent at genjutsu. And together with yata mirror; this is clearly a one-sided match here as well.

Itachi's stamina by now inferior to Kakashi's, from what the manga shows us.
Kakashi also can harness Sharingan's power to its possible maximum, unless you mean that Itachi has two Sharingan eyes, so he can use more MS techniques than Kakashi. But as I said, Kakashi has mastered his Sharingan to the furthest possible point given his situation. Yes, Itachi is excellent at genjutsu, but Kakashi was already shown outsmarting him and countering his genjutsu with a kage bunshin. Also, just like Itachi is excellent with genjutsu, Kakashi is excellent with NINjutsu.

As for Yata mirror... it won't protect Itachi from Kamui, because it's transparent - Kakashi can see through Yata and focus his sight on Itachi, behind Yata.

 

[shelke]

I feel like you just don't get it. If Amaterasu was instant, then A wouldn't be able to notice it coming in order to avoid it. Doesn't matter how he avoided it, the fact is he DECIDED to avoid it seeing it COMING. Amaterasu COMING at A means it's NOT instant. I'm not sure if it's possible to make myself more clear than that. If you still reply the same, there's no point in continuing.

I also said already that manga doesn't show event continuously but panel by panel, Amaterasu's travel is somewhere between the panels. The proof for that is two instances of Amaterasu being shown to be travelling.
Really, I'm saying this for third time already, you should have got it by now.

Show me proof that Raikage SAW it coming as you make it sound like. Given by his explanations he did know about flames. He aw Sasuke concentrate his left eye and used a technique to step aside, and barely did so as the scans prove.

For once, this part makes sense. Yes, doing Amaterasu continuously will more than likely beat Kakashi. However, you don't take into account the fact that Itachi has low stamina himself, do you have any proof that Itachi won't collapse himself after using Amaterasu 6 times one after one?

But I agree that it's entirely possible Kakashi goes down in this situation. By why do we talk all the time about Kakashi's defense against Amaterasu? How about we now make Kakashi ATTACK for a change and tell me what can Itachi do against Kamui?

The last time I checked Stamina and Chakra were different. Also, yes, let him attack sussano with something. What does he have? Another point is Sasuke here as well. The thread title puts Kakashi against both. I can't see Kakashi winning against Sasuke, period. Not only does he have a pretty good stamina, but he also has a very good command over his chakra thanks to EMS.

Firs of all I already said I believe Kakashi wouldn't win against EMS Sasuke and I focused on the scenario vs Itachi. Second of all, even though Kakashi would lose this one, he wouldn't get hit just after one Kamui, come on. Current Kakashi can spam Kamui pretty heavily, so saying one Kamui is his limit is out of place.
Still, the same case as against Itachi, Sasuke cannot avoid Kamui in any way. If Kakashi makes his move first, he COULD possibly pull it off and win this one, too.

How many times can he spam Kamiu again? 6 times? make it 8 maybe? Sasuke has no such constraints. He can erect a sussano and keep itachi at bey with arrows. 6 times kamui and he would collapse, leaving nothing but an opening for Sasuke to take him out.

So according to you, Amatersu which is instant can be avoided even though Raikage never avoided it with speed, but Kamui cannot be? lol Why exactly?

Itachi's stamina by now inferior to Kakashi's, from what the manga shows us.
Kakashi also can harness Sharingan's power to its possible maximum, unless you mean that Itachi has two Sharingan eyes, so he can use more MS techniques than Kakashi. But as I said, Kakashi has mastered his Sharingan to the furthest possible point given his situation. Yes, Itachi is excellent at genjutsu, but Kakashi was already shown outsmarting him and countering his genjutsu with a kage bunshin. Also, just like Itachi is excellent with genjutsu, Kakashi is excellent with NINjutsu.

Kakashi cannot and will never be able to harness a sharingen's full power. This fact has been mentioned several times in the manga through Kakashi himself, and even Itachi. Sorry, this point of yours defies what the manga says. As no matter what the blood-line ability, any other user can never harness it fully.

 

[Takos]

Show me proof that Raikage SAW it coming as you make it sound like. Given by his explanations he did know about flames. He aw Sasuke concentrate his left eye and used a technique to step aside, and barely did so as the scans prove.



The last time I checked Stamina and Chakra were different. Also, yes, let him attack sussano with something. What does he have? Another point is Sasuke here as well. The thread title puts Kakashi against both. I can't see Kakashi winning against Sasuke, period. Not only does he have a pretty good stamina, but he also has a very good command over his chakra thanks to EMS.



How many times can he spam Kamiu again? 6 times? make it 8 maybe? Sasuke has no such constraints. He can erect a sussano and keep itachi at bey with arrows. 6 times kamui and he would collapse, leaving nothing but an opening for Sasuke to take him out.

So according to you, Amatersu which is instant can be avoided even though Raikage never avoided it with speed, but Kamui cannot be? lol Why exactly?



Kakashi cannot and will never be able to harness a sharingen's full power. This fact has been mentioned several times in the manga through Kakashi himself, and even Itachi. Sorry, this point of yours defies what the manga says. As no matter what the blood-line ability, any other user can never harness it fully.

I find it dull to talk to you. I say "I don't think Kakashi will win against Sasuke" and you keep on saying "this thread is about Kakashi vs Sasuke, too, lol, Kakashi loses" and try to explain to me in detail why you're right.

Kakashi did not harness Sharingan's power back in Part I. Even on the beginning of Shippuuden, when his MS was much weaker than it is now, it was already stated to be on level of Itachi's MS.

Current Kakashi's MS is more useful to him than Itachi's MS to Itachi, partly due to Kakashi being able to spam it more. Kishi doesn't really care if you don't like this.


By the way, Raikage's dull face expression REALLY emphasizes how terribly difficult it was for him to avoid Amaterasu. xd

Well, I shouldn't expect anything more from someone who was desperate enough to say that Itachi used Enton.

 

[shelke]

I find it dull to talk to you. I say "I don't think Kakashi will win against Sasuke" and you keep on saying "this thread is about Kakashi vs Sasuke, too, lol, Kakashi loses" and try to explain to me in detail why you're right.

Kakashi did not harness Sharingan's power back in Part I. Even on the beginning of Shippuuden, when his MS was much weaker than it is now, it was already stated to be on level of Itachi's MS.

Current Kakashi's MS is more useful to him than Itachi's MS to Itachi, partly due to Kakashi being able to spam it more. Kishi doesn't really care if you don't like this.


By the way, Raikage's dull face expression REALLY emphasizes how terribly difficult it was for him to avoid Amaterasu.

Well, I shouldn't expect anything more from someone who was desperate enough to say that Itachi used Enton.

Oh yes, I misinterpreted one manga point - accepted it as well - while the entirety of your Kakashi using Ms to its fullest is just non-sense if anything else. No where in the manga does it align this fact with what Itachi said, and Kakashi himself admits. But you are right of course.

He cut his arm off and the degenerates face was still dull. Heck, he is lying in his pool of blood after Madara had his way, and his expression is the same. Is this your retort to points? Facial expressions? hahahahahahaha

And I shouldn't expect anything from you. My enton point still pales in comparison to yours - as Itachi can still use amatersu - ; Kakashi using MS to max. Hilarious. And guess what? I am not even an Itachi fan. Great points man.